Competitive Units in 6th

[Hamertime95]

Was just thinking that although some armies have sure competitive units that must be used in play because they are that much better we don't really have any must haves at least not from what I've seen.

 

So what are your guys favourite competitive units and how do you use them and kit them out to be competitive? :)

[company veteran]

i think the stormraven is very competitive..

 

personaly though.. i love sternguard with a pod. they are fantastic at killing priority targets, and , if well placed can be quite survivable.

 

i think the BA on the whole can be a competitive list.. but its very far from uber.

[John Rainbow]

+1 for the Storm Raven

 

Priests are also pretty decent, as is our ability to take Divination.

[Taranis]

I ran a Fragioso last week and I love it. It's a must for at least the next 4-5 battles.

(Furioso, fragcannon, heavy flamer, magna grapple, pod.)

Deepstrike turn 1, deploy within 6", free facing to optimize av 13 / Templates.

Very good was my experience.

[nurglespuss]

Death company... even in small squads (with jump packs) these guys are so surviveable, with power armour, an invulnerable save, and the easy re-rolls from charging with a chaplain attached etc.

 

I know they are expensive, but they are unit killers.

[Bloodsurfer]

Invulnerable save for Death Company???

[Drunken Angel]

Bloodsurfer, on 13 Feb 2013 - 06:58, said:

Invulnerable save for Death Company???

I think he is refering to the feel no pain 5+ roll in the DC as a form of invun. I Have played another tourney recently and had a mixed bag. It was escalation 1000 1500 and 2000. I used Mephiston in all three lists.

At the lower points levels I used RAS and short range Baals and frankly I struggled against guard and codex marine and chaos marine shooting and helldrakes. I had not taken any flyers.

At 2000 I took 2 Ravens an Aegis defence line, 30 marines with 2 attacks bikes and a forge world Caestus.

Even though I was on the lower tables by then I did run into a very competent dark eldar player. It was ironic my biggest bane dark eldar became a walkover. I did not even have to get Mephiston out there was nothing for him to fight.

I feel the list would have been as effective with 3 ravens as 2 and a Caestus.

The competitive units I have found are most useful are

The attack bikes, these tend to push peoples heavy armour back no-one wants you seizing and getting the alpha strike on their land raiders with the bikes. This keeps things on the other side of the board for the ravens. They prioritise destroying the anti flyer batteries. Either them or a suicide melta squad.

The Ravens ... they must have an aegis defence line to ensure you get them on the board early. Three ravens at once take out the anti flyer stuff and then get stuck into all the targets on the ground.

Lots of jump pack marines, They are mobile and they score have plenty of them you can always fill the ravens with combat squads. They are not assault guys anymore but they are still decent where they excell is mobility and scoring. They are very capable at cleaning out shot up squads behind the ravens. Make sure though that you keep them away denying combat, only engage after the ravens have been past.

Outflanking Baals if you have 1 or 2 coming in the same turn as the ravens you are in a good position, its important to remember that BA have an AV13 fast tank that scores in the scouring (a Caestus assault ram scores too if you use one) and ravens and vindis are scoring in big guns never tire, great units.

Death company, take ten give them 2 infernus pistols and bolters or even a fist place in a drop pod then send them into the opponents lines. DC are a distration unit and take the heat off your jump packers on your side of the board or even take out the anti air. Tie things up till the ravens arrive.

Librarians, give him shield and blood lance, put one in the middle raven cast shield and never have to jink if another of your flyers is nearby taking cover from shield even better. The 5+ is the only protection for the troops inside if the flyer does crash its better than nothing

The intent is to put the alpha strike on the second turn the aegis defence line is central to this. Protect it, even to the point of putting 2 seperate units on it with comabt squads. Keep it hidden and be prepared to leave it once the reserves are on.

With mobility you dont defend objectives. When threatened by the opponent you move away deny CC let a flyer shoot them then move shoot and assault back in. Jump packs excell at this.

I will touch on the Caestus Assault Ram too, Its awesome nothing is as satisfying as zooming onto the board tank shocking troops out of the way plowing into a light vehicle blowing it up then stopping on the other side to drop a large blast melta template on something else.

