How essential is an Aegis Defense Line?

[UltraTacSgt]

 Assuming a list does NOT have a flier of its own, or any units that possess the skyfire or interceptor rules. How important do you think it is to have an Aegis Defense Line, or some other fortification with a skyfire/interceptor weapon.

 

 My list personally is C:SM and has plenty of weapons that can shoot snap shots at a flier if necessary, but it has no true AA.

 

This is a question that affects many players though, and I couldn't find a thread for it in the search so I'm opening up this discussion.

 

 This question could also be approached as, "How essential is having proper Skyfire/Interceptor AA", but I am looking to add a ADL/Quad so that's the why I mention it specifically.

[Giga]

It's essential. It can change entire battles, not just because of the quad-gun (which is always good to have), but because of the defense line itself. Having your entire army have 4+ save when your opponent's gunline or droppod list or w/e gets first turn against you is invaluable.

[Kierdale]

I'll second Giga's comment, and though you mentioned you don't use IG, Aegis can be very effective for mortals as they can Go To Ground for a 2+ save, then a CCS can use Get Back In The Fight to cancel the GtG in their own turn and shoot as normal.

[Azash]

I would have to agree as with the others but not just "aegis" its really some sort of fortification. As much as it makes me cringe 6th edition is a devolution from the mechanized blitzkrieg of 5th to an almost trench warfare style of 40k.

 

There are several contributing factors (fortifications are a minor one) to this but the bottom line is some sort of entrenchment is needed.

[Giga]

Well, I wouldn't say "any type of fortification". While having a building (like a bastion or a fortress of redemption) in your deployment zone is cool, it's really just one bunker and the rest of your army still has to rely on natural terrain to get cover saves.

 

On the other hand, the defense line is indestructible, cheap, and you can spread it in a way that you get 4+ cover saves to your entire army. Add night fighting rules to the mix and you're looking at 0+/2+ cover saves on turn 1, depending on range. 

[infornography]

If you are not taking any other dedicated anti air, I'd rate it as very important.  It's not going to down an enemy storm raven but it can do a number on dakka jets and necron scythes.

 

Keep in mind, you will hit with one fourth as many shots when snap firing at a flyer.  Space Marines are balanced toward leveraging our superior ballistic skill.  When you remove that you are investing far too many points to drop that bird. 

an even better option however is (if your local club allows forge world) a contemptor mortis.

[Naminé]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that it is not essential, in fact, often it can be detrimental due to the static playstyle it encourages.

 

If the enemy only has 1 or 2 flyers, there are ways of dealing with that without taking a fortification or any kind of dedicated firepower.  Weight of fire is the most common, but even a tactical squad can be dangerous when sat on a skyfire nexus.  Personally I favour the route of ignoring the enemy flyers and focusing on the other problems.  Generally if a list has flyers it has had to scrimp on something else, so take advantage of that.

 

When the enemy list has flyer spam, then things become much more difficult without some kind of skyfire, but remember they are more likely to overextend themselves in the process.  You can still employ disruption tactics by interfering with their reserve rolls.  Some of the easiest games I've had came from alpha-striking a flyer spam list, messing with their reserve rolls and then sitting back for the rest of the game, picking them off one at a time.

 

In summary then, An Aegis Defense line is useful, but take a fortification to enhance your list, instead of building your list around it.  It will not do enough on its own.

[Morollan]

The Helldrake has probably dissuaded many people from taking an ADL as those monstrosities don't care at all if you're behind one. The rest of the army just takes out the Quadgun on turn one and suddenly you have a sizeable chunk of your army essentially standing out in the open waiting for death from above.

 

Nothing to do with GW wanting to sell loads of Helldrakes at £45 a pop!

[tvih]

I've found it pretty essential for any sort of gunline list myself. That extra survivability for units that would be sitting back anyway is very valuable.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Well, I wouldn't say "any type of fortification". While having a building (like a bastion or a fortress of redemption) in your deployment zone is cool, it's really just one bunker and the rest of your army still has to rely on natural terrain to get cover saves.

