Billuriye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think part of the point is the words religious overtones are meant to contradict what the Emperor was (supposedly) setting out to do. Sindermanns (terrible) speech about the Imperial Truth in Horus Rising is pretty suggestive of that. But I think you're getting too wrapped up with the etymology of the word. What it originally meant is different to what it means now and that is almost certainly different again from what it might mean in M31. Language evolves. The OED definition: 1 (Crusade) each of a series of medieval military expeditions made by Europeans to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries 2 a vigorous campaign for political, social, or religious change Seems on the right lines to me...? Indeed. Language would be pretty boring if we were stuck with the original meaning of words. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Never said otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think some of the problems with the Emperor is that we're seeing him through an external lens. While he makes a lot of questionable decisions, such as humiliating his weakest son (Lorgar) in front of one of his strongest (Guilliman), as well as not just putting down Angron like a rabid dog when it was clear that he had been irrevocably damaged by his time as a slave (or, alternatively, forcibly removing the Nails), remember that a lot of the time, we're seeing the Emprah from the eyes of the Primarchs, and not from his own perspective. So any information that gets contradicted by the HH novels just goes to highlight just how much information/history/knowledge has beenlost/destroyed/re-written over 10,000 years. This isn't correct. The contradicting information in the Horus Heresy novels comes from the fact that the Black Library is completely re-telling the story, without regard for the existing canon. Make no mistake, we're not "learning new things". We're just being told a new version of the Horus Heresy that is replacing the old one. The Black Library already told the Horus Heresy once, in fairly exhaustive detail. The novels even contradict that version, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Only if you think a day WITHOUT being robbed, beat, and murdered is in no way superior to the alternative. What Curze offered was only marginally better and doomed to fail without anything else then the fear of retribution. Curze thought of humans as animals who can be cowed indefinetly by the threat of retribution. Not entirely true. Animals could be tamed and domesticated. Curze knew that humans could not. That's why he was constantly punishing people for even the smallest of infractions. And while his policies were being carried out, Nostramo was considered to be the epitome of a hive world, fully an one hundred percent efficient in operating as a society. But when he left and the Administratum became lax with the punishments, Nostramo started creeping further and further until it was even worse than when the Night Haunter first came to it. @E. J. G.: Not all of the Primarchs are as quick on the trigger Finger as you think. Look at Horus when he wanted to do peace talks with the Interex. Sanguinius when he wanted to find another way to fight the Nephilim than killing their human slaves. Magnus as he wanted to learn everything about every culture he could. I imagine Gulliman has managed to peacefully bring more than a few worlds into compliance. The rest of the Primarchs were warriors. They grew up fighting wars, not learning about them. And they fough those wars on a very brutal level. Their instincts are to fight and if the opportunity presents itself, they take it. It's not what they were made to do, it's what they grew up to do. Agree and disagree Curze brought stability which allowed the current society to operate at peak effiency. Curze however did nothing to improve on the current society he brought no techinical or cultural advancements even Russ and Jaghatai the '''savage'' primarchs did more to really improve their society then Curze did. He did not codify a new set of laws so that he did not have to personally uphold the law. He brought stability not law and order which is why he was ulitmately destined to fail. Sevatars comment about Guilliman and others doing better was completly correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.G.J. Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 The First Heretic does say that "Entire worlds had fallen to Lorgar's oratory without a single shot being fired." Fair point. However, that was before the Emperor's....... "disciplinary." After that, they basically went to a "bow or die" policy and started conqueri- "bringing worlds to compliance" at one of the fastest rates among the Legion. According to The First Heretic and the IA article. Also, IIRC in A Thousand Sons there is a part where the TS have joined the Word Bearers (post chastisement) in bringing a world to compliance and were dismayed at the latter's heavy-handed (genocidal) approach. But my previous point is really about how all of this reflects on the image of the Emperor. Remember that in the earlier versions of the fluff the Emperor was depicted as some kind of father figure for mankind. Somebody who reunited human worlds against the threat of xenos and who reconquered worlds that had fallen to chaos. Before the Horus Heresy Series references to how the Emperor actually operationalized this are rather vague. He "conquered terra from warlords" he made a pact with the mechanicum on Mars, he lead the Great Crusade etc etc. Within the earlier framework his image is a fairly good and decent one. One where a person might actually believe that he is "the Father of Mankind". As it stands today, now that we have been given a lot more detail about how this all supposedly went down, that image has been shattered. Case in point, the chastisement of Lorgar. The Emperor is upset with Lorgar's slow pace and his institution of Big E Worship. What does he do? Does he slap Lorgar around? Reason with him? Break his favourite crozius? Nope! He annihilates Monarchia and every living human soul therein. Cyrene survived, but not thanks to Big E. It is this image of the Emperor that I cannot reconcile with his depiction in previous versions of the fluff. 