IT: Thornbacks

[Messor]

Index Traitoris

The Thornbacks

Origins

Barren

"There is no deeper meaning, Iron Brother." Semesius interjected coldly as he examined the inner workings of his right hand. A slow smile spread on his face as he caught a glimpse of an ironical tear glistening on the inquiring marine's face, "Hm, the weak lean on meaning. Inancas showed us that. In time you will overcome it," he clenched his bionic fist, testing servos and gears, "or become just another weakness for us to remove."

Among the later Chapters created during the 25th founding of the Adeptus Astartes was a successor Chapter of the Red Talons known as the White Hawks, created to crusade the fringes of Segmentum Pacificus. Though the Chapter's centuries of service were honorable, the White Hawks did not endure a millennium. Their downfall, caused from within, was rooted in the Chapter's founding. The same reading of the Emperor's tarot that called for the new Chapter made an unusual specification: the founding Chapter Master was to be the Red Talons' youngest first company veteran. A handful within the training cadre, led by one Captain Iacomas Inancas, was vehemently opposed to the tarot's appointment of Chapter Master. The marine indicated by the tarot was known as Agreus Nomios. If records are to be believed, Nomios was the youngest inductee to the Red Talons' first company. The subject largely of awe and respect turned to one of disbelief, and suspicion when the training cadre was informed, but as soldiers, and brothers, the remaining marines fell in. As the Chapter grew through the decades, there was no outward sign of disquiet, but as the decades stretched into centuries, with each passing act by the Chapter Master, the malcontent grew in certain hearts. What Nomios and his faithful brothers called adaptation and welcome change, Inancas claimed to be the trampling of their gene-fathers' traditions beneath their boots. What Inancas called the preservation of their gene-legacy, Nomios regarded as undermining authority. Even so, Inancas swayed many marines, both veteran and neophyte, with a silver tongue. What had started as little more than collective mistrust of the Chapter Master grew into a vitriolic hate shared by an ever growing following.

The situation came to a head during an oratory by Nomios broadcast to the entire fleet as it made its way to a new battlezone as the fleet passed a temperate deathworld known as Direita II. Few remember what words were actually said. Some believe Nomios suggested that the traditions of their primogenitors contradicted the true wishes of the Primarch. Others justify what happened next by claiming that Nomios decried the Talons and the Iron Hands as fools with heretical beliefs. Whatever the words, the result was almost immediate, and some still say it was the plan all along. Ships loyal to Captain Inancas broke formation, and cut off communication with the rest of the fleet. Those marines loyal to Nomios that found themselves on traitor vessels were taken by surprise and quickly subdued, while on the other ships, marines under Inancas were inciting chaos with sabotage and ambushes, ensuring that their deaths would cost the loyalists dearly. Civil war erupted. Many of those that remained at the Chapter Master's side were the skilled pilots for which the White Hawks were reputed, while those that followed Inancas were more from the assault elements, favoring bloody boarding actions and personal combat. Within minutes, fleet guns had been turned on former brothers. The element of surprise gave Captain Inancas' smaller fleet time to concentrate fire on the Monastery Barge, the Black Castle, crippling its weapons and engines and setting it adrift.

The battle raged for little more than a day and night above the planet. The Black Castle was soon caught in the planet's gravity, and pulled from the sky even as repairs to its engines were being completed. In the rest of the fleet, Nomios' pilots had not been able to hold back Inancas' assaults, and several loyalist ships were captured with the help of those traitors still on board, while a number of others were scuttled by the loyalists to keep them out of enemy hands. Their staggering losses notwithstanding, a strike team of Nomios' most trusted brothers, along with the Chapter Master himself, infiltrated Inancas' ship, the Void Rogue and attacked him on its bridge. Captain Inancas challenged Nomios to a duel, discarding all his weapons except a combat knife. Nomios accepted, but as the duel went on, it began to turn in the traitor Captain's favor. Raging as his own blade was knocked away, Nomios landed a punch on the soft armor beneath Inancas' raised arm and triggered hidden digital weapons, a burst lazer that all but removed Inancas' right arm. The Captain had enough time to claim Nomios an unworthy coward before his throat was slit by his own knife. Nomios and his marines abandoned the ship after locking into a crash course with the planet. Their attack, however, did not go unnoticed. Inancas had dispatched his own team before being cornered, and the bomb on Nomios' Thunderhawk detonated spectacularly as it made its escape from the Void Rogue. At that point, the scales tipped in favor of the traitors. Though they died fighting to a man, every loyalist ship was blasted into fiery rain over the plains of the planet below. The victory of the traitors, though complete, had come at a bitter cost, and marooned them with much of the Chapter's wargear and remaining gene-seed trapped on the planet's surface.

At first, Direita II was hostile, as it had evolved to be, dangerous even to Space Marines. In time, though, the remaining traitors came to master it and call it home. Now under the command of Inancas' right hand, a former Captain known as Semesius the Disinherited, traitor remnants of the White Hawks have begun to grow once more. Casting aside their old identity, they now call themselves the Thornbacks, a name adopted from the planet's deadliest predators.

Homeworld

"This world, untainted, it is the perfect challenge of our might.
It has bred strength. It will do the same for us."

~Sergeant of Recruits, Omester

Direita II is a world roughly similar to ancient Terra, with geographic diversity and a multitude of accompanying climes. The White Hawks' War not only showered vast areas with debris, but several of the Chapter's ships are still buried in its surface. The Thornbacks have concentrated themselves around the remains of the Black Castle and the Void Rogue which both fell in a marshy region between a large river and the planet's single great ocean. The Thornbacks have since discovered small pockets of native humans, tribals that manage to survive on the knife's edge of life on Direita II.

The planet earned its classification as a deathworld for two primary reasons. A toxic mineral laced throughout the planet's crust has rendered it undesirable for colonization. The mineral, known to natives as 'skull rock' for its coloration and recognizable deep pock markings, often releases lethal hallucinogenic dust residue into the air, making it unbreathable by any but the Space Marines until it is subdued by the rains. Due in part to this, the natives usually settle in the forests or swamps in elevated or treetop communities, where the dust is both less likely to penetrate, and too heavy to rise. The only real guarantee of safety is to avoid the surface deposits, and these areas have been avoided by the tribes for generations. The raised dwellings are also necessary to escape from the planet's dominant life, the Aoulef, a native term combining the words for pebble and man. Named for their scaly, ridged backs, the pebble men are four legged reptiles of immense size and brutal strength. With jaws up to half as long as their considerable bodies, and keen senses, Semesius' scouts have encountered these predators hunting in every environment on the planet except the barren mountains. They hunt in large family groups led by a single elder. These particularly ancient beasts are believed by the tribes to be immortal, and their distinctly more weathered hides give them their name: thorned men. These are the beasts that now serve as the traitors' name and symbol.

Apparently immune to the toxic dust, and with bottomless appetites, these predators have been attributed to the disappearance of more than one careless recruit. Worse still, as the most fertile part of the planet, the swamps are host to the yearly mating migration of the pebble men. As a result, both the tribes and the traitors must also endure the yearly influx of predators. This is the greatest trial of the natives, for when the hunger of the reptiles reaches its zenith, as many as fifty of the beasts may converge on potential prey. This has taught the natives a degree of patience to rival that of the creatures themselves, as a wrong movement can endanger an entire settlement.

Recruitment

Induction

The recruit roared in pain and defiance at the stump of his right hand, twisting away from the chained form of the snapping predator as the echoes his cry filled the chamber. The Apothecary quickly lifted the blood spattered neophyte, kicking away the still-seeking maw with a ceramite boot as he led away his charge.

In the hundred years since the war with the White Hawks, the Thornbacks have cultivated a healthy gene-seed supply, largely as a result of paranoid self preservation. A portion of the surviving gene-seed was immediately given over to implantation, both to replenish the supply and to reinforce the remaining traitors. Those native tribals deemed pure enough made excellent recruits. Their knowledge of the planet's dangers was invaluable, and evolutionary mutations that had strengthened them against the lethal mineral dust resulted in marines with powerful lungs who have even influenced the Thornbacks' strategies and tactics. Unfortunately, the hazardous environment has also caused countless minor mutations among many of the natives, and for the most part the Thornbacks find them unfit for dedicated recruiting. Their preferred source is for recruits is Trinovantum, previously the hiveworld from which the White Hawks recruited. With a simple lie, the citizens of Trinovantum have never questioned the abrupt change in livery of their supposed custodians.

The recruitment process includes many common Astartes tests of skill and strength, but when it comes times for recruits to receive the traditional bionic right hand replacement, the brutal nature of Semesius and his men becomes much more apparent. A number of pebblebacks, as the marines call them, are captured and blinded. Even blind pebblebacks can survive in the wild, and they hunt by simply opening their mouths while partially or fully hidden underwater, and waiting. Their mouths and tongues are highly sensitive, and at the slightest touch from a foreign object, be it a fish or a log, the powerful jaws snap shut, easily cleaving through its prey. The specimens kept by the Thornbacks are used in a ritual 'amputation' in which recruits are made to sit beside the chained beasts, and hold their hand between its open jaws. At the first drop of sweat that falls, the deed is done.

