Billuriye Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 "Let humanity go extinct"? Kharnath, Tchar, Slau Neth, and Narag have as much interest in wiping out the human race as modern day Terrans do in exterminating chickens, pigs and cows. Slaanesh killed nearly all Eldar yet is alive and kicking just fine. Chaos relationship with mortals is bit more complicated than food chain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 In any case, the "context" you seem to feel you're adding doesn't make the things he does particularly less horrible. They may make them more justifiable, but he's still eaten the souls of seven hundred million people (at minimum. It could go as high as three billion). They're gone. Forever. Because the Emperor's survival is more important - according to the Emperor. The fluff does not say that the Emperor thought that he knew how mankind would progress, it tells us that he knew it. Ergo, yes, that bit of fluff/context does put hings into perspective: If the Emperor had not guided the history of mankind --> mankind would be extinct. If the Emperor had not assumed control when he did --> mankind would be extinct. If the Emperor would not consume the souls of hundreds of psykers every day --> mankind would be exinct. Then you can look at his motive and whether there would be alternative ways to achieve the ends. The ends being the survival of the species. His motive was to protect mankind. Does he have an alternative way to do it, other than to be sustained by the souls of hundreds of psykers each day? I don't think he does. So, it's not a selfish motive, and the perhaps cruel means are not by free choice. And another point that gets lost among all of the nay saying is that the Emperor has suffered for ten thousand years only to protect mankind. What is the suffering of an individual psyker who is sacrificed or even a human lifetime of servitude compared to ten millennia of suffering with no end in sight? Get some perspective, please. So yes, the Emperor is a git (and, as you did not address, a moron). Why would I need to adress that bit? You acknowledged that the fluff said that he had no other option. Thank you for contrarily opposing a throwaway statement with fluff you've said yourself is effectively superseded by second edition. It's been fun. The reason I initially posted was that you yourself had questioned in what earlier version of the fluff the Emperor was presented as a more benevolent figure, and had claimed that he had been presented as a "git" in every bit of fluff ever. So I provided that "earlier version" where he is presented as mankinds saviour. you're welcome. Also, as others have pointed out, Chaos doesn't want to wipe mankind out, just enslaves us to a lifetime of horror and worship. Chaos is not the only threat to a newly emerging psychically active race. The old lore describes "warp creatures that use the minds of psykers to create portals", which probably refers to the Enslavers. There are other entities which simply drain the life-force of psykers. These creatures are interested purely in feeding, and do not really have a global agenda to keep at least some of the psychically active humans alive. Neither does Khorne, I believe. Even if he had the entire galaxy under his rule, he would not stop the slaughter. And Mankind managed without the Emperor telling us all exactly what to do for thirty thousand years (you think he unobtrusively organized millions of worlds from Terra?). Actually, he guided mankind from behind the curtains for the past fourty thousand years. He even guided the scientific advances that led to the discovery of warp drive technology, as he "knew that while humanity remained bound within its own solar system the entire race remained vulnerable to exctinction" (The Lost and the Damned, p. 176). And then warp travell became increasingly difficult, and the human worlds got separated during the Age of Strife. Countless worlds are conquered by aliens, or corrupted by the forces of Chaos. Terra descends into barbarism, where warbands roam the landscape. At that point, the Emperor steps in and for the first time takes full command. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 If the Emperor had not guided the history of mankind --> mankind would be extinct. If the Emperor had not assumed control when he did --> mankind would be extinct. If the Emperor would not consume the souls of hundreds of psykers every day --> mankind would be exinct. Assumptions. Humanity never got to the point that it could go extinct. The Emperor was a created being whose purpose was to unite Humanity, not save it from extinction. He spent the last forty thousand years doing what he saw was fit to achieve that goal. A goal in which he ultimately failed when he first created the Primarchs and then almost half of them to the point that they would have no problem betraying him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Assumptions. Fluff. Or had been at some point, at least. But not yet retconned, I would say. "At times of crisis he would be there, steering the human race along a narrow path of survival that he alone could see." "As the human race prospered the warp became increasingly disturbed so that its flow could no longer sustain the planet as it once had. The New Man was aware of how