 

On the other hand, the defense line is indestructible, cheap, and you can spread it in a way that you get 4+ cover saves to your entire army. Add night fighting rules to the mix and you're looking at 0+/2+ cover saves on turn 1, depending on range. 

 

I agree with this. Better than bastion.

 

One thing though it is essential to have at least one quad gun against flying Deamon princes. The monsters destroy my battle line all the time.

[AyanamiKun]

To me it is very helpful. It is not essential but my DA army likes it a lot. I have mobile squads to capture objective but use an Aegis with quad gun and some dakka dreads and Devestators as my firebase. Sometimes I also put my libby with force field generator there to give my dreads an additional 4+ invul save next to him if I expect someone to deny me the cover safe.

[minigun762]

A nice thing about a bastion as an alternative is that it gives you the chance to hide units behind it instead of just getting a cover save. It also adds saturation value to a vehicle heavy list.

[Ming]

As an Ultramarine Player, I'm always looking for the best value, and it is pretty hard to find a better value than the quad gun, period.  It is just dang cheap for what it can do, comparable to a thunderfire cannon in (simple) respects. Heck, you don't have to use the Aegis line in your own deployment zone, and the quad gun IIRR does not have to be deployed with it. 

 

If you are a mech army that advances into the assault, the quad gun becomes part of your overwatch element.

 

If you are a drop pod army, the quad gun can be part of your pre-drop deployment.

 

If you are a chaos Marine player, with a helldrake, it can be both bait, trap, and AA.

 

I'd offer that they are so prevalent, you could just provide them on-board for players to use or ignore in tournament scenarios...

 

Nuff said.       

[PaganLinuxGeek]

As an Ultramarine Player, I'm always looking for the best value, and it is pretty hard to find a better value than the quad gun, period.  It is just dang cheap for what it can do, comparable to a thunderfire cannon in (simple) respects. Heck, you don't have to use the Aegis line in your own deployment zone, and the quad gun IIRR does not have to be deployed with it. 

 

If you are a mech army that advances into the assault, the quad gun becomes part of your overwatch element.

 

If you are a drop pod army, the quad gun can be part of your pre-drop deployment.

 

If you are a chaos Marine player, with a helldrake, it can be both bait, trap, and AA.

 

I'd offer that they are so prevalent, you could just provide them on-board for players to use or ignore in tournament scenarios...

 

Nuff said.       

Frequently my friend and I play with a pair of quadguns and much aegis line pre-existing on the game board as "abandoned" and it really does make the game more interesting. Especially since we both love flyers ;-)

[*Furyou Miko]

*Shrug* I've never actually fielded one and I do just fine. I find that four heavy bolters do the job against most flyers, and for everything else, there's exorcists and twin-linked meltaguns.

[eyeslikethunder]

Only problem I find can the fact that it is the first piece deployed by raw before other terrain

[Morollan]

*Shrug* I've never actually fielded one and I do just fine. I find that four heavy bolters do the job against most flyers, and for everything else, there's exorcists and twin-linked meltaguns.

 

I shot 4 twin-linked heavy bolters at a flyer yesterday and did nothing :(

[PaganLinuxGeek]

To each their own, but I prefer the quad-gun to 4 twin linked heavy bolters. The quads pack more punch, and with Telion manning you can use the improved bs. Not to mention that they are scoring for the backfield objective, and the aegis line provides cover save for models behind it.

 

As an Ultramarine Player, I'm always looking for the best value, and it is pretty hard to find a better value than the quad gun, period. It is just dang cheap for what it can do, comparable to a thunderfire cannon in (simple) respects. Heck, you don't have to use the Aegis line in your own deployment zone, and the quad gun IIRR does not have to be deployed with it.

Whoa, I missed that. I was told that the Gun Emplacement was PART of the Aegis Line and had to be deployed in contact with it. The quans can be deployed anywhere in my dz even if it doesn't touch any part of the aegis line?