Combat Doctrine

Lurkers Vile

The fishing village's sturdy docks had been largely destroyed in battle, the remaining one tightly held by the planet's PDF. It was their one reliable method of getting troops across the lake after the attack on the airfield. The tiny fishing port had to be held. In the still dimness of dawn, a single guardsman stood watch at the pier's end, while his compatriots huddled around a fire a hundred meters away on land.

Slowly, silently, a bald head studded with metal rose from the water just outside the guardsman's field of vision, followed by broad shoulders. The Scout's hands rose just as slowly stopping about a foot above the surface. A twitch of a finger on his mechanical right sent the signal. The shot came from across the lake, taking the guardsman in the chest without a sound. He careened backwards into the Scout's waiting hands and disappeared beneath the surface. Below the water, dozens of yellow helmet optics blinked into life, moving towards the surface.

Still comparatively small and with limited supplies, the Thornbacks do not involve themselves in major engagements with their enemies, but like the pebblebacks, will lie in wait and ambush vulnerable targets. Direita II neighbors one subsector with an Imperial colony, which has more than once been raided, and within a radius of only a few sectors are another colony, and an Astartes recruiting world. While all are appealing targets, the latter is the preferred victim of Thornback raids. The small size of their fleet enables a certain degree of stealth, which they use to surgically pick apart defenses and extract materiel and prisoners from their victims. This is of utmost importance to the renegades. While the obscurity of their homeworld has afforded them a good deal of security, they are all too conscious that drawing the full attention of the Imperium would be their undoing. With a combination of small numbers, and attacking isolated targets, they have been able to prosecute their grudge against the Imperium without bringing ruin on themselves. Though the Imperium has thorough documentation of the piracy plaguing the region, some of it even suggesting that rogue astartes are responsible, they still haven’t been able to pinpoint a source.

More often than not, the Thornbacks will take only the few resources valuable to them, as they consider the true prize the opportunity to attack recruitment pools for loyalist forces. Under Semesius' direction more than one settlement has been razed to the ground leaving many a grieving parent, and not a single child, the precious youth whisked away to Direita II and an uncertain fate.

Their preferred strategy for attacking ground targets is to make use camouflaging elements, particularly grasslands and local bodies of water. To maintain the element of surprise, landings may be made miles from targets so as to approach submerged. Scouts, especially those native to Direita II, are highly skilled at killing unseen from the water, and softening or marking targets for a Thornback assault. To further conceal their activity and movements, the renegades will often adopt the tactics and livery of loyal Astartes chapters, including the extinct White Hawks; some Thornback revel particularly in this deception, sowing dishonor and doubt among loyalists and their wards.

Planetary attacks are relatively few and far between, considering the greater risk entailed, and far more often the Thornbacks simply wait for trade fleets plying the same lanes past Direita II that they once followed, and destroy or capture these. The Thornbacks maintain a marked preference for boarding actions, as the War cost them most of their armored assets, and still cripples their efforts to replenish standard supplies and even make simple power armor repairs. One venerable manufactorum ship, scuttled during the final battle of the Hawks, remains partially operational on the planet's surface. Though they haven't had any luck restoring additional systems, the Thornback carefully maintains those that do work, providing them with a steady supply of arms and ammunition.

One of their most recent battle was also one of their greatest. It began as a carefully planned raid on a freshly completed orbital dock above the mining planet Magnabulum. Hoping to secure a more powerful and reliable setting to repair their ships and stage their attacks, the Thornbacks planned to seize the station before its full defenses and fleet escorts could arrive. The renegades employed every trick and tactic they had, disguising themselves as a combined force of White Hawks and Tauridae Astra, the chapter whose world the renegades sometimes raid for recruits. With the Tauridae impersonators playing the part of assigned escorts, they gained access to the station, and then subtly sabotaged control of docking bay defenses, opening the way for the larger “White Hawks” force to move in and gain a foothold. Staging a battle between the two teams, the Tauridae Thornbacks fell back deeper into the station with its other defenders, only to turn on them once inside, gaining near complete control of the station.

Things were going well, until the actual defense fleet of the Imperial Navy arrived, earlier than scheduled, and with elements of the real Tauridae alongside them. Briefly the two forces clashed, but the loyalist force overwhelmingly outnumbered the renegades. Though they could hold the dogs of the Imperium at bay with the station’s defenses, they would never get away with the station, and the longer they remained, the more likely that their true identities could be exposed.

Redirecting their efforts to preventing the loyalists from flanking them, a small detachment of Thornbacks penetrated deep into the station and began overloading the reactor. With a fighting retreat, the Thornbacks abandoned the orbital dock, their final escape covered by the detonation of the reactor. The field of debris remains down to the present, while the Tauridae have endured close observation from the Inquisition ever since. Though capturing the station was a failure, the results proved an unexpected boon when, scant years later, the Cicatrix Maledictum tore across the galaxy, cutting off the local loyalist forces from reliable naval repair and resupply, and leaving them exposed to more daring raids by the Thornbacks.

Organization

The Thornbacks very loosely maintain a loyalist Chapter organization for ground combat, with a little more than three and a half companies worth of marines to command, though the number dwindles as the years go on. Usually leadership on the battlefield is simply a continuation of leadership from a respective unit's fleet assignment. Ship 'crews' and contingents are far more strongly defined, and there is great pride among marines for their respective vessels, often with attached rivalries. Many of these associations were, and remain with, ships of the original Chapter fleet, most of which were destroyed. The most feared and respected Thornbacks were originally assigned to the Void Rogue, and though the ship will never leave the planet, those marines that truly distinguish themselves are still ceremonially inducted into its contingent. These marines now often take the lead on the Thornbacks' single working Strike Cruiser, the Cloud Gallows.

Beliefs

"Concern yourselves with only one thing, brothers. We must not only take and give nothing in return.
We must take that which is of dearest cost to replace. Honor. Strength. Power."

~Semesius the Disinherited

Semesius maintains a warped value for the purity that so concerns marines of Manus' line, believing that the truest purity is not only absent of weakness, but that which enables power. The Imperium and Adeptus Astartes appear unable to accept this 'natural truth', even the majority of the mighty Space Marines submitting to restrictive laws and imposed limits. While it is unclear if this was ever Inancas' real intent, it is preached as such. Much of the Thornbacks' beliefs revolve around the aggrandizement of Captain Inancas, and the rejection of the White Hawks, to whom is attached all the blame for the Thornbacks' situation. The Iron Brethren, similar in function to the Iron Fathers of their parent legion, teach that the Hawks were the epitome of weakness. A Chapter given power, but unable to keep it. These views are projected on the Imperium as a whole, an empire feigning unity, and losing strength because of it, a sinking ship which the Thornbacks have abandoned. Though Semisius would restrict their beliefs to simple philosophies, recruits from Direita II have such deeply embedded tribal superstitions that they almost can't function without them. As a result, most recruits, who now make use of and perpetuate the damaged gene-seed of the White Hawks, associate the gene flaw with the spirit of the dead Chapter.

Gene-seed

Last Drop in the Well

The Iron Brother did not move, and Semesius' smile became a snarl of disgust.

"If they will not be satisfied, tell them what they want to hear," It was clear he hadn't had anything particular in mind, but as he finished a sudden pensive look fell over him, and after a moment's silence he added, "Say they are the tears of the White Hawks, despairing at their failings. Their vessels are ours now, their legacy dead and ours begun. All they can do is mourn for the children of the Imperium that fall by our hand."

Though the White Hawks had no flaws in their genetic material, severe damage to the gene-seed stores was sustained when the Black Castle crash landed. Much of the gene-seed was rendered useless, the loss of which was intensified by the loss of over half the Chapter. What remained has proven surprisingly resilient, though an Occulobe flaw has perpetuated to the Thornbacks as a whole, causing a yellow discoloration to the eye as well as a facial nerve degeneration that causes marines to shed tears, most frequently during combat where it is attributed to heightened adrenaline levels and the usual contorting of the face that tends to accompany battle. Some Thornbacks train themselves to be completely impassive in combat to reduce the effect. Others embrace it, intrigued by the way it can disturb and confuse outsiders who see it.

Battle-cry

"Our blades hunger! Give us the taste!" Edited August 1, 2019 by Messor

[Messor]

So those who already saw the badge and guessed traitor, guessed right XD. The Dry Souls, ready for comment. I'll definitely add on a recruitment sections pretty soon, I like those, and of course hammer out the beliefs. Not 100% sold on the color scheme they have right now, but its loyal to the theme, so its a satisfying start. Have at it!

[Octavulg]

...All of our names were way better than yours.

 

Plus, Dry Souls sounds like a foot condition.

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A splinter within the Chapter, led by one Captain Inancas, was vehemently opposed to the tarot's appointment of Chapter Master, a young marine known as Agreus Nomios.

Er...why would the Emperor's Tarot be used to appoint the Chapter Master?

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If records were to be believed, Nomios was the youngest inductee to the Red Talons' first company.