the extreme sides of the human character were feeding the Chaos Powers." "At last, over ten thousand years ago he began his struggle, for he knew that humanity was on the verge of a revolution, a genetic revolution that would create a new psychically aware race, a race of which he was the first and most powerful. Without his guidance he realised the emerging race of psychics would fall prey to the dangers he had already faced, the perils of entities that fed upon psychic energy, or who used that energy for their own horrific purposes. So, the Emperor emerged from a long hiding, creating the Age of the Imperium over ten millennia ago in a series of wars now remembered by none save their victor." "The Emperor understands the dangers that face his race, and has assumed the role which seems pre-ordained for him, that of its guardian. Perhaps he is a freak, or perhaps nature created him as the protector of her metamorphosis. Either way, the Emperor is now the custodian of his race, and he alone bears the knowledge of its fate." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 And another point that gets lost among all of the nay saying is that the Emperor has suffered for ten thousand years only to protect mankind. What is the suffering of an individual psyker who is sacrificed or even a human lifetime of servitude compared to ten millennia of suffering with no end in sight? Get some perspective, please.How about you do? The Emperor has eaten hundreds of millions of souls because only he can protect humanity and guide it appropriately. Except he keeps screwing up. The Rogue Trader era Horus Heresy features mistakes by the Emperor. The fluff you quote from Lost and the Damned has him trying to change humanity and failing repeatedly. The Emperor is fallible. The fact that the Emperor says he's the only option to save humanity doesn't mean he's right. Among other things, the existence of the Eldar and many other species would strongly suggest he isn't. Why would I need to adress that bit? You acknowledged that the fluff said that he had no other option.So you're telling me that the Imperium had the manpower to load the hostile forces of Chaos onto transports but not the manpower to drop some virus bombs? No. That's the stupidest thing I've read in 40K fluff, and I've read Draigo's backstory. Hell, get them on the ships and throw them into the sun. Nope. The Emperor is a moron there, and no amount of arbitrary declarations that he had no other option can save it.The reason I initially posted was that you yourself had questioned in what earlier version of the fluff the Emperor was presented as a more benevolent figure, and had claimed that he had been presented as a "git" in every bit of fluff ever. So I provided that "earlier version" where he is presented as mankinds saviour. you're welcome.And I pointed out the portrayals from that same age that make it clear his nature as a savior is double-edged at best. That's the thing, Legatus. In 40K you can be a git and a moron and still be the best hope for the salvation of mankind. It's not that the Emperor isn't those things. It's that his decisions and portrayal have long made it clear that he's either not very bright or is kind of a dick. Nothing you've posted comes even vaguely close to disproving that. I'm not saying the Emperor is evil. I'm not saying what the Emperor is doing is unnecessary. I'm not saying the Emperor has other practical options. I'm saying he's either dumb or a jerk. And, frankly, if you don't think eating the souls of hundreds of millions is a jerk thing to do, I don't think I want to talk to you any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Or that the Emperor is willing to cut whatever corners he thinks need to be cut to achieve his own goal because none of the background has ever been written from the viewpoints of the Imperials. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 So, if the Emperor's been guiding mankind from behind the scenes for forty thousand years, he must shoulder some of the blame for the total breakdowns of civilization that made the Great Crusade a necessity. Not to mention that saying the Emperor "knew" his way was the only way to save humanity is problematic when viewed in conjunction with the fact that the Emperor "knew" Horus was his truest and most loyal son, worthy of being the second most powerful being in the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 The Emperor isn't infallible (far from it) and he's not very nice or very empathetic to individuals. The Emperor cares very deeply about the human species and its survival in a galaxy that is decidedly hostile to human life. In that, he is willing to take risks and sacrifice millions of individual humans so that billions may live. The Emperor is so old and so powerful he's basically divorced from humanity in a way that makes a 'normal' Space Marine's lack of empathy for humans seem laughable. Think about it: even the oldest person is just a blink of an eye in the big E's time frame, so to the Emperor, an individual human is nothing. Now, if the Emperor wasn't around, would Mankind go extinct? Not immediately, no. But, things would go back to the way they were before the crusades: thousands of disparate worlds gradually falling to the predations of Chaos or polluting themselves