ac4155 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I started reading the Horus Hersey about a year late, then after the first 9 books I stopped reading again as I'd caught up to the release schedule. However, last week I decided I'd let enough build up again and went out and brought Tales of Hersey. Despite having a custom loyal chapter, I've never really like the Emperor. But after reading The Last Church, Scions of the Storm & After Desh'ea it got me questioning if the Emperor really is anything special. Going of the Last Church and how the Imperium turned out he sees over confident, arrogant and unwilling to listen to reason. It's his way or the highway. Considering he is supposed to be able to foresee, he keeps making mistake after mistake and seemingly overreacts to those who don't see it exactly as he does. For example, taking Angron away from his brothers and sisters on his home world, he 'punished' Lorgar for unintentionally undermining the Imperial Truth, he attacks Magnus and the Thousand Sons for trying to warn him of what was to come (even if this did unintentionally ruin some of the defences of the palace) and probably one of the most important was leaving the front line of the Great Cruised without much elimination. All of this does not strike me as being someone who is all powerful knowing. He seems to be making it up as he goes along, providing that everyone agrees with him unquestioningly. Rather than being anything special, I think he is simply an ordinary psyker who is powerful enough to take advantage of the fact on a massive scale. Smart enough to create a super-genetic army, knows how to fight and is incredibly power hungry. Other than that nothing really special. Admittedly, I'm only ten books in the the Horus Hersey series, but he doesn't come across as being that great and makes far too many mistakes for supposedly being this almighty figure. So, what are your thoughts on the matter. Is the Emperor some mighty being, simply a ordinary psyker who has the power to take advantage of that fact, or something else? AC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The problem atm with the HH series is it's unsympathetic portrayal of the Emperor (which, incidentally, I believe isn't fully intentional, it's just lot's of little things adding up). The only book that goes someway to rectifying how he's perceived by HH readers, I think, is the Outcast Dead. Iirc the Emperor himself states that he can either be powerful or all-knowing, but not both. Whether or not that related solely to his psychic abilities, I can't remember. Probably. I'll give you the thing about Angron, it's a fair point, but he didn't really attack Magnus, he just sent Leman Russ to fetch him for the Emperor to administer a stern telling off (figuratively speaking) but Horus manipulated things and changed the orders so that 'fetch' turned into 'put down'. As for his attitude of it's either his way or the highway, remember that the highway leads to daemons, basically. He's trying to steer humanity away from the pit it had gotten itself into since it's last golden age and I highly doubt he had the patience any more to let some backwater priest misinterpret what the Emperor was and what he stood for. The same stood with Lorgar. I bet the whole 'I am not a god' spiel was wearing quite thin by then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachymike123 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 the emperor is supposed to be the reincarnation of all of the shamens from ancient terra when they saw that the chaos gods were becoming too powerful and consuming souls, thus stopping spirits from reincarnation. he is supposed to have lived since the 8th millenium BC iirc and that he was from central anatolia. basically, he is supposed to be the New Man, the next step in human evolution and pave the way. the trouble is that a lot of the novels that feature the emperor show as being either a twat or arrogant to the point of sticking his fingers in his ears. it would be interesting to see a horus heresy novel written from his point of view i reckon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Crazy Theory # 317: The Emperor, or "Anathema" is in fact, an avatar of the Chaos God of Self Destruction, Malal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Going of the Last Church and how the Imperium turned out he sees over confident, arrogant and unwilling to listen to reason. It's his way or the highway. I must have read a different story by that title. In the story I read, no one of wisdom was talking to the Emperor. The Emperor was talking, and humouring, an ignorant and blinded fool who had lived his entire life based on superstition and erroneous beliefs of how the universe worked. Even after the Emperor had revealed the truth to him, he remained defiantly ignorant. For example, taking Angron away from his brothers and sisters on his home world, he 'punished' Lorgar for unintentionally undermining the Imperial Truth, he attacks Magnus and the Thousand Sons for trying to warn him of what was to come (even if this did unintentionally ruin some of the defences of the palace) and probably one of the most important was leaving the front line of the Great Cruised without much elimination. To be fair, in these instances the Emperor is