Are, not were. Unless they didn't know at the time, which would be weird.

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The subject largely of awe and respect turned to one disbelief, rancor and mistrust when it was revealed that the Tarot identified Nomios to lead the training cadre, but as soldiers, and brothers, the remaining marines fell in. Though there was silence as the Chapter grew, with each passing act from the Chapter Master, the malcontent grew as well. Inancas swayed many marines, both veteran and neophyte, with a skilled silver tongue. What Nomios and his faithful brothers called adaptation and welcome change, Inancas claimed to be the trampling of their gene-fathers' traditions beneath their boots. What had started as little more than collective disgust for the Chapter Master soon became vitriolic hate shared by an ever growing following.

...Why would he be chosen? Surely the senior officer would be chosen to lead the cadre. And if he's the senior officer, logically the junior one isn't going to expect to lead.

 

Also, these are Space Marines. How come nobody hit anybody?

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The situation came to a head during an oratory by Nomios broadcast to the entire fleet as it made its way to a new battlezone, passing a temperate deathworld known as Direita II. Few remember what words were actually said. Some believe Nomios suggested that the traditions of their primogenitors contraticted the true wishes of the Primarch. Other justify what happened next by claiming that Nomios decried the Talons and the Iron Hands as heretics and fools. Whatever the words, the result was almost immediate, and some still say it was the plan all along. Ships loyal to Captain Inancas broke formation, and cut off communication with the rest of the fleet. Those marines loyal to Nomios that found themselves on traitor vessels were taken by surprise and quickly subdued, while on the other ships, marines under Inancas were inciting chaos with sabotage and ambushes, ensuring that their deaths would cost the loyalists dearly. Civil war had erupted. Many of those that remained at the Chapter Master's side were the skilled pilots for which the White Hawks were reputed, while those that followed Inancas were more from the assault elements, favoring boarding actions. Within minutes, fleet guns had been turned on former brothers. The element of surprise gave Captain Inancas' smaller fleet time to concentrate fire on the Monastery Barge, the Black Castle, crippling its weapons and engines and setting it adrift.

This is implausible at best. A training cadre surely sees scrutiny for, among other things, loyalty to the new Chapter Master.

 

Plus, most of the new marines are going to be, well, new. The traditions of their forefathers won't mean THAT much to them. They wouldn't be in a position to be influenced like this - the training cadre's going to be a small group of marines. Unless the training cadre was won over very quickly (in which case you'd expect the Chapter Master to NOTICE), all the new chapter would know would be the new ways.

 

Plus, why would a new Chapter Master introduce new ways, anyway?

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At first, Direita II was hostile, as it had evolved to be, dangerous even to space marines. In time, though, the remaining traitors came to master it, and call it home. Under the command of Inancas' right hand, now known as Semeesius the Disinherited, traitor remnants of the White Hawks have begun to grow once more. Casting aside their old identity, they have taken a name from the insults bandied by the loyalists during the war, calling themselves the Dry Souls.

A ) That's a lousy insult.

B ) WAR? It lasted a DAY.

C ) Semeesius is a stupid name.

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but several of the Chapter's ships are still buried in it's surface.

Its. It's is a contraction of it is.

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tribals that manage live on the knifes edge of life on Direita II.

knife's.

 

A course on proper use of apostrophes is (as I recall) contained in one of the appendices to the Octaguide.

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These attacks are relatively few and far between, considering the great risk entailed, and far more often the Dry Souls simply wait for trade fleets plying the same lanes past Direita II that they once followed, and destroy or capture these. The Dry Souls maintain a marked preference for boarding actions, as the Civil War cost them most of their armored assets, and still cripples their efforts to replenish standard supplies and even make simple power armor repairs.

Why not act as a loyalist Space Marine chapter? It's not like they're Chaotic, and they won. They get to write the history books.

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The Dry Souls very loosely maintain a loyalist Chapter organization for ground combat, with a little more than three companies having survived the War. Usually leadership on the battlefield is simply a continuation of leadership from a respective units fleet assignment. Ship 'crews' and contingents are far more strongly defined, and there is great pride among marines for their respective vessels, often with attached rivalries.

Why do they even have hundreds of Marines? How can they maintain even that much with the highly limited means available to them?

 

This is like the Raptors, but (even) less plausible.

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-Aware that the coup has earned a one way ticket to excommunicate-ville but "it was worth it"

Why? Civil war would, logically, be a private matter between the Astartes. Hell, Marine chapters go to war with each other without getting excommunicated.

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-Fault the strained and unsustainable 'law' of the Imperium

-Blame Terra for the 'foolish' choice in Chapter Master

-Blame Terra and Adeptus Astartes for not plying advantage and power of Chapters for personal gain

Why? None of this is effectively established. Furthermore, you're making some assumptions about the selection of training cadres that seem highly unwarranted. Surely the selection of Chapter Master would be up to the chapter providing the cadre - they're the only ones who know enough about their membership. Remember, chapters can be very standoffish.

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"Wet our cheeks with blood!"

A ) This is bad as a battle-cry. It's too weird to be intimidating, and too morbid to be inspiring. It's also rather long.

B ) This is bad as a battle-cry because it tells us nothing about the chapter. A good battle-cry tells you something about the Marines. This really doesn't.

 

* * *

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan. The idea fails to work on both a larger level and in the details. The only bit I really like is the banner.

 

What are you looking for out of this idea?

[Beachymike123]

ouch octavulg. i can tell you weren't keen on this one. tbh, i thought it was alright. not messor's best, and i agree with you on the battle cry, but it did provide some food for thought (i particularly liked the break away, would be interesting to contain more action on that). i would also say that as they are grandsons to ferrus mannus they would be more technologically adept, so i'd say maybe include some more of this in their history (salvaging from ships, searching for tech if you want to go that way etc), but that just might be my interpretation (genetic descendants, inherent abilities etc). could explain how they are surviving though. all in all, i'd say it needs a bit of fleshing out, but pretty good so far. 

[Octavulg]

ouch octavulg. i can tell you weren't keen on this one.

I admit. The first comment was a lot more light and joking when I started.

 

Also, for the one thing I didn't explain: Semeesius is a stupid name because its pronuniciation sounds weak and squealy. <nasal>Semeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezius</nasal>. Or <nasal>Semeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesius</nasal>. Either way, really.

[Blackrat]

Er...why would the Emperor's Tarot be used to appoint the Chapter Master?

Although I agree mostly with other points you make, I have to ask, why not use the Tarot to appoint Chapter Master? That is an idea I haven't seen used before, but I can see the logic in it. It is possibly used to make even more important decisions so why not use it to divine the best candidate to serve as Chapter Master. If the psyker is strong enough, it would be assumed that his divinations and interpretations are "always correct", so why not ask him for help if it is available...

[Banelord]

 

 

Er...why would the Emperor's Tarot be used to appoint the Chapter Master?

Although I agree mostly with other points you make, I have to ask, why not use the Tarot to appoint Chapter Master? That is an idea I haven't seen used before, but I can see the logic in it. It is possibly used to make even more important decisions so why not use it to divine the best candidate to serve as Chapter Master. If the psyker is strong enough, it would be assumed that his divinations and interpretations are "always correct", so why not ask him for help if it is available...

 

 

Personally, I would have had a chapter master killed in battle; the two captains are either “nominated” or put their name forward, depending on how your chapter selects its new leader. Unable to decide, both being equal, the tarot is consulted. The loser becomes jealous believing he’s been cheated, allowing the seeds of chaos to be planted , and makes planes to take control of the chapter for him-self. Boom! Civil wars erupt.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Banelord

[Octavulg]

Blackrat

Although I agree mostly with other points you make, I have to ask, why not use the Tarot to appoint Chapter Master? That is an idea I haven't seen used before, but I can see the logic in it. It is possibly used to make even more important decisions so why not use it to divine the best candidate to serve as Chapter Master. If the psyker is strong enough, it would be assumed that his divinations and interpretations are "always correct", so why not ask him for help if it is available...

Well, for one, because this can happen.

 

It depends on who's making the selection. If it's the High Lords, I don't see how they'd know enough about the chapter to make the determination. If it's the chapter, that seems very mystic, but it could work (using it to choose from the shortlist, sort of thing).

 

* * *

 

Banelord

Personally, I would have had a chapter master killed in battle; the two captains are either “nominated” or put their name forward, depending on how your chapter selects its new leader. Unable to decide, both being equal, the tarot is consulted. The loser becomes jealous believing he’s been cheated, allowing the seeds of chaos to be planted devil.gif, and makes planes to take control of the chapter for him-self. Boom! Civil wars erupt.

Works better, I think. Though, honestly, these scenarios always rely heavily on the Space Marines being willing to become bitterly factional at the drop of a hat. This is more plausible in an Iron Hands successor (if they still do Clan Companies or have a council), but in a normal chapter (with its very ordered command structure), it seems stranger. Especially if the chapter's not encountering any particular difficulty.