with xenos artifice; little individual worlds which wouldn't last two hours in the face of an Ork WAAAGH! or the Great Devourer. Eventually, humanity would go extinct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3312911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 The Emperor has eaten hundreds of millions of souls because only he can protect humanity and guide it appropriately. Except he keeps screwing up. The Rogue Trader era Horus Heresy features mistakes by the Emperor. The fluff you quote from Lost and the Damned has him trying to change humanity and failing repeatedly. The Emperor is fallible. That the Emperor is not infallible and that the Emperor is essential for the survival of mankind are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I don't think any of the fluff I quoted that talks at length about how crucial the Emperor is for humanity claims that the Emperor would somehow be infallible. The fact that the Emperor says he's the only option to save humanity doesn't mean he's right. I am not sure whether there is fluff stating that "the Emperor" is saying that he is the only hope. I only quoted "the fluff" which established that that is the case. So you're telling me that the Imperium had the manpower to load the hostile forces of Chaos onto transports but not the manpower to drop some virus bombs? No. That's the stupidest thing I've read in 40K fluff, and I've read Draigo's backstory. No, I am not telling you that. The Rogue Trader fluff is telling you that. You are perfectly at liberty to dislike that particular bit of fluff (or other bits). In fact, I don't think that part makes much sense either. That has nothing to do with the fact that the Rogue Trader lore, which described the Emperor in much greater detail than any later source would, refers repeatedly to how his sole agenda was to ensure the survival of mankind, how he was aware of the dangers they would be facing, and how he alone was in the position to do something about it. Could the Eldar potentially have stepped in in lieu of the Emperor and have guided and protected mankind through the change to a more psychically active race? Possibly. But what we know about the Eldar does not exactly give me confidence that the Eldar would have done that. That's the thing, Legatus. In 40K you can be a git and a moron and still be the best hope for the salvation of mankind. It's not that the Emperor isn't those things. It's that his decisions and portrayal have long made it clear that he's either not very bright or is kind of a dick. Nothing you've posted comes even vaguely close to disproving that. I'm not saying the Emperor is evil. I'm not saying what the Emperor is doing is unnecessary. I'm not saying the Emperor has other practical options. I'm saying he's either dumb or a jerk. And, frankly, if you don't think eating the souls of hundreds of millions is a jerk thing to do, I don't think I want to talk to you any more. He would only be a moron if there were other, better ways to deal with a situation. He would only be a jerk if his motives were selfish and if there would be nicer ways to deal with a situation. If there are no such options, you can neither call him a moron nor a jerk. The lore stated that there was no other choice than to ship the traitor cults into the eye of terror, to banish them instead of defeating them. Making mistakes, or failing or being crossed when you are dealing with ancient space gods is also not exactly a sign of being a moron. The lore never states that the Emperor is infallible, omnipotent, or omniscient. It only states that he has a lot of ancient wisdom about the world and the warp, that he can see or is aware of certain developments, like how humanity is evolving, and what dangers lurk in the warp. Wade Garret: So, if the Emperor's been guiding mankind from behind the scenes for forty thousand years, he must shoulder some of the blame for the total breakdowns of civilization that made the Great Crusade a necessity. The Lost and the Damned book does adress that at two separate points. The first one I had quoted in post #108. The other is mentioned in the section about the Age of Strife: "The birth pangs of Slaanesh made it all the more neccessary that humanity progress as quickly as possible. Warp travel became increasingly difficult as the horror-torn dreams of Slaanesh became more intense. Even the other Powers of Chaos were weakened as the whole fabric of the warp writhed and twisted with tempestuous warp storms. As a result, space travel became almost impossible, and many worlds were isolated for long periods of time. Human society broke apart and Earth was cut off from the rest of the galaxy altogether. This was the Age of Strife in human history - an age of anarchy and madness which even the New Man was powerless to prevent. The Age of Strife was only ended with the birth of Slaanesh, an event which was to bring new problems and fresh dangers." (Realms of Chaos- The Lost and the Damned, p. 177) Not to mention that saying the Emperor "knew" his way was the only way to save humanity is problematic when viewed in conjunction with the fact that the Emperor "knew" Horus was his truest and most loyal son Does the fluff say that he "knew" that Horus could be trusted, though? I am not sure. I would have to check the sources. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snejk Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 "You must be joking, this is like me saying Know No Fear was the story of the kindly priest Kor Phereon bravely defending the innocent people of Calth from the treacherous surprise attacks of the bloodthirsty Roboute Guilliman and his cyan hued hordes." That is actually a twist that i'd like to read. But in my opinion the big E is just a dick. Just like any other genocidal, mad scientist, mutant dick with the intention of conquering the galaxy and burn everyone that isn't willing to submit to the will of the conqueror. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Just like any other dick who endures ten thousand years of suffering to protect the human species. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Or just like any human who, in his last moments fears death like crazy (even more so if that means falling into the hands of the Chaos gods). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Then it is by sheer coincidence that the Emperor's continued survival also enables mankind to persist. If the Emperor is so terrible, why don't the humans just stop feeding him hundreds of psykers each day? I guess they all share an interest in a continuation of the species after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Well, if we go by Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver it is possible for Navigators to guide ships through the Warp without the Astronomicon, and Chaos Sorcerers can do it even easier. So there are alternative methods to burning a thousand souls a day. (Admittedly, they have their own problems, as navigating without the Great Beacon seems riskier and induces mutation even faster, while widespread Chaos sorcery probably won't cause a down turn in the overall numbers of souls flayed into nonexistence.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Is'nt the other, maybe bigger, problem of the Emperor's death is the opening of the webway gate he was working on which, iirc, would turn Terra into another Eye of Terror? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Is'nt the other, maybe bigger, problem of the Emperor's death is the opening of the webway gate he was working on which, iirc, would turn Terra into another Eye of Terror? Yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 No, I am not telling you that. The Rogue Trader fluff is telling you that. You are perfectly at liberty to dislike that particular bit of fluff (or other bits). In fact, I don't think that part makes much sense either.And bolter rounds are filled with gas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3313229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Well, if we go by Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver it is possible for Navigators to guide ships through the Warp without the Astronomicon, and Chaos Sorcerers can do it even easier. So there are alternative methods to burning a thousand souls a day. (Admittedly, they have their own problems, as navigating without the Great Beacon seems riskier and induces mutation even faster, while widespread Chaos sorcery probably won't cause a down turn in the overall numbers of souls flayed into nonexistence.) I may be mistaken in this, but isn't the Astronomicon just, in effect, a "North Star" for warp navigation? You can navigate anywhere you damn well please, but the Astronomicon shows you where Terra is, so it gives you a reference point. IE: You could get lost in a storm and crapped out in a system, then figure out where you were (provided it was a mapped system) without the Astronomicon, I think. Also, of course Sorcerers can navigate it easier, it's Warpstuff steering thru Warpstuff. I would imagine being a Sorcerer in the warp is like having Slaanesh in your Garmin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3314018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 It's a combination of North Star and a lighthouse. No matter where you are in the Warp, you can see where Terra is. From there, you can extrapolate where you are and where you need to go. It made Warp travel safer in a major way. This isn't to say that it was a necessity, just that all of those problems that go along with Warp travel would be enhanced manyfold should that beacon fail. Unless you were an ally of the Warp, in which case you're likely to have a safer trip. Or not, but the voyage is exactly what you're into anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3316355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleax Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hi, coming back after a while, I have my opinion to share here I started reading the Horus Hersey about a year late, then after the first 9 books I stopped reading again as I'd caught up to the release schedule. However, last week I decided I'd let enough build up again and went out and brought Tales of Hersey. Despite having a custom loyal chapter, I've never really like the Emperor. But after reading The Last Church, Scions of the Storm & After Desh'ea it got me questioning if the Emperor really is anything special. Going of the Last Church and how the Imperium turned out he sees over confident, arrogant and unwilling to listen to reason. It's his way or the