simply the victim of bad writing. In the earlier lore of 1st and 2nd Edition, the origin of Angron had not really been described. Lorgar had been chastised for being too slow, for wasting time having the populace build gigantic monuments and temples. That he was a dedicated follower of the Imperial Cult was not an issue. Then in 3rd Edition, GW published the Index Astartes series, giving each Primarch more background. Angron's background was expanded, and the bit about the Emperor removing him from his brethren's final battle was added, to give Angron more of a reason to ultimately turn against the Emperor. It was devised not with the intention to make the Emperor look bad, but with the intention to make Angron's betrayal believable. People will sometimes claim the Emperor acted "stupid", when really he chose not to condemn an entire world to war and death when he had the option to save his Primarch without resorting to extreme measures. He was not interfering in the personal affairs of the planet's society, which had condemned Angron and his group as criminals. The schtick about the "Imperial truth" was added for the Horus Heresy series. Along with the plans for the webway portal the Emperor was building on Terra. Probably to make him more ominous, more ambiguous. There had ben no such agendas in previous lore. The Emperor's sole agenda had been to unite the human worlds, and to protect them from the spreading influence of Chaos. He had no problem with the Imperial Cult. Then the Horus Heresy series happened. In the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos and the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article of the Word Bearers, the Emperor had no issue with Lorgars piety. All he was concerned with was that Lorgar was not making much progress in the Great Crusade. A D-B changed that in "The First Heretic". Whether on his own accord or because it was mandated by the ip team I do not know. Suddenly this was not about the slow progress, but all about the displayed devotion. And somehow the Emperor had not noticed or criticised this for the previous 150 years of Crusading. He only just noticed that lorgar was apparently acting contrary to his important agenda of rationalism. And somehow Lorgar had not gotten the memo that the EMperor had such an agenda at all. I often say, as a joke, that Black Library retconned the hell out of the Horus Heresy narrative because it just made too much sense. So they started changing the Legion numbers, the events and important battles, the agendas of the Primarchs and the Emperor, the roles and actions of certain Legions and Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Going of the Last Church and how the Imperium turned out he sees over confident, arrogant and unwilling to listen to reason. It's his way or the highway. I must have read a different story by that title. In the story I read, no one of wisdom was talking to the Emperor. The Emperor was talking, and humouring, an ignorant and blinded fool who had lived his entire life based on superstition and erroneous beliefs of how the universe worked. Even after the Emperor had revealed the truth to him, he remained defiantly ignorant.s. You must be joking, this is like me saying Know No Fear was the story of the kindly priest Kor Phereon bravely defending the innocent people of Calth from the treacherous surprise attacks of the bloodthirsty Roboute Guilliman and his cyan hued hordes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ming Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 So far I vote for bad writing. Hopefully, before the end of the series they will have rectified that.Also, let's not forget that the IA series was to present the "current" information available about the Legions, Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, Scouring, and the backgrounds of certain units (Predators, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, Librarians, Chaplains). So any information that gets contradicted by the HH novels just goes to highlight just how much information/history/knowledge has been lost/destroyed/re-written over 10,000 years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Well, lately I've got this idea stalking my mind: What if the Emperor already knew what was going to happen? Maybe he saw a certain path in the future, a path where he must sacrifice himself to stop chaos. He would had known about the Heresy long before it happened, about Lorgar, Angron, etc... But he chose not to intercede because it would have changed the "safe path". If he had stopped Russ from beating the hell out of Magnus and the Thousand Sons that simple act could change the future where he defeats chaos. If he stopped Lorgar's (or Horus') betrayal maybe an unexpected primarch would have been the great traitor, with unexpected consequences. He was a helluva psyker, if eldar farseers could predict the future, he surely did it as well. Thinking about the Cabal and their predictions, there were two of them: One, where the Big E wins and the galaxy will be eventually consume by chaos and Two, where Horus wins and mankind comes to an end but chaos go to hell (literally). Maybe he saw a third way, one where he lose but Horus too. In that way (supposedly) humanity will prevail and eventually, and with a great cost, will