The problem of the Emperor?

[Billuriye]

Thing is, Emps put a deadline and a restriction on Mort's efforts to crack the citadel. "Do it all by yourself, and do it right now."

 

So any solution that takes time and aid from others (sitting at the bottom of the mountain and trying to starve the warlord out, building great big trebuchets and dragging them up the mountain, tunneling through the mountain, or as mentioned, further refinements to the enviroment suit) are now off the table, Mortarion's choices are to bend the knee to Emps or try to John Mclane his way to the into the castle.

 

He didn't get to take his best shot, he got pushed into trying to solo an Evil Overlord on short notice. I don't imagine Corax would have done much better if the Emperor challenged him to defeat the remaining Tech Guilds of Deliverance all by his lonesome, no prep time, just head down to the planet and start cracking skulls. Oddly, that's exactly what Angron wanted and he got denied.

 

He was already planning to mount an attack on his adoptive father. Only his reluctance due to their early father son bond caused him to wait. There is no indication of any deadline either. I'm not saying Mortarion didn't feel pressurized but, it is overstated. Mortarion had simply the rotten luck of having a superior opponent who had the advantage of home turf against him unlike his brothers who breezed through mortal dregs.

[Octavulg]

First one: Stating opinion as fact. Nice.

*Blink blink*

 

The technology to create such things has existed since the nineteenth century. It's not opinion that, eventually, Mortarion could create such a thing. "Eventually" might be a really long time. But it's possible.

 

Plus, he's got the battle armor of a bunch of dead overlords to cannibalize, if he's so inclined, and their fortresses to raid for knowledge.

Second one: How do you need to be exposed to perform sorcery? It would work better in isolation, if anything.

Where does it say Mortarion's father was a sorcerer? It mentions "arcane secrets", but that doesn't necessarily refer to sorcery (the various necromantic practices could certainly be called arcane, but there's no indication that they're sorcerous).

Third one: No one had forgotten him. Nothing at all states or suggests this.

Oh?

The Primarch's mood darkened; this day of deliverance was one he had worked for all his life, and he found himself altogether unhappy to see it co-opted by the arrival of some newcomer of uncertain agenda.

Emphasis added.

 

I do not, of course, mean forgotten in the wholly literal sense. I'm sure they still remembered his name.

Fourth one: "promises of salvation" is not what Mortarion had already done. Even once the warlords were killed, they're still stuck on a planet who's very air can kill. We know that the Emperor's Imperium (as opposed to the 40k one) has huge terraformation capabilities.

First:

The elders spoke of the new arrival's promise to unite the people of Barbarus within a great expanding brotherhood of humanity which could help them be rid of their persecution from above.

Emphasis added.

 

Second: was Barbarus so terraformed?

 

Third: please point to an indication that that's what the Emperor was talking about?

Fifth one: Again, being able to potentially raise an army of the undead is not neutralized. We also have nothing stating that the warlord was alone in his mansion in the gases where Mortarion couldn't walk. So he probably had his army still with him, given there was no previous account of Mortarion fighting that specific warlord's forces.

First, we have no evidence that they can raise an army without having the bodies at least nearby. The various descriptions of the armies all seem to require people (dead or alive). That would require reaching them (since they're not described as sorcerously animated - rather the opposite).

 

Second, we have the bit where the Warlord approached to kill Mortarion personally - he brought no one with him. That seems a foolish move, even with a dying Mortarion.

Sixth one: He said nothing about their enemies. He simply promised Salvation. The people weren't gossiping how great he was, they were simply talking about the fact that a random golden stranger showed up and promised salvation. Nothing states that even the elders loved the Emperor.

Wrong on the enemies/salvation point, as demonstrated above.

Mortarion and his brethren arrived to find the village alive unlike he had ever known it. On everyone's lips was word of the arrival of a stranger, a great benefactor who brought promise of salvation.

Now that's a neutral term if I ever saw one.

 

Regarding the Emperor one, that would seem to mean that the people of Barbarus are the only bunch who don't love the Emperor on sight. Clearly a bunch of filthy heretics. I'm glad they're dead.

Seventh One: See point six.

Continually wrong.

 

"We Love the Emperor Day" is what is known as hyperbole.

Eighth one: Mortarion issues no challenge to the Emperor. Also, how does the Emperor "rub his son's noses in it"? I seem to recall him forfeiting his competition with Vulkan in order to save the Primarch's life. In fact, most of his challenges against his sons were issued by them, and the Emperor accepted. The fact that he won them all doesn't mean he rubs it in.