[Banelord]

Blackrat

Although I agree mostly with other points you make, I have to ask, why not use the Tarot to appoint Chapter Master? That is an idea I haven't seen used before, but I can see the logic in it. It is possibly used to make even more important decisions so why not use it to divine the best candidate to serve as Chapter Master. If the psyker is strong enough, it would be assumed that his divinations and interpretations are "always correct", so why not ask him for help if it is available...

Well, for one, because this can happen.

 

It depends on who's making the selection. If it's the High Lords, I don't see how they'd know enough about the chapter to make the determination. If it's the chapter, that seems very mystic, but it could work (using it to choose from the shortlist, sort of thing).

 

* * *

 

Banelord

>

Personally, I would have had a chapter master killed in battle; the two captains are either “nominated” or put their name forward, depending on how your chapter selects its new leader. Unable to decide, both being equal, the tarot is consulted. The loser becomes jealous believing he’s been cheated, allowing the seeds of chaos to be planted devil.gif, and makes planes to take control of the chapter for him-self. Boom! Civil wars erupt.

Works better, I think. Though, honestly, these scenarios always rely heavily on the Space Marines being willing to become bitterly factional at the drop of a hat. This is more plausible in an Iron Hands successor (if they still do Clan Companies or have a council), but in a normal chapter (with its very ordered command structure), it seems stranger. Especially if the chapter's not encountering any particular difficulty.

 

 

True, I know the Dark Angles Grand Master chooses his successor from members of the Inner Circle and they take over as soon as he dies. So maybe it’s possible for a more “religious” chapter to use the tarot to choose, from a select group of high ranking marines of course, and still be a codex chapter. A rather arrogant marine believes it’s his destiny but a rival is chosen.  Over time he becomes jealous, allowing chaos to take hold, or the new chapter master is useless and he wants him out for the sake of the chapter?

In general chapters don’t become bitterly factional at the drop of a hat but if the influence of chaos becomes strong enough it could happen, loyalist wanting to purge the chaos taint or the other way around.

[Messor]

Thanks for the feedback thus far folks, you've given me a lot to think about. Hopefully I can answer some questions, though changes will certainly need to be made.

 

...All of our names were way better than yours.

I'll be the [technically-second-but-you-get-my-drift] to admit, that yeah, pretty much all those names were more epic, which in some ways is good to know. Honestly, if I had still been looking for a name, I'd probably have used Aquilanus' Jaws of Dylia, or gone with SP's Sons of Baru. I'd already named them though, the I? thread was really just to hopefully inspire ideas.

 

 

Er...why would the Emperor's Tarot be used to appoint the Chapter Master?

Blackrat was fairly close to my thought process, though it was less a matter of 'Why not use the tarot,' than it was that the Tarot called for a chapter, and in so doing happened to identify its leader. After all, you're exactly right, why would a Junior officer expect to lead? If the Tarot had specified the youngest veteran of another Chapter, it'd be likely that he still wasn't that much younger/more junior than his brothers, but in this particular case there happens to be a veteran of record youth. I may try to reconnect a little more with IH clan roots, where a junior officer might have a better chance of being taken seriously, but I think the mysticism of the Tarot does something interesting for it.

 

 

This is implausible at best. A training cadre surely sees scrutiny for, among other things, loyalty to the new Chapter Master.

Plus, most of the new marines are going to be, well, new. The traditions of their forefathers won't mean THAT much to them. They wouldn't be in a position to be influenced like this - the training cadre's going to be a small group of marines. Unless the training cadre was won over very quickly (in which case you'd expect the Chapter Master to NOTICE), all the new chapter would know would be the new ways.

Plus, why would a new Chapter Master introduce new ways, anyway?

I don't see why or how such scrutiny would take place. The training cadre can be drawn from anywhere in the Chapter, in fact if the Deathwatch Rites of Battle is accurate at all, even a sergeant can be made a Chapter Master. The only way I could see of ensuring an entire cadre's loyalty to the new CM would be only choosing brothers he knew. I think its unlikely that he'll really know many brothers outside his own company, or be assured of their loyalty. Besides that, as a brotherhood, I imagine its expected that even despite differences, they're loyal to one another and their cause.

 

I see what you mean about the influence on new marines, and I think that issue stems from a poorly established timeline. I mentioned their service being short, but that's mostly because I wanted to get past the White Hawks and on to the traitors. That bit may not serve the history so well. I want them to be at full strength during the uprising, for sure. I see the training cadre as potential dominoes. Swaying them will bring the troops under their command, but I don't think they're required for the coup to take place. All it really takes is one belligerent with a strong belief in/attachment to the old ways, and a couple of mistakes for him to use as 'proof'. 

 

Tying in from that, I'm sure that many of the quirks and traditions that make a Chapter unique are defined or at least sanctioned by its new leaders. If he brought nothing new to the table, I could just call them Red Talons, right?

 

 

A ) That's a lousy insult.
B ) WAR? It lasted a DAY.

A. I've never really thought of Space Marines as an imaginative lot when it came to insulting things. 'Traitor scum' 'xenos scum' heretic scum'. 'Soulless traitor' seems par for the course. Actually, I've personally always thought that was because Space Marines (except maybe the rowdy ones like Space Wolves) are kind of above tossing around insults. Could just be me, though.

 

B.The shortest war in history lasted 40-some-odd minutes. Battle just doesn't seem to do it for something that decides a Chapter's fate.

 

 

 

Why not act as a loyalist Space Marine chapter? It's not like they're Chaotic, and they won. They get to write the history books.

You think it could be that easy? I imagine the loyalist White Hawks trying to relay what's happening to any nearby Imperial presence, even if just a planetary governor. Perhaps not to ask for help, maybe they're too proud for that, but to make sure its known who the traitors are. The simplest reason, though, is that I wanted some clear cut traitors  .

 

 

 

Why do they even have hundreds of Marines? How can they maintain even that much with the highly limited means available to them?

This is like the Raptors, but (even) less plausible.

This, again, may be scratched up to a poorly established time line(I'm sure I completely missed something in the updated one you made). After they fighting, there were still plenty of them left. As leinmann mentioned, I think between their tech-adept heritage, and what they can salvage, they can hold out. Aren't fleet based Chapter's equipped with manufactorum vessels? Even with limited functionality, if they can make ammo, or weapons, or even replace bits and pieces of armor, I'd say they're in good shape. I don't believe that just because a SM force is not loyalist or chaos that they should be limited to only a handful of marines.

 

 

 

Why? Civil war would, logically, be a private matter between the Astartes. Hell, Marine chapters go to war with each other without getting excommunicated.

That sounds like a great example of counter-productive Imperial law. If White Hawk claims of treason made it to the right people(Like inquisitor types), how hard can it be for a force to be labeled excommunicate in such a broken system? I'm no fluff historian, so there may be abundant evidence for the other side, but the last time I'm familiar with that Chapters went to war with each other was Badab, which definitely had its fair share of excommunications.

 

 

Why? None of this is effectively established. Furthermore, you're making some assumptions about the selection of training cadres that seem highly unwarranted. Surely the selection of Chapter Master would be up to the chapter providing the cadre - they're the only ones who know enough about their membership. Remember, chapters can be very standoffish

No, its certainly not, although I think most of it can be established in the beliefs section, without adding to the already large origins. As to the selection of CM and training cadre, again, I don't have much to go off of, though certainly it would fall to the parent Chapter to choose the cadre, not the Tarot or the High Lords. While you've a good point about the standoffishness, that's part of the reason I usually use second or third generation successors like the Red Talons, because,  well, who's to say?

 

 

A ) This is bad as a battle-cry. It's too weird to be intimidating, and too morbid to be inspiring. It's also rather long.
B ) This is bad as a battle-cry because it tells us nothing about the chapter. A good battle-cry tells you something about the Marines. This really doesn't.

A. Really, even for traitors? Though no longer than 'For the Emperor', or 'Space Marines, Attack!'

B. In case you still had a shred of respect for these marines, I'll tell you their origin story. They started as the crocodile tears gene-seed flaw, which of course led to a general croc influence (cold-blooded attitude, 'dry' like crocs in the sun, and the creepy gene defect). In search of croc-y inspiration, I was reminded Peter Pan, and presto, Dry Souls. That's where you get the White Hawks, the Iron Hands, the CM and the Captain, the War, everything on Direita II, and go easy on poor Semeesius, he's trying to make the most of his unfortunate name. I'm afraid I'm a sucker for 'crossovers'. The battle-cry is a left over of that first idea, and while I like it, I'm sure it could be improved. I'll think on it, and am open to suggestions.

 

Hopefully the above answers your last question as well, though, full disclosure, I'm nuts about pirates and DAT has already dominated the Kraken/PotC scene, so that's also contributory.

 

 

leinmann, on 10 Feb 2013 - 17:35, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

 

ouch octavulg. i can tell you weren't keen on this one. tbh, i thought it was alright. not messor's best, and i agree with you on the battle cry, but it did provide some food for thought (i particularly liked the break away, would be interesting to contain more action on that). i would also say that as they are grandsons to ferrus mannus they would be more technologically adept, so i'd say maybe include some more of this in their history (salvaging from ships, searching for tech if you want to go that way etc), but that just might be my interpretation (genetic descendants, inherent abilities etc). could explain how they are surviving though. all in all, i'd say it needs a bit of fleshing out, but pretty good so far. 