40K was always desperate and dark, but the Emperor, at least to me, represented that lost hope. Something good....worth fighting for. Now he's just another shade of gray....somebody who offered one bloody and heavy-handed solution to humanity's problems, somebody who will kill millions of people just to teach his son a lesson. With the depiction of the earlier version of the Emperor, one could believe that his way might actually have been the best solution and that he lamented any prerequisite loss of life. IMHO that belief is harder and harder sustain the more we learn about him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Which earlier version was this? Because the Emperor's always been willing to see people wiped out to serve his goals. Note how he deals with Angron's army, even in the IA fluff - he lets them get slaughtered. Or how he deals with Magnus. No. The Emperor's a git or a moron. Always has been. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.G.J. Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Which earlier version was this? Because the Emperor's always been willing to see people wiped out to serve his goals. Note how he deals with Angron's army, even in the IA fluff - he lets them get slaughtered. Or how he deals with Magnus. No. The Emperor's a git or a moron. Always has been. The versions of the fluff that I am basing this on is Rogue Trader and 2nd edition including WD. Granted I was in my teens back then so it might have been easier to see the Emperor in a favourable light. And yes, the Emperor has always been depicted as willing to see people wiped out to serve his goals....HOWEVER, those goals were usually described as for the good of mankind. He did not wipe out millions just to teach his son a lesson. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3311904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Which earlier version was this? Because the Emperor's always been willing to see people wiped out to serve his goals. Note how he deals with Angron's army, even in the IA fluff - he lets them get slaughtered. Or how he deals with Magnus. No. The Emperor's a git or a moron. Always has been. "For thirty eight thousand years the New Man wandered over the Earth and through human history. At first he merely observed the world about him, but soon he began to help where he could, using his ancient wisdom to spread efficient government, crop management, animal husbandry, technology, and peace. He always used his influence carefully, adopting the guise of a normal man, and without revealing his true nature. Over the millennia the Emperor watched the human race develop. He travelled the entire globe, watching and helping, sometimes adopting the persona of a great leader or advisor. In times of trouble he became a crusader, a religious leader or messiah, at other times he remained a back-stage contributor to events, an advisor to kings, a court magician, a pioneering scientist. Many of the guises he adopted were humble, others became monumental figures of world history or religion. At times of crisis he would be there, steering the human race along a narrow path of survival that he alone could see. As the human race prospered the warp became increasingly disturbed so that its flow could no longer sustain the planet as it once had. The New Man was aware of how the extreme sides of the human character were feeding the Chaos Powers. Despite his best efforts to promote peace and harmony, the instinctive values of martial honour, ambition, defiance, and self-satisfaction could never be eradicated. Some of the New Man's plans were less than successful: seeds of wisdom often failed to flourish or grew into uncontrollable monstrosities leading to persecution and war." (Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 175/176) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 The problem of the Emperor was that some of his sons didn't have any brain cells and thought like "I need to worship something, so why I don't I worship some overgrown demons?", "I am the most trusted son of the Emperor and I have fought alongside him for two hundred years, so why don't I forsake him and believe some freak in a crazy moon?", "I am so honorable but the Emperor didn't allow me to die with my comrades, so why don't I trick and virus bomb my own sons?". Seriously, the Emperor should have got ridden of these weaklings in the beginning but he had a father's heart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Russ and the Khan "improved" their societies? Societies like Fenris, which 10,000 years after Russ is still a dark ages hellhole where raiding warbands butcher each other for any reason or no reason at all? That society? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Case in point, the chastisement of Lorgar. The Emperor is upset with Lorgar's slow pace and his institution of Big E Worship. What does he do? Does he slap Lorgar around? Reason with him? Break his favourite crozius? Nope! He annihilates Monarchia and every living human soul therein. Cyrene survived, but not thanks to Big E. It is this image of the Emperor that I cannot reconcile with his depiction in previous versions of the fluff. 40K was always desperate and dark, but the Emperor, at least to me, represented that lost hope. Something good....worth fighting for. Now he's just another shade of gray....somebody who offered one bloody and heavy-handed solution to humanity's problems, somebody who will kill millions of people just to teach his son a lesson. With the depiction of the earlier version of the Emperor, one could believe that his way might actually have been the best solution and that he lamented any prerequisite loss of life. IMHO that belief is harder and harder sustain the more we learn about him. Regarding the underlined. The Ultras evacuated the city BEFORE the bombardment began. Some citizens were even removed by force. The only reason Cyrene survived was because she was outside the city with the other refugees. She is blinded by the overflash of the first strike from orbit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Counterpoint: The XIII gunned quite a few citizens down during the evacuation, even going so far as to level buildings with Land Raiders when the inhabitants did not immediately abandon their homes because some ponce with horseshoes on his shoulders commanded it of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Counterpoint: The XIII gunned quite a few citizens down during the evacuation, even going so far as to level buildings with Land Raiders when the inhabitants did not immediately abandon their homes because some ponce with horseshoes on his shoulders commanded it of them. Yeah as I said some were removed by force. Not to mention the behavior of the citizens of Monarchia illustrates another problem. Those people were apparently ignorant of the existance of other legions. They appear to be loyal to the Word Bearers and not the Imperium as a whole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Legatus, page 243 of Slaves to Darkness has the Emperor rounding up the Chaos forces in Davin and Istvaan and sending them into the Eye of Terror on Hulks. Rather than, say, killing them. He does this, apparently, because the Imperium is too weak to wipe them out. Which, of course, is how they manage to round these Chaotic evildoers up and get them onto ships. Sounds pretty dumb to me, in a universe where you can wipe out a planetary population in minutes. Like Horus did a few pages earlier. Page 135 of Rogue Trader describes his reign as "harsh" (and Rogue Trader's Emperor is a lot more capable than modern 40K's). Page 138 describes how he eats the souls of hundreds of psychics every day (at a conservative estimate, this would mean he's eaten 730 million people). It also describes it as "simple to think of him as an evil corruption of nature." Sometimes the simple answer is the correct one. And even if you think what he does is necessary, that doesn't mean he's not a git. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Demus Ragnok, on 22 Feb 2013 - 18:49, said: Wade Garrett, on 22 Feb 2013 - 17:41, said: Wade Garrett, on 22 Feb 2013 - 17:41, said: Counterpoint: The XIII gunned quite a few citizens down during the evacuation, even going so far as to level buildings with Land Raiders when the inhabitants did not immediately abandon their homes because some ponce with horseshoes on his shoulders commanded it of them. Yeah as I said some were removed by force. Not to mention the behavior of the citizens of Monarchia illustrates another problem. Those people were apparently ignorant of the existance of other legions. They appear to be loyal to the Word Bearers and not the Imperium as a whole. The Imperium did not bring technology everywhere they went. Some of the less-technologically advanced worlds would probably only know of one Legion and it would probably be the Legion that brought them to "compliance." But there are "good" and "bad" perceptions to everything in 40k. The Word Bearers ultimately do what they do because they believe that for Humanity to survive it must become one with the Immaterium which means serving the Chaos Gods, who are not the nicest of Patrons. As Argel Tal once said, "I didn't ask for this to be the underlying Truth to existence." @godking: I never said he brought anything other than stability. Nostramo was already something of a factory world when Curze landed there. But everyone was focused on killing, beating and robbing each other. So when he came along and society returned to order, they became more productive. Then the Imperium came along and brought technology and the Administratum and classified it as a hive world and according to the IA articles, it was the ideal image of a hiveworld as it was perfectly efficient right up until Nostramo saw the Night Haunter as nothing but a distant bad dream. @E.G.J: That's the thing, Lorgar was never truly rebuked for creating the Imperial Cult. The only thing ever said about that was when the Emperor said he wasn't a god. In both the IA articles and The First Heretic, the Emperor rebuked Lorgar for being too slow in conquering worlds because he spent so much time doing what the Administratum was for, with the added bonus of bringing