defeats chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Going of the Last Church and how the Imperium turned out he sees over confident, arrogant and unwilling to listen to reason. It's his way or the highway. I must have read a different story by that title. In the story I read, no one of wisdom was talking to the Emperor. The Emperor was talking, and humouring, an ignorant and blinded fool who had lived his entire life based on superstition and erroneous beliefs of how the universe worked. Even after the Emperor had revealed the truth to him, he remained defiantly ignorant.s. You must be joking, this is like me saying Know No Fear was the story of the kindly priest Kor Phereon bravely defending the innocent people of Calth from the treacherous surprise attacks of the bloodthirsty Roboute Guilliman and his cyan hued hordes. I am most certainly not joking. The Priest in that story had lived his entire life dedicated to the next best religion he assumed was based on the personal deity he assumed was visiting him on that past day on the battlefield. He was not exactly the brightest candle. His entire life was based on a lie, a lie no one had pressured him into believing but he himself chose to believe. Because that's how humans are. The Emperor offered him a glimpse of truth. He was not interested. You will find plenty of people who hold onto their personal superstitions inspite of evidence to the contrary all over the world. The difference between the world of 40K and our world is that in 40K, such superstition can lead to the painful death of entire civilisations by the hand of unspeakable horrors. In our world, such people only really do harm if they get to positions of power. Or to their kids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 @ Legatus: The Emperor offered him a glimpse of the truth? Is that what you call wringing one's hands over the slaughters perpetuated of the Aztecs and the Crusaders, while proudly proclaiming that your own soldiers would soon drown the the stars themselves in blood? There was certainly a deluded fool in that story, but it wasn't the priest. For all that you say the Emperor was a "New Man", He has remarkably little to distinguish him from the old men of blood like Alexander or Caesar. An arguement could be made that he's morally INFERIOR to them, since neither Alexander or Caesar would order innocents butchered merely for holding different beliefs than those they espoused. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrified Templar Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 @ Wade Garret Two things you need to keep in mind. First, when the universe is in danger of being overrun by chaos you may need to do things that may not be so pretty, especially when certain beliefs and/or practices lead to literal damnation, its how the world works in 40k. Second this is fiction, it never really happened. (and thank goodness for that, I'd really hate for orks to come through my town, really messes up the local property values and they aren't very tidy either) Also a note on the Aztecs and on the Crusades. The Aztecs were killing thousands of their own people yearly through human sacrifice, would you really want that to still be in place? The Crusades were sent to the Holy Land because the Muslims there were killing the pilgrims that came to see the land in which Christ was born, the Muslims decided to kill them or extort them and so the Crusades were the response. Maybe the Crusaders were worse then the Muslims (I haven't read much on the Crusades so I don't really know) but the Muslims started it, they pushed and Christendom pushed back. Lets try to not bring up stuff like this on a forum that is based on fiction ok? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Well, I certainly wasn't trying to start an atheism vs religon debate, it's just that in the short story Legatus and I are arguing about ("The Last Church", author Graham McNeil, anthology "Tales of Heresy") the Emperor specifically mentions the Aztecs and the Crusaders as justifications for why he's having the Thunder Warriors torch various places of worship and the worshippers therein. I am certainly not trying to say that human sacrifice and wars of faith are a good thing in real life (as opposed to the fictional actions of the High Lords of Terra and Abaddon the Despoiler) merely pointing out that the Emperor looks just a tad hypocritical condemning the excesses of others considering the mayhem the Thunder Warriors unleashed on Terra, and the killing that the various Astartes Legions would do in the near future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darog Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Considering he is supposed to be able to foresee, he keeps making mistake after mistake and seemingly overreacts to those who don't see it exactly as he does. He did not allow any mistakes. "Outcast Dead" has the answers to all the questions. In addition "Angel Exterminatus" said that he predicted his son each role. Essentially all heresy is played out their chess game or a play at the theater. Each Primarch played a role, someone donated, but it was created for this purpose. Emperor certainly bloodthirsty tyrant (for it and love it all) and etch, but he obviously cared about humanity more than the others. All