[Atlantic]

4 twin linked heavy bolters won't do anything against a stormraven.

 

I think the defense line with the quad gun might be essential for a number of reasons.

 

Im not a fan. Marines shouldn't be babysitting walls. They ought to be pressing the attack!

[Giga]

Furyou Miko, on 20 Feb 2013 - 12:04, said:

*Shrug* I've never actually fielded one and I do just fine. I find that four heavy bolters do the job against most flyers, and for everything else, there's exorcists and twin-linked meltaguns.

What?

 

Heavy bolters can't even harm the really deadly fliers (stormraven, dragon, vendetta), and they hit & glance the rest on 6s. Twinlinked meltaguns not only have a really low chance of actually hitting, you then need 4+ just to do something (because nobody in their sane mind is going to bring their flier within 6" of a twinlinked meltagun). As for exorcists, not only are they extremely unreliable against fliers due to their random shooting, they also belong to a currently rather weak SoB codex.

 

Please, stop dispersing bad advice. :/

[mince on toast]

 

Furyou Miko, on 20 Feb 2013 - 12:04, said:

*Shrug* I've never actually fielded one and I do just fine. I find that four heavy bolters do the job against most flyers, and for everything else, there's exorcists and twin-linked meltaguns.

What?

 

Heavy bolters can't even harm the really deadly fliers (stormraven, dragon, vendetta), and they hit & glance the rest on 6s. Twinlinked meltaguns not only have a really low chance of actually hitting, you then need 4+ just to do something (because nobody in their sane mind is going to bring their flier within 6" of a twinlinked meltagun). As for exorcists, not only are they extremely unreliable against fliers due to their random shooting, they also belong to a currently rather weak SoB codex.

 

Please, stop dispersing bad advice. :/

Miko's referring to Retributors (SoB dev squad) AoF making all shooting attacks in the squad incl HB rending ....

such fun at a bargain price   !!

 

I think whats ment is that if you need to down flyers  ..throw enough shots twin linked + high str and it will do the job

 

Haha Exorcist are unreliable full stop.!      thats why you take 3 of them, when they hit  with the full 6 shots i find my opponents stop laughing

 

I dont believe we have a weak codex ,it just takes more practice than most armies as it is very unforgiving

[Giga]

You can take down anything if you're willing to expend enough firepower to do it.

 

However, those fliers cost 100-200 pts. Is it really wise to expend the firepower of 3-4 units just to have a shot at downing one? I'd hazard to say that, more often than not, you're going to want those retributors and exorcists shooting at stuff they can actually harm, rather than hunting 6s vs fliers.

 

This is why you want real skyfire, rather than relying on the remote possibility that your opponent isn't throwing any other threats your way except for a flier or two.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, gotta agree with Giga on this one.  I'm all for units that CAN multi-task, and high-rate of fire units with twin-link can make for decent back-up AA guns.  Note I said "back up AA guns" -- in the current age, you're going to need a primary AA gun.

[Terrified Templar]

I second Giga and Deus, those six missiles are better spent shooting at something on the ground. I like the quad gun because it's versitle and can deal with flyers (obviously), light transports (av10 or 11) and anything with an armour save of 4+ or lower. Your opponent may not laugh when you get 6 missile shots but aim them at a flyer and you fail to hit, he will be the one laughing. I played a nid list back in the early days of 6th and I wasted my shots trying to down his flying MC and the result was me not being to able to thin the horde down enough where I could deal with it comfortably, if it wasn't for Pedro bolstering the line, terminators deep striking at the right time and place and some lucky saves it would have been over for me real quick.

[minigun762]

In this situation, I have to agree with Miko actually.

One of the first rules of successful 40k is target priority. If that flyer can wipe out a large majority of your army and you can't mitigate that enough with tactics, model placement or list building, then you make it a priority target and kill it early and quickly.

 

Drakes and Raven are the best example of this because one is often carrying high value cargo and the other can reliably kill twice it's point cost in MEQ each game.