highway. Considering he is supposed to be able to foresee, he keeps making mistake after mistake and seemingly overreacts to those who don't see it exactly as he does. For example, taking Angron away from his brothers and sisters on his home world, he 'punished' Lorgar for unintentionally undermining the Imperial Truth, he attacks Magnus and the Thousand Sons for trying to warn him of what was to come (even if this did unintentionally ruin some of the defences of the palace) and probably one of the most important was leaving the front line of the Great Cruised without much elimination. All of this does not strike me as being someone who is all powerful knowing. He seems to be making it up as he goes along, providing that everyone agrees with him unquestioningly. Rather than being anything special, I think he is simply an ordinary psyker who is powerful enough to take advantage of the fact on a massive scale. Smart enough to create a super-genetic army, knows how to fight and is incredibly power hungry. Other than that nothing really special. Admittedly, I'm only ten books in the the Horus Hersey series, but he doesn't come across as being that great and makes far too many mistakes for supposedly being this almighty figure. So, what are your thoughts on the matter. Is the Emperor some mighty being, simply a ordinary psyker who has the power to take advantage of that fact, or something else? AC Still this saying....lol. The Horus Heresy as a whole may be understood as the Emperor's mistake, I will concede that this might be understood that way. After all, humans fought humans, and this was not the plan of the Emperor. And this is all that can be said. Yeah, the Emperor was not ENOUGH powerful to know that Horus will be possessed by a demon on a mysterious planet. Bad, bad Emperor. :) He should have known that Horus will be stupid enough to allow this in the first place. Who is guilty of carelessness here? Hint : Horus is - or MAYBIE it is pure misfortune, well, well served by the Chaos Gods. I am quoting this above, and I keep saying "still this saying....lol" for 'this' sentence (again): he attacks Magnus and the Thousand Sons for trying to warn him of what was to come Not at all. He attacks Magnus because he knows now that Magnus has reached the knowledge that is forbidden for the mere mortals, and he is now not only a slave to darkness, but a primarch who doesn't obey.... Everything different is pure misinformation, by a bit of the Chaos players base??, as a note I will tell you when it begun, it begun back when the 3rd edition Chaos Codex was not the best and the players wanted a new codex, and they got a new codex, but what is special, with this a new interpretation of the fluff to better support Chaos, fully supported by several newly fresh designers of that time....after all, several Primarchs did disobey... but... this one was the fault of the Emperor - ah, gotcha. Then, as for the BL books. The books depict the Emperor facing the worst treachery of the history of mankind, and men are fighting men, once again in the history of Mankind. Not the plan of the Emperor, he was not ENOUGH powerful to prevent that, and the authors just make him a man, who do mistakes, because he is not an all-seeing God. But.....the best man ever, better than anything mankind has ever known. Better and better than Horus, to name a very known and respected human being. No he is not of the Charismatic breed. Horus just is. But being charismatic is nothing compared to what the Emperor was or still is. The most advanced sentient in the Universe. Now the last books might depict this. I dunno if the game designers of now are still Chaos-centric or not. It all depends of this. Although there are still the senior designers to put the things right on...well on what the game was created. In the darkness where there is only war, The Emperor is a dark angel (like his 1st legion or not) and the Hero. NB : yup, I'm a loyalist. Or better, I follow the plot of W40K, which is Imperium-centric, and thus Emperor-centric. NB2: Nah, Chaos players have my respect for being the guys who play the tragic heroes (and they can defend their position all they want)... Horus WAS a good guy. He was simply possessed by mistake. Now I think I will go back to where I was, far away from the B&C boards. And likely far away from the end justifies the means (ie from in the grim darkness of the far future) Cheers, -a former Dark Angel player. NB3: when you are charismatic, you are damn awful at logistic -or do I come back to the game? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? -Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3318936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Horus wasn't possessed. At least not on Davin. He was poisoned with warp whatever and in a near death experiance chose to turn from the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3318950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Magnus did warn the Emperor. But a I said on other threads. Magnus threw accusations at not just a son who appeared to be loyal, but The Son, He Who is Favored Above all Others, Horus. Think about the time context, Davin had just happened. Horus just got up from his deathbed. Meanwhile, Magnus comes bursting into Terra, destroys the wardens sealing the webway and then throws what seem to be baseless accusations of Horus being a Traitor around. Meanwhile, Magnus has broken the Edict of Nikea. Magnus has provided the avenue of assault for a daemonic incursion. Magnus has destroyed the only way to truly stop the daemonic incursion. Who look more like the Traitor? But yes, the Emperor has made many mistakes. An imperfect creator cannot make a perfect creation for at best, the creation will have a many flaws as the creator. Humanity created the Emperor. Mistakes are bound to happen. Not letting Mortarion free his own world while trapping the Primarch into forced servitude. Letting Angron's brothers an sisters die while saving the Red Angel and forcing him into servitude as well. The Iron Warriors. The Edict of Nikea. The Thunder Warriors who soaked Terra in wars of genocide just so the homeworld of Humanity would be "unified" in a single vision, his vision. Perpetrating wars of genocide across the galaxy on Human Worlds that refused his will. The utter destruction, or in some cases the attempted destruction, of alien races that would have helped the Human race while only accepting those that could be used as slaves. Telling his children about the "xenos in the warp" but telling none of them of the true dangers of the warp. The Horus Heresy isn't the Emperor's Mistake. It is the Culmination, the Consquence, of the Emperor's actions. The Heresy is the Emperor reaping what he had sown. He birthed the Imperium in fire and blood. It is only fighting that it lives and dies by the same note. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3319081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The reason the Emperor continues to get fed a bajillion pyskers deemed to weak to be of use is because with the continued beacon of the Emperor the existing power-structures that were formed can continue to hold power and sway over mankind. It states so in both the Imperialis and RT stuff (High Lords could wake him but why would they?!). The government that the people of the Imperium have suffered under for 10k years is a construct of the Primarch and men who came after the Emperor's entombment. This has always been my dislike of Guilliman in the past fluff; he is directly to blame for setting up the systems under which the humans of 40k suffer under. As more information comes out about the Heresy and the times before, the system Big Blue Schoolboy setup in 40k seem to be an adaptation of systems that were already in place and allowed or setup by the Emperor many many years prior to the Heresy. I used to believe that the 30k period was a "Golden Age" of englightenment with high technology, high standards and high governance that would be a polar opposite to the worlds of 40k when I read the old fluff and the myths and legend blurbs about the Pre-Heresy Era. Now I find they have as many if not more propagandists/iterators, more bureacracy, were just as violent and failed to even have true Unity on Earth while the Emperor sent his Legions to crush the Galaxy underfoot. Maybe Vesper is right and fear of true death without reincarnation fuels the man; it is stated the shamans of old were failing to be able to do this and created the "Anathame" to deal with the problem directly. It is an interesting thought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3320204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The reason the Emperor continues to get fed a bajillion pyskers deemed to weak to be of use is because with the continued beacon of the Emperor the existing power-structures that were formed can continue to hold power and sway over mankind. It states so in both the Imperialis and RT stuff (High Lords could wake him but why would they?!). Where exactly does it say that? Because in the Rogue Trader Rulebook, the Slaves to Darkness, and the Codex Imperialis it says something completely different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3320289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Well the core reasons of the intent on why they keep the Big E on life support in Imperialis and the RT fluff are quite a bit different. Imperialis states the Emperor is necessary to keep the Imperium at large from splintering into isolated pocket empires which would not be a united realm and the RT stuff the High Lords are doing it to consolidate power for themselves. The reasoning is quite different but the basis for the need for the Emperor's continued existence is more or less the same; keep the larger Imperium intact instead of having disparate areas disconnected from food, armies and material and keep power centralized on Terra. Been a while since I touched my StD book; it is fragile and stays in an oversized comic jacket Side note: Does anyone know if they do reprints of that book? I cannot underestimate the intentions of the Emperor of Mankind in species survival but is a merger of the realms of the Immaterium and Material universe in how the Emperor ran things really so different from the 4-Powers? Instead of one guiding principal there are many to fight over and fight for; the differences between the two are razor thin at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/6/#findComment-3320300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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