I'll eventually try to get more into the uprising, it was a fun part. I'm also definitely hoping that their tech-savvy can help sustain them at a decent strength, if not their current strength.

 

Banelord, your idea is very workable. My main concern is that even for Iron Hands, I feel like they'd have a hard time taking the young CM candidate seriously, rather than the Chapter simply having to acknowledge it as the will of the Emperor and deal with it (until their patience runs out). Octavulg is right, there is a lot of dependence on these marines becoming very factional, but it doesn't seem like such a stretch for soldiers bred from the age of 12 to have this reaction if they think the cause they're indoctrinated to believe is at stake.

[EzekyleVIII]

Just wanted to chuck a few things in. The cold war. Still called a war nothing happened. Im all good for the tarot, as I am a fan of the silver skulls, and their mystical ways. I dont think semeesius is hookum at all :p (insert a rolling grass ball here)

[Olis]

Just wanted to chuck a few things in. The cold war. Still called a war nothing happened. 

 

Actually, quite a lot happened: Political posturing (and internal factionalisation, to a small degree), an arms race (nuclear and conventional), proxy wars and the odd crisis or two. Just because the two belligerents didn't come to blows, that doesn't mean nothing happened. :)

[Octavulg]

I'll be the [technically-second-but-you-get-my-drift] to admit, that yeah, pretty much all those names were more epic, which in some ways is good to know. Honestly, if I had still been looking for a name, I'd probably have used Aquilanus' Jaws of Dylia, or gone with SP's Sons of Baru. I'd already named them though, the I? thread was really just to hopefully inspire ideas.

I don't think it's too late to go grab one.

 

Seriously. They sound like their arch-enemies should be the Foot Cream Legion.

Blackrat was fairly close to my thought process, though it was less a matter of 'Why not use the tarot,' than it was that the Tarot called for a chapter, and in so doing happened to identify its leader. After all, you're exactly right, why would a Junior officer expect to lead? If the Tarot had specified the youngest veteran of another Chapter, it'd be likely that he still wasn't that much younger/more junior than his brothers, but in this particular case there happens to be a veteran of record youth. I may try to reconnect a little more with IH clan roots, where a junior officer might have a better chance of being taken seriously, but I think the mysticism of the Tarot does something interesting for it.

The Iron Hands always add a semi-interesting wrinkle to new foundings - specifically, do they draw from different Clan Companies or from one? The only example we really have is the Sons of Medusa, who are non-conventional anyway.

 

Also, do the Ad Mech even believe in the Emperor's Tarot?

I don't see why or how such scrutiny would take place. The training cadre can be drawn from anywhere in the Chapter, in fact if the Deathwatch Rites of Battle is accurate at all, even a sergeant can be made a Chapter Master. The only way I could see of ensuring an entire cadre's loyalty to the new CM would be only choosing brothers he knew. I think its unlikely that he'll really know many brothers outside his own company, or be assured of their loyalty. Besides that, as a brotherhood, I imagine its expected that even despite differences, they're loyal to one another and their cause.

Rites of Battle thinks there are more BA successors than Imperial Fists. It also thinks there are as many DA as BA. Oh, and they think the Salamanders have the least pure geneseed of all - worse geneseed than the Raven Guard, who apparently have geneseed of the same purity as the IH and WS. I take it with a large grain of salt.

 

I just don't think Marines who are greedy and ambitious are likely to be selected for a training cadre. There's Chaplains, there's Librarians, etc. There's controls in place. They're not perfect, but if you're choosing ten or twenty Marines to go to a new Chapter, I think you're pretty damn careful about it. For example, you DON'T send two Captains, one of whom is more senior to the other but is going to serve as the other's junior.

I see what you mean about the influence on new marines, and I think that issue stems from a poorly established timeline. I mentioned their service being short, but that's mostly because I wanted to get past the White Hawks and on to the traitors. That bit may not serve the history so well. I want them to be at full strength during the uprising, for sure. I see the training cadre as potential dominoes. Swaying them will bring the troops under their command, but I don't think they're required for the coup to take place. All it really takes is one belligerent with a strong belief in/attachment to the old ways, and a couple of mistakes for him to use as 'proof'.

See, Chapter civil war matters when the participants and the chapter matters. Look at the Lions of Alba in the last Imprint. These guys feel like plot devices.

Tying in from that, I'm sure that many of the quirks and traditions that make a Chapter unique are defined or at least sanctioned by its new leaders. If he brought nothing new to the table, I could just call them Red Talons, right?

Some, yes, but most would seem likely to evolve over time. A Red Talons Captain is a Red Talons Captain, even when he's also being a White Hawks Chapter Master.

A. I've never really thought of Space Marines as an imaginative lot when it came to insulting things. 'Traitor scum' 'xenos scum' heretic scum'. 'Soulless traitor' seems par for the course. Actually, I've personally always thought that was because Space Marines (except maybe the rowdy ones like Space Wolves) are kind of above tossing around insults. Could just be me, though.

It's a lousy insult because it makes no sense and isn't very insulting. "Your soul is dry!" Ouch.

B.The shortest war in history lasted 40-some-odd minutes. Battle just doesn't seem to do it for something that decides a Chapter's fate.

Colonial curb-stompings don't count.

You think it could be that easy? I imagine the loyalist White Hawks trying to relay what's happening to any nearby Imperial presence, even if just a planetary governor. Perhaps not to ask for help, maybe they're too proud for that, but to make sure its known who the traitors are. The simplest reason, though, is that I wanted some clear cut traitors whistlingW.gif .

In the DAY it takes to wipe them out?

 

If you want clear cut traitors, have the whole chapter go. Don't have a civil war. Civil wars create ambiguity.

This, again, may be scratched up to a poorly established time line(I'm sure I completely missed something in the updated one you made). After they fighting, there were still plenty of them left. As leinmann mentioned, I think between their tech-adept heritage, and what they can salvage, they can hold out. Aren't fleet based Chapter's equipped with manufactorum vessels? Even with limited functionality, if they can make ammo, or weapons, or even replace bits and pieces of armor, I'd say they're in good shape. I don't believe that just because a SM force is not loyalist or chaos that they should be limited to only a handful of marines.

You said they were marooned on the planet. If they're stuck there, they don't have forge ships etc. Also, they don't matter, since they don't have a fleet.

That sounds like a great example of counter-productive Imperial law. If White Hawk claims of treason made it to the right people(Like inquisitor types), how hard can it be for a force to be labeled excommunicate in such a broken system? I'm no fluff historian, so there may be abundant evidence for the other side, but the last time I'm familiar with that Chapters went to war with each other was Badab, which definitely had its fair share of excommunications.

First, they have to tell the Imperial authorities, who aren't really up to the challenge of fighting Marines, don't trust Marines, and who may not technically be in charge of the Marines. The Imperium does NOT have much control.

 

Seriously. Getting the Imperium to prepare a response is an involved process that can take centuries. While you're off whining for help to an organization that you see as basically heretical, the enemy is busy killing you.

 

Second, the DA and the Space Wolves have gone to war seven times in their history.

While you've a good point about the standoffishness, that's part of the reason I usually use second or third generation successors like the Red Talons, because, well, who's to say?

Common sense? Even if the High Lords had an up-to-date report on every Marine of the chapter, why would they risk insulting the chapter by dictating who would form the cadre? Having the chapter do it is easier, likely more effective, and probably more diplomatic. And also probably more practical. Read C:SM 3e some time. Look at how the Imperials have to get info on the Space Marine chapters. They ask nicely. And occasionally get answers.

In search of croc-y inspiration, I was reminded Peter Pan, and presto, Dry Souls. That's where you get the White Hawks, the Iron Hands, the CM and the Captain, the War, everything on Direita II, and go easy on poor Semeesius, he's trying to make the most of his unfortunate name. I'm afraid I'm a sucker for 'crossovers'. The battle-cry is a left over of that first idea, and while I like it, I'm sure it could be improved. I'll think on it, and am open to suggestions.

Well, in that case, you have several problems.

 

First, the rebel's not named Aduncus or Aduncatus.

 

Second, the loyalist Captain doesn't kill him in a duel which requires him to cheat, thus providing the traitor Captain with a moral victory even as he dies.

 

Third, Semesius is pronounced the same but without the elongated "eeeee" which makes the other name so awful.

Hopefully the above answers your last question as well, though, full disclosure, I'm nuts about pirates and DAT has already dominated the Kraken/PotC scene, so that's also contributory.

Not really. Are you trying for pirates? A crocodile theme? Both? Is the civil war required?

 

Crocodile-themed pirates, I've got a decent way to do the whole schism thing, if you like. I've got ideas that can make them traitors without it. Peter Pan-themed pirates, I've also got something. Crocodile-themed Peter Pan-themed is trickier, but possible. Also, a circumspect and careful use of quotes would help a lot.

 

What do you want from this? Is this crocodiles? Civil war? Both?