religion to a "secular" society. The Emperor has always had his good and bad, but that comes form the fact that he was always gray, both white and black and yet neither at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Page 135 of Rogue Trader describes his reign as "harsh" (and Rogue Trader's Emperor is a lot more capable than modern 40K's). Page 138 describes how he eats the souls of hundreds of psychics every day (at a conservative estimate, this would mean he's eaten 730 million people). It also describes it as "simple to think of him as an evil corruption of nature." Sometimes the simple answer is the correct one. Did you just parse those pages for certain buzzwords? "At last, over ten thousand years ago he began his struggle, for he knew that humanity was on the verge of a revolution, a genetic revolution that would create a new psychically aware race, a race of which he was the first and most powerful. Without his guidance he realised the emerging race of psychics would fall prey to the dangers he had already faced, the perils of entities that fed upon psychic energy, or who used that energy for their own horrific purposes. So, the Emperor emerged from a long hiding, creating the Age of the Imperium over ten millennia ago in a series of wars now remembered by none save their victor. His rule has been a long and harsh one, for there is much at stake - the life of humanity itself. The strain of his conctant vigilance has taken a heavy toll upon the man that was once human, for now his body can no longer support life, and his shattered carcass remains intact only because it is held by a spirit itself sustained by the strangest of machinery - ancient artifacts constructed by the Emperor in an elder age. It is ironic that this creature, whose will extends to over a million worlds, is now unable to leave the life-giving machinery of his imperial throne, unable to so much as lift a shrivelled finger or twitch a shrunken eye. The living carcass of the Emperor is immobile, held fast within the bio-machine that sustains his spirit. The mass of this machine is contained within the imperial palace; room upon room of twisted technology, pulsing with a life and will of its own - living, breathing, reproducing and writhing like a giant, mindless organism. Held within this perversion of science lies the Emperor himself, or rather what now remains of his carcass, the seat of his omnipotent will. The Emperor understands the dangers that face his race, and has assumed the role which seems pre-ordained for him, that of its guardian. Perhaps he is a freak, or perhaps nature created him as the protector of her metamorphosis. Either way, the Emperor is now the custodian of his race, and he alone bears the knowledge of its fate. To this end the Emperor maintains strict control over the development of humanity and contributes directly to its survival by utilising his powers. He plays a vital role in space travel within the Imperium. In order to steer a craft over great distances, a human navigator uses a mental homing signal, a sort of psychic beacon to guide him through warp space. To provide a mental signal throughout human controlled space would not be possible to any ordinary psyker. However, the Emperor is no ordinary psyker - his powers go beyond those of mortals. Even so, the strain of transmitting a continuous signal would prove far too strenuous, and he merely concentrates his powers on directing a signal created by others. These are the imperial servants known as the Adeptus Astronomica, psykers whose bodies and souls are leeched of energy. This energy is projected by the mind of the Emperor in the form of the psychic beacon known as the Astronomican. The sheer quantity of mental energy is vast, and only the mind of the Emperor is sufficient to handle so much raw power. The fate of the Adeptus Astronomica is a sad one, for their efforts soon reduce them to husts of bone and dry flesh. Many die every day. They are not the only psykers who are asked to make the ultimate sacrifice, for the Emperor cannot eat as men eat, or drink fluids or breathe air. His life has passed beyond a point where such things can sustain him. For the Emperor the only viable substance is human life-force - soul - and he has a great ans insatiable appetite. Nor will just any human suffice for this purpose, for the soul-donor must be a very special person in their own right, someone with psychic powers. The Inquisition scours the Imperium in a tireless search for emergent psykers, individuals too vulnerable to be left alone. Some of these men and women will be recruited into the Adeptus Terra (especially the Adeptus Astronomica and Adeptus Astra Telepathica) but many more will serve their Emperor in a more gruesome way. Given up to the weird machinery that surrounds the Master of Mankind, their souls will be gradually leeched from their bodies to feed the Emperor's spirit. Hundreds must die in this way every day if the Emperor, the Imperium and humanity are to survive. It would be simple to think of the Emperor as an evil corruption of nature. Yet, as the Adeptus Terra teach, the sorrow and slaughter that feeds his divine corpse is a trifling price to pay for the survival of the race. Without the Emperor there would be little space travel and no protection in a hostile universe. Left uncontrolled, the emerging race of psychic humans would become the unwitting vehicle of humanity's destruction. For there are many foul aliens which not only feed upon the life-force of other races, but which use that life-force as a means of opening portals in warp space, infiltrating populated planets via the poorly protected minds of inexperienced psykers. The Master of Mankind knows that to protect his race he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face. If thousands much endure pain and death for his sake, how considerable must be the agony of a creature whose body is all but destroyed, whose mind is encased inside a rotting shell and whose every thought is enslaved to the task of serving his race." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Actually it still says he is harsh. As said earlier he is harsh "for the sake of Mankind." But what is "For the sake of mankind" all depends which side of the fence you are on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Yeah... I guess if you are on the "mankind must survive" side of the fence, then he's pretty cool. But if you are on the "let mankind go extinct" side of the fence, he is kind of a bother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 According to the Word Bearers, they want Mankind to survive by helping it to embrace the warp while making sure that only the strong survive against the xenos. So both sides are basically "Help Humanity" through the use of "extreme measures." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 And one of those parties knows what's going on and what must be done, while thr other is hopelessly deluded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Actually I'd say both are deluded. After all, the one who "knew what was going on" is responsible for creating the other party. Quite literally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 And then eldrich evil space gods messed with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 "Let humanity go extinct"? Kharnath, Tchar, Slau Neth, and Narag have as much interest in wiping out the human race as modern day Terrans do in exterminating chickens, pigs and cows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 You know length of quotes doesn't have anything to do with being right, don't you, Legatus? Good job ignoring the bit where the Emperor moronically sends Chaos their slaves to keep them company in the Eye of Terror. In any case, the "context" you seem to feel you're adding doesn't make the things he does particularly less horrible. They may make them more justifiable, but he's still eaten the souls of seven hundred million people (at minimum. It could go as high as three billion). They're gone. Forever. Because the Emperor's survival is more important - according to the Emperor. Doing horrible things in the service of a higher cause doesn't automatically make those things noble and righteous. Killing a child so hundreds will live is still killing a child, and you don't get to claim to be a good person just because it was necessary. The Adeptus Terra teaches that all the horrible things the Emperor does are worth it. We don't have to agree. And, more to the point, that doesn't stop them being horrible. So yes, the Emperor is a git (and, as you did not address, a moron). Thank you for contrarily opposing a throwaway statement with fluff you've said yourself is effectively superseded by second edition. It's been fun. Also, as others have pointed out, Chaos doesn't want to wipe mankind out, just enslaves us to a lifetime of horror and worship. I wonder if there's any other organization in 40K that does that. And Mankind managed without the Emperor telling us all exactly what to do for thirty thousand years (you think he unobtrusively organized millions of worlds from Terra?). The Emperor thinks the Emperor is necessary. But I'm not sure you can entirely trust someone who eats tens of thosands of souls a year. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 The only thing Curze offered was the threat of retribution. He did not actually offered anything better. Something that Sevatar pointed out when he took a dump on Curze's beliefs True, but what can you offer to a planet that doesn't respond to anything else? That was Curze's argument against Dorn. "We need to be nice to them, show them kindness, then they will learn to trust and love us." VS "We need to keep them terrified of what will happen if they rebel, it's the only way to keep true control. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile." It's two completely different schools of thought from two completely different people with completely different backgrounds. Let's not forget that Dorn had a much more "stable" upbringing than Curze, did. The interesting thing, though, is they are not mutually exclusive. Clearly the penal code does not prevent everyone from committing crimes, and yet how many people do you think might think twice about breaking the law simply out of fear of punishment? At the same time, though, [most] governments try to at least appear to be benevolent and nice and give you freedoms to do things, but there's always some hidden secret police force that operates in the shadows and quite possibly even outside the law. That was more Curze's point. The Emperor's teachings of enlightenment and galactic peace, with him as the wise and just ruler were all lies. He will do whatever it takes to maintain control, even assassinating his own son for daring to speak the truth. So who's right? I think both sides have valid points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/5/#findComment-3312608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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