The rams movement phase using ram is vector strike on crack. Dreads, orc truks, ravengers, venoms any AV12 or less gets smashed. You just rinse and repeat all the way across the board, being able to hit things in your movement phase doubles the rams usefullness. Against hordes it is also impossible to deny a base area for the following ravens who can place a base on the path the ram plows.

Yes it I expect comments about how OP it sounds and its a flying block of cheese its expensive too. You wont make a podium with this unit but it is a lot of fun. The poster asked for competitive units the ram at least deserves consideration. FW is allowed in many places. Its almost 300 points thats the cost of 2 Baals but if used correctly you get two rounds of shooting a turn one is the magna melta the other is the ram and you can hide a full 10 man jump pack squad inside it.

I got tired of my jump packers getting shot to bits by light armour AKA Dark eldar venoms and ravagers sentinels eldar walkers tau stuff etc etc the ram and the ravens just destroy them and the twisted space pixies inside. Pay back felt good... reallly really good.

Necrons will still glance units like ravens and rams to death but you cant have everything. Against gauss heavy crons use your plentiful jump packers to assault them and tie them up.

Did I mention that demon screamer flamer spam lists dont like flyers and have no real answer to three ravens who can each put out 17 twin linked shots inside 12 inches every turn, as well as sending a bloodstrike off into something else.

[Sokhar]

 

I will touch on the Caestus Assault Ram too, Its awesome nothing is as satisfying as zooming onto the board tank shocking troops out of the way plowing into a light vehicle blowing it up then stopping on the other side to drop a large blast melta template on something else.

 

If you're doing this all on one turn, then you're cheating your opponent. Ramming means you fire snap shots. Snap shots means you don't fire blast weapons. So the Caestus can either use its melta cannon or ram, but it can't do both on the same turn. So in most situations I'd assume the ramming ability is probably sub-par compared to just firing a large blast melta.

 

Anyway, back to competitive choices....

 

For really competitive options we don't really have an overabundance. There's not a whole lot in our codex that ends up being dramatically under-costed for its performance (which typically ends up being a definition of "competitive"). I'd probably boil it down to 3 really strong choices that make our codex distinct.

1) Mephiston--Shouldn't need any explanation. If you're playing at least a 500 point game and using BA, take Mephiston. Auto-include.

2) Stormravens--Not quite the same auto-include as Mephiston, but they're awesome. Hopefully C:SM don't get our bloodstrike missiles for a total nerf, but its one of the best flyers in the game, overwhelming firepower.

3) Death Company--I don't consider these guys in the same tier as the previous two, but its really hard to complain about a 20-point model that is WS 5, has a 3+ with FNP, packs Relentless with a bolter, and has four strength 5 attacks on the charge. They don't help you score, which is the only thing really holding them back, but its kinda obscene what you get in the package.

 

Other units are certainly useful and good to have in competitive lists, but theyr'e either not as efficient or don't hold up as well in comparison to other codexes' options, etc. Sanguinary Priests still have some value, Predators are decent but took a bit of a nerf in 6th, Furioso and DC Dreads are both quite nice but run greater risks against grenade-toting opponents, etc.

[Drunken Angel]

If you're doing this all on one turn, then you're cheating your opponent. Ramming means you fire snap shots. Snap shots means you don't fire blast weapons. So the Caestus can either use its melta cannon or ram, but it can't do both on the same turn. So in most situations I'd assume the ramming ability is probably sub-par compared to just firing a large blast melta.

The above applies to tanks moving at cruising speed, the rule for the caestus specifically allows it to ram as a tank in zoom mode. Zoom mode allows tank shock to occur zoom also allows 4 weapons to be fired at full ballistic skill. The explanation of ram details cruising speed (tank) as the reason for allowing snap shots. Flyers in zoom mode can fire 4 weapons at full ballistic skill.

We could go around in circles on this one all day the same page 80 states flyers cannot be tank shocked or rammed nor can they conduct tank shocks or ram but now they do.