[Messor]

Seriously. They sound like their arch-enemies should be the Foot Cream Legion.

In the hunt for new names, I've considered the general murderousness of croc's and the particular taste the one in the story had for Hook. Hasn't gotten me real far, but ideas are coming. Aquilanus' inspiration led me to Jaws Esurient, though that still has a distinctly loyalist feel and sounds a little weird to me. But in the same vein they could be the Ravenous or Voracious Jaws.

The Iron Hands always add a semi-interesting wrinkle to new foundings - specifically, do they draw from different Clan Companies or from one? The only example we really have is the Sons of Medusa, who are non-conventional anyway.

 

Also, do the Ad Mech even believe in the Emperor's Tarot?

I like to think that new foundings are drawn from different companies, but that's just an opinion. Especially where such independent companies like the Clan's are concerned, it could prevent things like one clan having an ace-in-hole successor if some kind of conflict arose in the Iron Hands(however unlikely). At the same time, a diverse training cadre answers to the whole of the Iron Hands for their conduct.

 

Can't say about the Ad Mech and the Tarot. Is the Tarot the kind of thing that can be used to find lost tech?

Rites of Battle thinks there are more BA successors than Imperial Fists. It also thinks there are as many DA as BA. Oh, and they think the Salamanders have the least pure geneseed of all - worse geneseed than the Raven Guard, who apparently have geneseed of the same purity as the IH and WS. I take it with a large grain of salt.

 

I just don't think Marines who are greedy and ambitious are likely to be selected for a training cadre. There's Chaplains, there's Librarians, etc. There's controls in place. They're not perfect, but if you're choosing ten or twenty Marines to go to a new Chapter, I think you're pretty damn careful about it. For example, you DON'T send two Captains, one of whom is more senior to the other but is going to serve as the other's junior.

Right, noted on Rites of Battle. I did think it was strange how impure the Salamander geneseed was considered.

 

Neither greedy nor ambitious apply here, though. Uptight maybe, traditionalist, old fashioned maybe, but ambition wasn't a factor. While you don't send two Captain's, I can't think of any reason not to send two veterans. Does seniority weigh so heavily in the Iron Hands?

See, Chapter civil war matters when the participants and the chapter matters. Look at the Lions of Alba in the last Imprint. These guys feel like plot devices.

Hm. That will certainly take some work and possibly some reshuffled priorities. I have some thoughts on the White Hawks' purpose, or more accurate, the meaning behind the Tarot reading that created them, but technically they are plot devices in the end. Doesn't mean they have to be obvious though.

Some, yes, but most would seem likely to evolve over time. A Red Talons Captain is a Red Talons Captain, even when he's also being a White Hawks Chapter Master.

I think in this case, any at all are enough. I can add reason's that might prompt change, obstacles they adapt to overcome, but again, the White Hawks are there to be the Little White Bird.

It's a lousy insult because it makes no sense and isn't very insulting. "Your soul is dry!" Ouch.

The insult wasn't word for word 'You have dry souls'. That would definitely be a lame insult. It won't matter if the name changes, though.

Colonial curb-stompings don't count.

Why not? The length may change, it was only a day and a night because that's the time most adaptations take in Neverland. 24hrs(Could be longer in this system), seems like plenty of time for 5-700 marines to kill each other, especially if they knock a ship out of the sky every now and then.

In the DAY it takes to wipe them out?

 

If you want clear cut traitors, have the whole chapter go. Don't have a civil war. Civil wars create ambiguity.

If no one can send one message in that time...I don't know what to think.

 

I see what you mean about ambiguity, but both Pan and Hook are quite ambiguous, and war is what they have.

You said they were marooned on the planet. If they're stuck there, they don't have forge ships etc. Also, they don't matter, since they don't have a fleet.

Do forge ships have to be in the air to be forge ships? I guess marooned is too strong a word. They're stuck with the equivalent of a rowboat to transport a man-o-war's compliment of marines.

First, they have to tell the Imperial authorities, who aren't really up to the challenge of fighting Marines, don't trust Marines, and who may not technically be in charge of the Marines. The Imperium does NOT have much control.

 

Seriously. Getting the Imperium to prepare a response is an involved process that can take centuries. While you're off whining for help to an organization that you see as basically heretical, the enemy is busy killing you.

 

Second, the DA and the Space Wolves have gone to war seven times in their history.

Seems like bad news for marines or any Imperial forces really if it takes centuries for them to find out who's on their side. How were forces organized to fight the Badab War traitors?

Common sense? Even if the High Lords had an up-to-date report on every Marine of the chapter, why would they risk insulting the chapter by dictating who would form the cadre? Having the chapter do it is easier, likely more effective, and probably more diplomatic. And also probably more practical. Read C:SM 3e some time. Look at how the Imperials have to get info on the Space Marine chapters. They ask nicely. And occasionally get answers.

It doesn't have to be the High Lords making the call though. It can just as easily be the Red Talons themselves.

Well, in that case, you have several problems.

 

First, the rebel's not named Aduncus or Aduncatus.

 

Second, the loyalist Captain doesn't kill him in a duel which requires him to cheat, thus providing the traitor Captain with a moral victory even as he dies.

 

Third, Semesius is pronounced the same but without the elongated "eeeee" which makes the other name so awful.

Problems? Options, maybe.

1.There are multiple terms describing hooks in latin. Inancas comes from a verb.

2.I went the disney route, so the loyalist got bombed, and the traitor was simply lost to the void. I'm curious, though, how would you describe warriors like Space Marines cheating? Seems like they would be trained to use any advantage. Might be interesting to try.

3.I considered that, it does look better than Semeesius, but at the same time, doesn't really make you think 'Smee'. I'll edit it though, just so no one is having uncomfortably nasal experiences XD.

Not really. Are you trying for pirates? A crocodile theme? Both? Is the civil war required?

 

Crocodile-themed pirates, I've got a decent way to do the whole schism thing, if you like. I've got ideas that can make them traitors without it. Peter Pan-themed pirates, I've also got something. Crocodile-themed Peter Pan-themed is trickier, but possible. Also, a circumspect and careful use of quotes would help a lot.

 

What do you want from this? Is this crocodiles? Civil war? Both?

One of the above. Pan. Crocodile gets to be the symbol, and the geneseed flaw, but was never a main theme. The rest all comes from J.M. Barrie. I will surely produce some quotes to help communicate things, though I usually save that for the end. I'll start to work on some after drafting up the beliefs section. So this has crocodiles, but it is not crocodiles, and has civil war, but is not civil war.

[Octavulg]

In the hunt for new names, I've considered the general murderousness of croc's and the particular taste the one in the story had for Hook. Hasn't gotten me real far, but ideas are coming. Aquilanus' inspiration led me to Jaws Esurient, though that still has a distinctly loyalist feel and sounds a little weird to me. But in the same vein they could be the Ravenous or Voracious Jaws.

You're drunk, aren't you. That's OK. Ferrata used to drink. Like a fish. Ah, I remember the days when we'd all dodge the bottles he hurled...

 

In any case, while those are better names than Dry Souls, they're also worse than almost every suggestion in that naming thread as well.

I like to think that new foundings are drawn from different companies, but that's just an opinion. Especially where such independent companies like the Clan's are concerned, it could prevent things like one clan having an ace-in-hole successor if some kind of conflict arose in the Iron Hands(however unlikely). At the same time, a diverse training cadre answers to the whole of the Iron Hands for their conduct.

The Iron Hands barely talk to their Second Founding successors. I wouldn't worry about a successor coming back and involving themselves.

 

Why bother having them be Iron Hands successors, anyway? If you want to do Peter Pan, the Ultramarines would work as well. Better, even - they're not as paranoid about impurity.

Can't say about the Ad Mech and the Tarot. Is the Tarot the kind of thing that can be used to find lost tech?

Reading entrails can be used to find lost tech if you're lucky/credulous enough. This is a long way of saying you may be expecting too much of our knowledge of a fictional ambiguous divination system.

Neither greedy nor ambitious apply here, though. Uptight maybe, traditionalist, old fashioned maybe, but ambition wasn't a factor. While you don't send two Captain's, I can't think of any reason not to send two veterans. Does seniority weigh so heavily in the Iron Hands?

I doubt it. But it'd still make sense to ensure that the Marines you sent had a clear (and accepted) leader.

Why not? The length may change, it was only a day and a night because that's the time most adaptations take in Neverland. 24hrs(Could be longer in this system), seems like plenty of time for 5-700 marines to kill each other, especially if they knock a ship out of the sky every now and then.

Except if they have any sense, they'll flee when things start going badly. Land on the planet, try to hide out, that sort of thing. Or just hide in the bowels of their various ships.

If no one can send one message in that time...I don't know what to think.

You're assuming the message will reliably reach the Imperium. Warp communication isn't exactly reliable.

Do forge ships have to be in the air to be forge ships? I guess marooned is too strong a word. They're stuck with the equivalent of a rowboat to transport a man-o-war's compliment of marines.

If they have anything with interstellar capability, they have something big enough to transport hundreds. Starships are BIG. Anything smaller than that isn't much of a threat to shipping.