heresy was his plan, which worked out completely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 @ Wade Garret Also a note on the Aztecs and on the Crusades. The Aztecs were killing thousands of their own people yearly through human sacrifice, would you really want that to still be in place? The Crusades were sent to the Holy Land because the Muslims there were killing the pilgrims that came to see the land in which Christ was born, the Muslims decided to kill them or extort them and so the Crusades were the response. Maybe the Crusaders were worse then the Muslims (I haven't read much on the Crusades so I don't really know) but the Muslims started it, they pushed and Christendom pushed back. Lets try to not bring up stuff like this on a forum that is based on fiction ok? Why not? Fiction is based on real life. Besides Migration Period, Aztecs, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Medieval Inquisition, Crusades etc all happened in W40k universe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 There are some historians who would disagree with that synopsis of the Crusades, Terrified Templar and some who would also agree though. Lets just leave it at that ^.^ Regardless, the Big E was playing the long game and is striving to have people evolve into him; the New Man. Paul Muad'dib of Dune fame once said that "the safe road is the road to stagnation" and I agree with the theories of Alpharius in "Legion" where the Emperor is striving to remake and forcibly evolve Mankind into its path to the New Man through the crucible of war. While Outcast Dead certainly answers the questions as to what the Big E's intentions for humanity, survival and victory against it's enemies, were good, it does not make him infallible or mistake free. He even remarks about how he cannot be all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time or something to that sort. If he truly knew the path to take to get to the end game why would he bother playing 'chess' against the 4-Powers and the collective enemies of mankind in the first place or express doubt as to the outcome of the game? Outcast Dead also sheds some doubts as to the whether or not the Emperor was the only one of his kind or just the last man standing. Perhaps there were many "Emperors" such as Dume and others who were also cognoscynths able to shape, bend and control the minds of masses of humans. The Emperor with the "golden eyes" just seems to be the most successful of these, although to his credit he has intervened on humanity's behalf to free them of oppression several times but leaves once the threat is gone (or is driven off by his own men, up for debate). The Eldar never seem to give the Emperor's 'divinity' much thought and they had actual Gods who walked among them; the biggest nod I've seen from that direction is like a "Yeah, he is pretty powerful for a monkeigh." The Last Church is interesting but I hardly see the Emperor as being some enlightened philosopher-king in that one. The Emperor is a conqueror and a tyrant. Space fascist even! He brought 'Fire and Sword' to the priest, attempting to lure him with the Byzantine corruption and bribery so that he would look magnanimous while knowing full well he would eradicate something he disagreed with and thought mankind would be better off without. I can appreciate that the Emperor thought what he was doing was for the betterment of humanity as in Outcast Dead but there are plenty of R/L historical dictators and tyrants who believed their ends were justified and the means were building a brighter future in their eyes. Many of those historical figures are not well looked upon today and history would hardly call many of them just or good kings/dictators/rulers/tyrants or that their visions were better for the world at large. Maybe the Emperor's vision for a "New Man" and the forge of war he tempers humanity in is no different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 The Emperor has existed for 30,000+ years and lived among mankind, guiding them. Even throughout the Age of Technology when mankind first started populating the stars he did not take control. The reason why he is taking control in 30K is because mankind is a few seconds from being swallowed whole by Chaos, so to speak. The human worlds are fractioned and separated, his goal is to reunite them to allow them to stand against the outworld threat. Seriously, watch "Hero" with Jet Li on the matter of a "bloodthirsty" and "warmongering" Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllHailTheMachine Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 The last church is a poor contribution to the series. The character of the emperor seems utterly incapable of mustering anything deeper than the typical stoned college student in his attempt to argue against religion. This is singularly dissapointing as the emperor is often described as a visionary, a man of science and a person who has uncovered many of the mysteries of the universe. I know Graham McNeill is no philosopher, but he should have really either uses some of the many far more profound arguments or not been so ambitious to write thus story in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Let's be careful here folks. I know some of you have recognised the line that shouldn't be crossed here