He challenges the Emperor in the "refuses to submit and do what he's told" sense, not in a more literal sense (I admit, that could have been clearer). Think Angron and Magnus, not Russ and Vulkan. That said, Mortarion, Russ and Vulkan are all challenged by the Emperor, not the other way around.

Ninth One: As I just pointed out, the point you refer to as "this" is invalid. On top of that, betraying someone and murdering untold billions of innocents, turning against your brothers and father is, in your opinion, a reasonable response to losing? Okay now.

See the several other times where I point to the explicit textual reference saying that I'm right.

 

As to the other points: murdering billions of innocents? No. Not OK. But then, I'm saying resentment is OK, not that murdering billions is OK. It's almost like there's a distinction between those two.

 

Turning against your brothers? They may be by blood, but they don't seem to have been so in any other way in Mortarion's case. Hell, he followed the only two he knew well.

 

Turning against your father? The Emperor treated the Primarchs like tools, not sons. Their fathers died on their home worlds.

 

As I said. Resentment is clearly founded and understandable.

[Wade Garrett]

.Regarding the Emperor one, that would seem to mean that the people of Barbarus are the only bunch who don't love the Emperor on sight. Clearly a bunch of filthy heretics. I'm glad they're dead..

This made me laugh more than it should have.

 

Anyhoo, I can only speak for myself, but when I argue that Mortarion, Curze (anyone else wish the bits where those two were best buddies weren't retconned away?) or any of the Traitors bar Horus and Fulgrim (who neeeds characterization when you have EVIL SWORDS) were justified, I mean that it made sense for them to have a grudge against the Emperor, not that I think, for example Lorgar's desecrations on Calth (A bloody long way from."You could never order acts of cruelty with a smile") were absolutely the logical and correct course of action.

 

But I understand why they jumped off that particular bridge, even rhough it landed in a bad place. (Well, you'll only think it's a bad place till you get a big snootful of Primordial Annilihator. Then you'll either think it's awesome or abandon thought in favor of BLOOD! DRUGS! PLAGUES!)

[Legionator]

So the Emperor saved his son from the certain death and he is guilty? Traitor logic, makes sense.

[Octavulg]

After being told he didn't want to be saved? Yeah.

 

The Emperor shows up, tells Angron to come with him.

 

Angron says, "No, I want to die with my friends."

 

Emperor kidnaps Angron in the middle of the night, and Angron's friends die thinking Angron abandoned them.

 

Yeah. The Emperor's such a great guy.

[Vesper]

The emperor doesn't seem to be fond of free will.

[Legatus]

Interestingly enough, in both the cases of Angron and Mortarion the Emperor chose to put the well being of the civilisation of their worlds over the feelings of his sons. Angron's homeworld was stable society, even if they had slavery. Instead of bringing down the hammer on that world and starting a war, he simply extracted Angron from it. In the case of Barbarus, that world was under the dominion of Chaos forces, and instead of humoring Mortarion and letting him have another attempt that could take who knows how long and may not even be successful, he rids the world of the Chaos oppression.

[Octavulg]

Again, where's the evidence that it was Chaos, exactly?

[Legionator]

- Hey daddy, I wanna die. Please respect my decision.

- OK son, I'm cool with that. Free will is so dear to me.

 

It doesn't seem like an ideal father-son relationship to me.

[Vesper]

- Hey daddy, I wanna die. Please respect my decision.

- OK son, I'm cool with that. Free will is so dear to me.

 

It doesn't seem like an ideal father-son relationship to me.

'Hey Lorgar. I broke your toys. YOU GONNA CRY YOU LITTLE BABY ? Now kneel to your brother. I love him much more than you, he's not disappointing when you are nothing but a failure.'

If you consider it an ideal father-son relationship, I'm a bit sad thinking about your childhood. ;)

 

EDIT : It's so funny when you think about Magnus ripping the webway appart.

'Noooooo Magnus you son of a retard ! You broke my toooooooyyyyy !!!!11'

[Legatus]

Again, where's the evidence that it was Chaos, exactly?

 

Ok, maybe it was just plague themed xenos.

[Legionator]

- Hey daddy, I wanna die. Please respect my decision.

- OK son, I'm cool with that. Free will is so dear to me.

It doesn't seem like an ideal father-son relationship to me.