 

Besides, the Neverland pirates don't do much actual piracy, as I recall. The occasional raid on locals, but there aren't any other ships to pirate.

Seems like bad news for marines or any Imperial forces really if it takes centuries for them to find out who's on their side. How were forces organized to fight the Badab War traitors?

Yes it does. And the Space Marines basically involved themselves in the Badab War - Imperial forces took action really, really slowly.

It doesn't have to be the High Lords making the call though. It can just as easily be the Red Talons themselves.

*Blink blink*

 

You said the traitors blame Terra for the choice in Chapter Master...

1.There are multiple terms describing hooks in latin. Inancas comes from a verb.

My own searchings don't turn it up as a term for hook, but fair enough.

 

Naming him Ioannes Inancas might also work well.

2.I went the disney route, so the loyalist got bombed, and the traitor was simply lost to the void. I'm curious, though, how would you describe warriors like Space Marines cheating? Seems like they would be trained to use any advantage. Might be interesting to try.

Honor duels and all that. I'm sure ritual combat can have particular rules and conventions.

One of the above. Pan. Crocodile gets to be the symbol, and the geneseed flaw, but was never a main theme. The rest all comes from J.M. Barrie. I will surely produce some quotes to help communicate things, though I usually save that for the end. I'll start to work on some after drafting up the beliefs section. So this has crocodiles, but it is not crocodiles, and has civil war, but is not civil war.

IMO, there are two sides you can focus on for Peter Pan. You can focus on Peter, or you can focus on Hook. They're basically the main characters. Personally, I think Hook's more interesting. But either way, if you kill them off, the story's over. And there's no fun in that.

 

What I'd do, turning the theme up fairly high (on the assumption that it's easier to turn it down again):

Neverland

System trapped in a warp storm with occasional channels out which allow messages (and very, very rarely, ships). The warp storm has only lasted for a few decades, and time is actually running even slower within it. Several worlds, only one of which is inhabited. Call it Farland, maybe.

 

Lost Boys

The remains of the Space Marine chapter that once had their home world here. Call 'em the White Hawks if you want. Now lead by the relatively youthful leader of the Tenth Company. Short on power armor - number maybe a company.

 

The system was victim to a large renegade invasion as the Warp Storms began to descend. Many of the pirates fled, rather than risk being trapped (they weren't very chaotic), but most of the chapter fleet was destroyed, along with most of the chapter. Maybe a rapid strike vessel or two survived.

 

Pirates

Piratical Chaos Space Marines who destroyed the White Hawk's Fortress Monastery (daemons are very helpful), though their leader's hand was lost in a duel with the Tenth Company Captain. They now use the remains of that monastery as their base, and maintain a rapid strike vessel.

 

Ioannes Inancas, their leader, is rumoured to have served under Abaddon as a Captain, and with Huron Blackheart. He could worship a more martial aspect of Khorne, and thus have a pronounced sense of honour.

 

They're made up of the few dedicated worshippers of Chaos amongst the renegade chapter(s) who attacked the system.

 

Oh, and they're called the Lurkers Vile (or the Vile Lurkers). It's awkward, but it lets you do this:

 

Never smile at the Lurkers Vile, no you can't be friendly with the Lurkers Vile... - Farlandian Nursery Rhyme

 

Indians and Mermaids

Tribal society on one planet, fishing colonies on a water world. The pirates raid them both at times, while the few remaining loyalists try to protect them. Could have them both be on the same world, just in different part. A psyker on the planet has predicted that the Warp Storms will relent for a brief period very soon - long enough to evacuate, if all is in readiness.

The White Hawks sent an astropathic message through the storm, asking for the resources to evacuate the planetary population and assistance. They got...

 

The Darlings

Inquisitor and retinue who the Lost Boys hope will give them the edge over the Pirates and enable them to evacuate the system. They anticipate that further help will arrive. The Inquisitor knows differently, and has her own motives.

 

If you're more fatalistic, have the White Hawks be obsessed with destroying the Lurkers Vile, unconcerned with the populace. That'll give you:

 

"It will be our death, White Hawks. But to die will be an awful, great adventure." - Praetorius Faunus, Captain of the White Hawks Tenth Company

 

Anyway. That's how I'd do it. You can do similar themes and things, but there's still tension. And there's no need to worry about a civil war, or the origins of the pirates.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Octavulg

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Alternate names:

 

Soulless [insert something here, like "Slayers"]- you already used this in the intro, why not go all the way?

 

Soul [insert a word that means "destroyed," like "Tearers," "Rippers," "Crushers," "Grinders"]

 

Thornbacks- use this for the crocodile species' name as well, as "thorn" sounds more threatening than "pebble"

 

Alternate battle cries:

 

"Our blades thirst!"- modification of Gotrek's battle cry

[Captain Badger]

 

Direita II is a world roughly similar to ancient Terra, with geographic diversity and a multitude of accompanying climes. The White Hawks' Civil War not only showered vast areas with debris, but several of the Chapter's ships are still buried in it's surface. The Dry Souls have concentrated themselves around the remains of the Black Castle and the Void Rogue which both fell in a marshy region between a large river and the planet's single great ocean. The Dry Souls have since discovered small pockets of native humans, tribals that manage live on the knifes edge of life on Direita II.

 

The planet earned its title as a deathworld for two primary reasons. A toxic mineral sometimes found on the surface, but concentrated further underground as deep as the planet's crust has rendered the planet undesirable for colonization, and useless for mining. The mineral, known to natives as 'skull rock' for its coloration and recognizable deep pock markings, often releases lethal hallucinogenic dust residue into the air, making it unbreathable by any but the Space Marines until it is subdued by the rains. Due in part to this, the natives usually in the forests or swamps in elevated or treetop communities, where the dust is both less likely to penetrate, and too heavy to rise. The raised dwellings are also necessary to escape from the planet's dominant life, the pebble men. Named for their scaly, ridged backs, the pebble men are four legged reptiles of immense size and brutal strength. With jaws up to half as long as their considerable bodies, and keen senses, Dry Souls scouts have encountered these predators hunting in every environment on the planet except the barren mountains. Apparently immune to the toxic dust, and with bottomless appetites, they have been attributed to the disappearance of more than one foolish recruit. Worse still, as the most fertile part of the planet, the swamps, and thus the Dry Souls and some of the native tribes, are host to the yearly mating migration of the pebble backs, as the Dry Souls call them.

 

 

I liked this, including the "pebble backs". I assume it is the name given to them by the natives, its thematic, just becuae thier vicious doesn't mean they need a cartoonishly vicious name. Perhaps come up with some nonsensical word that sounds cool that "pebble backs" was translated from. The skull rock thing struck me as very original but how do the natives protect themselves from it? Do they tread only where is is not, or do they fasion masks soaked in -insert anything- Bear Grylls style.

 

The one thing I would like to see expanded is the lives of the natives. They seem to only get a passing mention. Its clear that they must be nails to survive on a death world but what really makes them Astartes material (if they are being recruited from that is). Is it thier warring clans? Do they hunt the Pebble backs as some sort of tradition or merely out of necessity. I think this needs to be defined otherwise they are just urchins eating algae and living up trees.

 

Its not going to make o break the chapters fluff, but it would add some depth. Also how have the Dry Souls been affected by thier new world, what have they taken from it?

[Messor]

Ok, some more work done. Bjorn, I appreciate the suggestions, Thornbacks stuck out to me, so I rolled with it, as well as an adaptation of that battle-cry. Where does it come from, exactly?

 

Anyway, now the only lingering reference to the old name is the quote, which I'll replace when I come up with the rest of the quotes. Cap'n Badger, I also tried to add a little more about the natives, and I may still try to go back and incorporate more of your questions.

 

Octavulg, again, thanks for the intense feedback. Why Iron Hands? Iron hands, of course! I've tried to make the White Hawks creation a little smoother/clearer, as well as a shot at incorporating your idea about the duel.

 

I liked the name suggestion for Hook, though I went with a variation of James instead of John.

 

Also fixed(still mostly outline) beliefs bit about blaming Terra for the CM.

 

I'm thinking of maybe having some of the White Hawks survive, and make it to the planet, but this is all kind of an alternate version where Pan and Hook are gone, and Smee's in charge, whose character is a little strange and unknown(meaning I don't want to delve into left-over White Hawks leadership). On the other hand, it could focus the Thornbacks' hate/beliefs.

 

What else...ah, as to the marooning. I still haven't nailed down any fleet specifics, but I'm thinking of the following: One strike cruiser(warp capable, dangerous, able to bring about 100 marines to a fight) survived, and perhaps another is crippled in orbit, being repaired. In the meantime, the marines take to the remaining Rapid Strike Vessels(These are also warp capable, right? Just not usually crewed by marines), so are able to move/deploy maybe half their number at a time. The Rapid Strike crews would then be the close knit groups mentioned in the combat doctrine.

 

Started a recruitment section, and the beliefs section.