I suggest any one wanting to use a forgeworld model place the models rules before the tourney judges and get it cleared up.

Sokhar did not attend that tourney, I did. I placed the Rams rule sheet before the TO at the start and asked how the rule was to be interpreted.
How I played was approved for that tourney

Sokhar I agree with your comments on Mephiston Ravens and Death Company would you like to retract that cheat comment its somewhat harsh. I would expect a variety of outcomes on how this is ruled. I used the impartial one I was given by a TO.

If anyone wants to wade in on this interpretation I suggest you take it to the rules page and dont clog this thread up

[trukkster]

I have to agree that a Fragioso in a drop pod is a real game changer.  I run mine as anti-infantry.  So frag cannon and heavy flamer in a pod for 170.  Sweet alpha strike unit with the potential to get you first blood. 

 

In the last 1750 game I had, I alpha striked two dreadnoughts in drop pods and took out two 5 man DA squads in cover.  As the frag cannon is a template weapon, it ignores cover.  So for most things its wounding on 2+ and rending on 6+.  Oh and its 2 shots!  Then the flamer has a pop!

 

I run 1 in a 1500 and 2 in a 1750 list.  Both lists have Stormravens too!  If the enemy has an ADL i'll use the Fragioso to take it out.  That usually leaves my 'raven to pillage.

[Hamertime95]

So it seems Mephiston and the Stormraven are very popular as are the death company :) at 1750 points how would you run these guys and how is 2 ravens better than 1 at this points cost? :)

[Leksington]

Does the Stormraven still count now that BT and Vanilla Marines will be able to take them?  :P

[TheSauce]

Yes, as it will be our only chance to take out their Stormravens. And hopefully they wont get our sweet AP1 missile goodness.

[Drunken Angel]

Leksington, on 13 Feb 2013 - 13:01, said:

Does the Stormraven still count now that BT and Vanilla Marines will be able to take them?

The more Ravens the fewer demon lists, Ravens and codex spacemarine libby with null zone = end of flamer screamer spam. Bloodstrikes are unique to BA lets keep it that way we got shafted on a lot of other stuff but Ravens are too good not to get shared around plenty of sales in that idea

[Sokhar]

Drunken_Angel--I don't agree with that rules interpretation, but you're right that I phrased that too harshly. My apologies, brother. The ramming rule doesn't stipulate snap shots specifically because it says a tank moves at cruising speed, that's after the part I mentioned. It outright says "it, and any embarked troops, may only fire SNap SHots in that turn's shooting phase." I don't see how you argue with that. And in my opinion your TO ruled incorrectly. However, as you stated, that's how he ruled, so that's how you got to play it. But to me, that's like saying "my TO said Space Marines can hit on a 2+ so I did," until we have some other FAQ to address the issue. And I doubt that'll happen. But again, my apologies for the harshness of my earlier post. It was meant to just be a disagreement on a rules interpretation, not a personal attack.

 

On to Stormravens...

They'll still be good units even with Space Marines and Templars getting them (though I hope they don't get our missiles). Putting the Vendetta in another codex wouldn't make it bad, it just makes it more widely available. The raven is a great gunship that can also transport units. And I think our dreads are the best candidates for transport out of any codex. So that's one small advantage we retain.

 

For weapon systems, I always go Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta, and Hurricane Bolters. Very deadly against other flyers and enemy vehicles, and has enough dice to put a dent in infantry as well. There's nothing that thing can't kill, and probably kiil efficiently, outside of 2+ units. And weight of dice will still put a dent in them.

 

At any reasonable points level (above 1500), I'd go for two Ravens.  One is a threat, but there's always the chance that a lucky quadgun knocks it out. Two is more than twice as durable, and the amount of firepower they can put out is almost staggering. Auto-Las Predators used to be a staple in all competitive BA lists, and I feel like SR's have taken that spotlight instead. For a little more than you used to pay for triple Preds, you get a pair of Ravens that can hurt vehicles just as badly, flyers moreso, and infantry much more. In addition to being more durable, more maneuverable, and doubling as transports. Take 2 Ravens and Mephiston, then build the rest of the list to taste. ;)