'Hey Lorgar. I broke your toys. YOU GONNA CRY YOU LITTLE BABY ? Now kneel to your brother. I love him much more than you, he's not disappointing when you are nothing but a failure.'

If you consider it an ideal father-son relationship, I'm a bit sad thinking about your childhood.

EDIT : It's so funny when you think about Magnus ripping the webway appart.

'Noooooo Magnus you son of a retard ! You broke my toooooooyyyyy !!!!11'

-Hey daddy, you are so awesome that you must be a god. I wanna give up my duty as a leader of humanity and worship you all the day, erect temples in your name.

-That is so cute but don't forsake your duty son, besides I'm not a god.

-Oh, you are denying your divinity, you are absolutely a god.

- Son I'm not a god.

- Of course you are a god.

-Son listen...

-NANANANANA

-God damn, why don't you be a well-behaved son like your brother Roboutte?

-Daddy doesn't love me, I will be a Satanist and burn the galaxy.

The Emperor should have slapped Lorgar a little bit and then locked him in a room in Imperial Palace for a few months. I'm all in favor of traditional parenting.

Traitor primarchs (esp. Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion and Horus) were meaninglessly childish.

BTW, a device that can save humanity from Chaos forever is hardly a toy.

[Octavulg]

Legionator

- Hey daddy, I wanna die. Please respect my decision.

 

- OK son, I'm cool with that. Free will is so dear to me.

 

 

 

It doesn't seem like an ideal father-son relationship to me.

-No, son. I need you to come with me and general my armies and help me make more superhuman cannon fodder. I'll never really spend any time with you, mind. And no, you can't bring your friends. I have no use for a bunch of superhuman gladiators in my war against the entire galaxy.

 

The one is weird, but the other is weird AND stupid.

 

 

BTW, a device that can save humanity from Chaos forever is hardly a toy.

It couldn't, though. Daemons can access the webway.

 

* * *

 

Legatus

 

And just one, at that. Color me unimpressed with the Emperor.

[Vesper]

The emperor could've sorted it out without humiliating Lorgar. He did because he's awful and/or retarded.

I like the fact that you imply the fact that primarchs have a duty. It goes against the will of some of them, against their beliefs/values. But the emperor couldn't be bothered, all he wanted was nice generals that carry their "duties" blindly. He had his agenda, and everything else was nothing to him.

They all feel like tools.

[Legionator]

The emperor could've sorted it out without humiliating Lorgar. He did because he's awful and/or retarded.

I like the fact that you imply the fact that primarchs have a duty. It goes against the will of some of them, against their beliefs/values. But the emperor couldn't be bothered, all he wanted was nice generals that carry their "duties" blindly. He had his agenda, and everything else was nothing to him.

They all feel like tools.

 

It is grimdark mate; even in its most brilliant time, it is still grimdark with tyrants, xenos, daemons awaiting to dominate or destroy the humanity. The Emperor fought for the humanity, he still endures for the humanity. A primarch is a demi-Emperor, he can't go like that "Oh father, I will quit Westpoint and play guitar in the streets". A primarch has a duty, a space marine has a duty, a worker in a foundry world has a duty. Otherwise, you can kiss the humanity goodbye.

 

And I think he was pretty soft with Lorgar. His biggest weak spot was this, he loved his sons to the end.

[Daemon2027]

Wow interesting discussion.

 

My main problem with the emperor is he lacks any sort of charisma. Great leaders make mistakes, it's how they deal with them. He has an issue with his son, he doesn't just talk to them, show them why he thinks there wrong, he embarrasses them, or forces them to brake a vow. Then he doesn't apologise, he lets others sort it out. Really he can't be surprised when resentment builds. It makes him feel left human, and if he is not human, and he is not a god, then how is he different from the aliens he is freeing humans from.

[Vesper]

Highly doubt that.

Yes, it's grimdark, and the emperor being a total douche, the primarchs facing contradictions and stuff is normal.

The loving emperor (makes me think of Stalin actually) had his agenda. He intended his 'sons', the freaks he created, to do as he wanted them to do.

Maybe it's because I have a soft spot for freedom, can't say...

[Wade Garrett]

The webway didn't stop Slaanesh from scarfing Eldar souls like Pringles...it would have made galatic travel less likely to end with "Then a warp storm broke the Gellar field and daemons beat, killed, and ate all hands (not necessarily in that order)" but it wasn't the final solution to the Chaos problem.

[Legatus]

Legatus

 

 

And just one, at that. Color me unimpressed with the Emperor.