 

Anyone's thoughts on if it would add anything/be characterful for the mineral dust to induce hallucinations of flying(which either cause people to stray into croc territory, or just die of fever)?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Ok, some more work done. Bjorn, I appreciate the suggestions, Thornbacks stuck out to me, so I rolled with it, as well as an adaptation of that battle-cry. Where does it come from, exactly?

Glad to be of help. As for the battle cry, it came from William King's 'Gotrek and Felix' novels- the original was, "My axe thirsts!" (Gotrek, a dwarven slayer, uses an enchanted axe).

[Octavulg]

Quote

Anyway, now the only lingering reference to the old name is the quote, which I'll replace when I come up with the rest of the quotes.

As a suggestion, coming up with quotes has sometimes helped me get insight into where I want to go with a particular section. If you're having difficulty with any in particular, that is.

Quote

Octavulg, again, thanks for the intense feedback.

Intense is, indeed, a word for it.

Quote

Why Iron Hands? Iron hands, of course!

Of course.

Quote

I've tried to make the White Hawks creation a little smoother/clearer, as well as a shot at incorporating your idea about the duel.

I'll take a look in the near future. I's sleepy.

Quote

I liked the name suggestion for Hook, though I went with a variation of James instead of John.

*Facepalm* Right. I was confused. Meant Jacobus.

Quote

What else...ah, as to the marooning. I still haven't nailed down any fleet specifics, but I'm thinking of the following: One strike cruiser(warp capable, dangerous, able to bring about 100 marines to a fight) survived, and perhaps another is crippled in orbit, being repaired. In the meantime, the marines take to the remaining Rapid Strike Vessels(These are also warp capable, right? Just not usually crewed by marines), so are able to move/deploy maybe half their number at a time. The Rapid Strike crews would then be the close knit groups mentioned in the combat doctrine.

A Strike Cruiser could still fit a hundred Space Marines. They're still big 40K ships. It's more that it'd lack the facilities to support them in combat readiness.

Quote

Anyone's thoughts on if it would add anything/be characterful for the mineral dust to induce hallucinations of flying(which either cause people to stray into croc territory, or just die of fever)?

Could do. Could not. Hard to say.

[Messor]

After looking at specs for cruisers and frigate, I take it you meant Rapid Strike Vessels? They are certainly much larger than I expected. I'd prefer something smaller, but at the same time, its not a big deal if they can all deploy at ones. 'S probably been the downfall of many a traitor force, greedy, blood thirsty sem vergonhas.

 

Updates/edits made to all sections. More on the locals, organization, beliefs and gene-seed, as well as a number of shiny sidebars and quotes that hopefully bring in some more character.

 

Ideas still on the table:

Still not sure about the above mentioned hallucinations caused by the 'rock. Inclined to discard it.

 

Considering some things for recruitment, like giving the pebblebacks a 'taste' for humans/marines. After each ritual amputation, the beast is let go and replaced. I could do a couple things with that; a) the blind beast could just hunt the marine til death, putting every recruit on guard when planetside, as each one has a croc after it. b ) Recruits are given a temporary prosthesis and the chance to hunt down the croc that took his hand. Succeed and maybe the get an adamantine model of the hand(bones) made into the permanent bionic replacement, and/or some croc teeth in your chainsword.

 

Iron Brethren, mentioned a couple times. I was loathe to just use Chaplains, but there's no knowing what the Red Talons use, and having an Iron Father ~equivalent seemed to fit. Does it?

 

Kinda want to do something special for the former homeworld, but feels like it might detract instead of add.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Messor

[Firepower]

I liked the old name more I'll try to find some more constructive (read: nitpicky) notes on my second read through...once I stop seeing spots from the first one. Reading off the computer hurts.

 

Edit-

Though the Chapter's centuries of service were honorable, they did not last.

Which, the Chapter or the honorable centuries? Confusing pronoun is confusing.

The same reading of the Emperor's tarot that called for the new Chapter, made an unusual specification

That comma is unnecessary

: it was to be lead by its youngest veteran.

How does one define 'youngest veteran?' The later sentence about Nomios' appointment to the 1st company kind of answers the question, but it's a strange order to the thought..process...thing. You know what I mean.

 

Does the Chapter master relinquish control everytime a younger veteran shows up? Was the Tarot's order a one off? And if so, how would there be a youngest veteran already?

 

Nitpicking is fun!

gene-legcy

Ahem...

Civil war had erupted.

Drop 'had.' It isn't needed, and "Civil war erupted" sounds a touch more dramatic

Notwithstanding their staggering losses

Their staggering losses notwithstanding

The Captain had enough time to claim Nomios an unworthy coward before his throat was slit by his own knife.

I like this line.

Setting the ragged ship to crash into the planet, Nomios and his marines abandoned the ship.

A bit redundant. 'Nomios and his marines abandoned ship after locking it into a crash course with the planet.'

 

 

In time, though, the remaining traitors came to master it, and call it home.

Unnecessary comma.

Casting aside their old identity, they have taken a name from the deadliest beasts on the planet, calling themselves the Thornbacks.

Kind of a strange sentence structure. Maybe something like 'They cast away their old identity, taking up instead the name of the planet's deadliest beasts, the Thornbacks.'

The Dry Souls have since discovered small pockets of native humans, tribals that manage live on the knife's edge of life on Direita II.

Life.

The planet earned its title as a deathworld for two primary reasons.

It's a title? Serious question.

A toxic mineral sometimes found on the surface, but concentrated further underground as deep as the planet's crust has rendered the planet undesirable for colonization, and useless for mining.

'The planet's inhospitable nature is a result of a toxic mineral concentrated as deep as its crust, but sometimes found on the surface.' That still doesn't really flow neatly. I'd drop the bit about its true depth altogether, along with the note on mining.

The only real guarantee of safety is to avoid the surface deposits, and these areas have been taboo among the tribes for generations.

Taboo is not a good word to use here. Entrance or visits to the area can be taboo, but the word doesn't really fit as a description for an area of land. Taboo generally applies to actions.

The traitors have adopted the beasts as their symbol and name, calling themselves the Thornbacks.

We know. You told us that already.

Worse still, as the most fertile part of the planet, the swamps, and thus the Thornbacks and some of the native tribes, are host to the yearly mating migration of the pebble men.

....what?

This is the greatest trial of the natives, when the hunger of the reptiles reaches such a height that should potential prey be spotted, as many as fifty of the beasts may converge on it. This has taught the natives a degree of patience to rival that of the creatures themselves, as a wrong movement in sight of the pebblemen can endanger an entire settlement.

Confusing sentence structure here. Try 'When the reptiles' hunger reaches its zenith, the natives face their greatest trial. As many as fifty of the beasts will converge on a single bit of prey in these dangerous time. This has taught the natives patience that rivals that of the predators, as a single wrong movement can endanger an entire settlement'

 

I'll stop here for now. Seeing spots again.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Firepower

[Messor]

I liked the old name more I'll try to find some more constructive (read: nitpicky) notes on my second read through...once I stop seeing spots from the first one. Reading off the computer hurts.

 

Edit-

What, Dry Souls? Heh, we were in the minority there, brother.

Which, the Chapter or the honorable centuries? Confusing pronoun is confusing.

Centuries. Woulda used an 'it' or something for the Chapter, but I'll sort it out.

How does one define 'youngest veteran?' The later sentence about Nomios' appointment to the 1st company kind of answers the question, but it's a strange order to the thought..process...thing. You know what I mean.

 

Does the Chapter master relinquish control everytime a younger veteran shows up? Was the Tarot's order a one off? And if so, how would there be a youngest veteran already?

I'll work on the order. This is ONE young veteran, the youngest of the Red Talons.

A bit redundant. 'Nomios and his marines abandoned ship after locking it into a crash course with the planet.'

Blessed be your name brother! There was monstrous wall in my mind keeping me from fixing what was wrong with that phrase! I'm free!

 

 

The Dry Souls have since discovered small pockets of native humans, tribals that manage live on the knife's edge of life on Direita II.

Life.

 

 

Heh, looks like I also missed an instance of 'Dry Souls'. Are you referring to it being redundant? Cuz that's what I see now.

It's a title? Serious question.

Classification might be a better word.

'The planet's inhospitable nature is a result of a toxic mineral concentrated as deep as its crust, but sometimes found on the surface.' That still doesn't really flow neatly. I'd drop the bit about its true depth altogether, along with the note on mining.

This is mostly meant to justify why an otherwise rich planet sees zero use in the Imperium.

....what?

The swamps are the migration hotspot for pebblebacks during mating season. Its also where most tribes settle to get away from the dust, and where the salvaged Marine facilities are. I'll try to clear that up.

[Firepower]

Blessed be your name brother!

Firepower is a blessing in and of itself. Honestly I never get tired of the Firepower puns.

 

 

....what?

The swamps are the migration hotspot for pebblebacks during mating season. Its also where most tribes settle to get away from the dust, and where the salvaged Marine facilities are. I'll try to clear that up.

 

 

I was referring to the quoted sentence with that 'what?' It is...wrong. It broke a part of my brain. But I wasn't using that bit anyway.

[Messor]

I was trying to clear up that sentence...I'll take that as I failed.