but for the sake of this thread, I will take a moment to point it out: Don't discuss religion. That includes talking about atheism. It will only lead to tempers flaring. So long as we keep talking of The Last Church and the merits/pitfalls of the story, then fair enough. Be warned that if that line is crossed, this thread will be locked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Magnus did more then cause a few problems on Earth, he ripped apart a warp portal causing the Emperor to be stuck on the Golden Throne forever or lose Terra and Mars to a new Warp zone. Combined with that it was Magnus who was to warm the throne, he doomed the Emperor, the Imperium and mankind to stagnation and eventual collapse. Horus' little rebellion was just icing on the cake to the damage that Magnus did. The fact that Magnus was loyal, if stupid, just makes it really tragic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3302995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 ^QFT for the smartest primarch Magnus is rather dumb.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3303046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Magnus did a lot of mistakes but how was he supposed to know about Emperor's precious project, his fragile wards and battle of Emperor vs Chaos in the warp? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3303048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 @Legatus The only problem I have with your analysis is that everything we've seen in the Heresy series doesn't really suggest a galaxy that has one foot in the Eye of Terror, one foot on a banana Peel..indeed, many of the pockets of humanity (interex, Diasporex, the Technocracy, Shrike, the "Imperium") seemed to be doing just fine before the Titans and Space Marines dropped out of the sky on them. Compare that to every time we are shown the Night Haunted on Nostromo, where it's hammered in that things were awful, Curze made them better. @Chaplain Lest we forget, Alpharius also pointed out that chasing a Utopian goal was counter productive to species survival. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3303051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrified Templar Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Sorry about my rant, talking too much about history is sort of a problem of mine. @ Billuriye Yes fiction is based on real life and all of those events you mentioned did take place in the 40k universe, a fine point you raised. @ Wade Garret Eh don't mind me, I debate about that period of history a lot. Holy phanstacorians I forgot about the Thunder Warriors! Yeah I agree he did do things that were a bit over the top, ok a lot over the top. Although at that time humanity needed to be united to survive, could it have been done in a better way? Possibly but to be fair he did try to do things the peaceful way first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3303104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Really, a lot of the debate flying back and forth about the Emperor is echoed in arguments about.. just about any expansionist nation one cares to name. Take Rome. Yes, the Space Romana brought stability, municipal improvements, advances in just about any area of human endeavour one cares to name..shame about Vercingtorex, Spartacus, and Jesus, but hey, aqueducts! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3303127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 @Legatus The only problem I have with your analysis is that everything we've seen in the Heresy series doesn't really suggest a galaxy that has one foot in the Eye of Terror, one foot on a banana Peel..indeed, many of the pockets of humanity (interex, Diasporex, the Technocracy, Shrike, the "Imperium") seemed to be doing just fine before the Titans and Space Marines dropped out of the sky on them. That's how it was still described in the Collected Visions book: "As human civilisation fragmented, hundreds of alien races seized their chance to plunder unprotected worlds and enslave their populations. Planets were sacked and their peoples slaughtered. Those that survived the alien onslaught rapidly reverted to barbarism. Worse still was the threat from the warp. The existence of warp creatures and the dangers they posed to the human mind were not fully understood. On worlds with large concentrations of psykers these creatures were able to breach the barrier between the immaterium and true space. Entire worlds fell prey to the indescribable horrors that burst forth. Some worlds were devoured whole and have been permanently lost in the warp. Humanity was on the brink of annihilation." (The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 10) The 6th Edition Codex Dark Angels merely explains that "most human populations were enthralled by xenos or lived in the ruins of their once-great civilisations" (6E C:DA, p. 6). It is clearly a failing of the Horus Heresy series to omitt such vital details about the purpose of the Great Crusade. Perhaps because the authors are more concerned with setting up cool scenes and make the traitor Primarchs more sympathetic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/#findComment-3303131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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