 

The people of Barbarus seemed pretty impressed.

 

 

The emperor could've sorted it out without humiliating Lorgar.

 

And originally, he had. But then the Horus Heresy series was conceived. And the Emperor was too nice. And the traitor Primarchs needed to be more relatable. So stuff was "rearranged".

 

 

 

 I like the fact that you imply the fact that primarchs have a duty. It goes against the will of some of them, against their beliefs/values. But the emperor couldn't be bothered, all he wanted was nice generals that carry their "duties" blindly.

 

Well, he had created them for a purpose.

[Vesper]

 

 

 I like the fact that you imply the fact that primarchs have a duty. It goes against the will of some of them, against their beliefs/values. But the emperor couldn't be bothered, all he wanted was nice generals that carry their "duties" blindly.

 

Well, he had created them for a purpose.

Indeed. Yet, there's two things I could tolerate : a true dictatorship that doesn't hide behind its finger, explaining to his sons that they don't have a choice, that their free will is nothing more than an annoyance to him that he would've erased by the time of their creation if he had the means, or a more comprehensive view, alloying free will and different views among the primarchs.

The emperor is in the spot where he uses an illusion of free will, without telling the truth that is only shown by his acts (the kidnapping of Angron and the punishment of Lorgar). The emperor is the Apex Douchebag of the Galaxy.

[GenEngineer]

It depends since the topic is where the Emperor went wrong. And he did let the Lectitio Divinatus flourish before saying it was wrong and one of the worlds conquered was a human world with thinking machines that worshiped the Emperor.........

 

Source: Tales of Heresy anthology, Scions of the Storm short story, Anthoney Reynolds author.

I think the issue here is one of necessity. Yes, The Emperor allowed Mars to worship him as re Omnisiah even during his push for the Imperial Truth. But I get the feeling that he too desperately needed what Mars had to risk alienating it or destroying it in war, so causing worship was acceptable. Besides, Mechanicum shows that there was a push on Mars to remove the worship without the Emperor's interference; maybe he was gambling on that.

 

As for the Word Bearers, I feel it was the same sense of urgency. At the start of the Crusade, it was too important to have them working to risk by chastising them. But once the Crusade started to near its end and most of the Primarchs were found, the cost of leaving it untouched outweighed the benefit.

 

Finally, as for being heavy handed with other cultures (Xenos or Human), we've already seen wit the fall of the Eldar that one race or subset of a race becoming entirely consumed by Chaos can screw over the rest of the Galaxy. And if all of mankind is to become psychic, such an incursion would have been able to wipe out humanity.

 

In short, the Emperor is a cruel, harsh person, because that is the only way to perfectly ensure humanities survival. Any and all not involved present some degree of risk, and I don't think he was willing to give Tzeentch and co. even that small chance.

[Kol Saresk]

Hehe, got an email notification about a notification on BnC. Must say, I am very surprised that this topic is still going. Did the meltas run out of juice or something?

 

GenEngineer, good point on bringing up Mars, although I wasn't talking about it in that post as the Lectitio Divinatus was the religion started by Lorgar that was allowed to self-perpetuate up to and past Monarchia and the world of thinking machines was a planet that the Word Bearers brought to Compliance that was filled with thinking machines(A.I. Constructs with physical manifestations). The Word Bearers at first attacked indiscriminately because A.I. was one of the big No-nos of Human technological progression. Eventually, one of the Word Bearers found a copy of the Lectitio Divinatus within the city. Of course, at this point in time, the Word Bearers had already started walking down their road to corruption so the human population of the planet was still wiped out along with their thinking machines. What I was pointing out is that even if it was before the Word Bearers had fallen, the civilization would have still been wiped out because of their thinking machines, even though they were in all intents and purposes, willing to follow the Emperor. Before they even met them. If any Legion other than the Pre-Monarchia Word Bearers had come to that planet, it would have been scoured of life once the Lectitio Divinatus had been found, even though the inhabitants worshipped the Emperor. If the Pre-Monarchia Word Bearers had come, well the planet most likely would have seen a rather large technological regression. But instead, the post-Monarchia XVII found them and the rest is history written down in Scions of the Storm.

 

So the point was that unless a human culture was at a certain technological level with no "techno-heresies" that permeated their society and they welcomed the Imperium with welcome arms with having any kind of religion or belief system that strayed even the slightest from the Imperial Truth, chances are it would not be met with friendship as there is only one such encounter I can think of and that is found in Horus Rising.