Legatus Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The Rogue Trader rulebook and the Codex Imperialis don't quite put it like that. But then I have only read the description of the Emperor himself. That describes him as crucial for mankinds survival. Perhaps that political conspiracy is described in one of the other sections that I didn't check. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3320332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 There's stuff in Dark Heresy about the High Lords shooting down plans to revive the Emperor, although it all fairness it must be said those plans involve things like "Inject his body with plague zombie virus!' so I call that good judgment on the part of the Adeptus Terra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3320486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 IIRC, the Inquisitor game form GW had a whole slew of Inquisitorial factions that had different ideas on how to resurrect the Emperor from finding a pure saint for him to possess to grow a new, perfect body, to building a mechanical body to bringing the entire Human race to an awareness of psychic level that he can manifest in physical form. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3320505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Â I do love the short bit of text in the Inq rulebook, with the various proto-Inquisitors discussing the Emperors ascension. Some nice conspiracies abound anyway... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3322725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 for me the problem with the emperor is how he treat his primarch, sometimes he acts like a father of a good figure(like russ for example) other times he just act like the emperor who except his son obey every single order without doubt, he order de destrution of monarchia thinking that lorgar will be just fine with it, same with angron, or just goes silent working is his super project of the webway, which i ask ¿why kept that secreat? did re really think his son are morons or something?  like yopu see, the emperor sometime is a father, other times is the emperor or mankind, and is clear that the two something clash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3322860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Acted like a good father to Russ? Â Getting into a chugging contest with your son and then punching him in the face aren't exactly what I'd call responsible parenting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3322877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I think that contest was probably based on the Edda, where Thor and companions are challenged to several different contests by Udgard-Loki. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3322901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Acted like a good father to Russ?  Getting into a chugging contest with your son and then punching him in the face aren't exactly what I'd call responsible parenting.  yes, but the emperor move acord russ code and way to think, he could just ignore the contest and dragg russ with him but insted he willing participe and beat russ in a fight(yes he use his power fist but is not the point) and you can see that russ have no harsh felling against the emperor for that  so that is my point, he respect the warrior code of russ,lion,guillman and dorn, but with angron he just take him by force Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3322926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I think that contest was probably based on the Edda, where Thor and companions are challenged to several different contests by Udgard-Loki. I know, it was a (bad?) attempt at humor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3322997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleax Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Lol... Horus wasn't possessed. At least not on Davin. He was poisoned with warp whatever and in a near death experiance chose to turn from the Emperor. This is new stuff? What I remember back in the days, in the 90's, is that Horus was possessed. There was a story around, yup including the battle of Horus against the Emperor (Horus worn twin lightning claws back then) and I did read the story. Thus it was not him who turned against the Emperor, but the demon within. I am sorry but I have not the knowledge of 40K fans of the B&C out there, so they changed that? Or did I misread the thing back then?^^ Legatus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3329535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I  For example, taking Angron away from his brothers and sisters on his home world, he 'punished' Lorgar for unintentionally undermining the Imperial Truth, he attacks Magnus and the Thousand Sons for trying to warn him of what was to come (even if this did unintentionally ruin some of the defences of the palace) and probably one of the most important was leaving the front line of the Great Cruised without much elimination. Every decision the Emperor made during the heresy was perfectly reasonable, IMHO.  Humanity could not afford to lose such a priceless asset as Angron, and his wanting to indulge in the bloodshed and die in combat without achieving anything was, in the context of a primarch, extremely selfish.  His entire existence was planned with the objective of furthering the cause of humanity's manifest destiny, a man designed to be a perfect general and leader.  Sometimes duty>will.  As far as Lorgar goes...The Emperor knew the only way to truly win a lasting victory against Chaos would be to starve the gods of their followers, to drain faith from the galaxy and replace it with secular humanism.  So when the man in charge of 100,000 super soldiers with the power to conquer entire star systems with ease, who was born to a chaos-worshipping world, starts preaching faith to all those he conquers? It is time for intervention.  Lorgar is lucky the Emperor didn't exterminate his legion like the cancer it was.  The Emperor did not attack Magnus.  Ever.  He sent the Space Wolves to escort them back to Terra to answer for their crimes, and the space wolves were told by HORUS to attack the thousand sons.   Honestly, not everything the Emperor did ended up panning out well, but every decision he made was the best one, given his position at the time.  The galaxy has always been grimdark!  As a last note; Chaos had to lie to/strong-arm several of the legions in order to have them turn on the Emperor, and for good reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3329729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Lol... Horus wasn't possessed. At least not on Davin. He was poisoned with warp whatever and in a near death experiance chose to turn from the Emperor. This is new stuff? What I remember back in the days, in the 90's, is that Horus was possessed. There was a story around, yup including the battle of Horus against the Emperor (Horus worn twin lightning claws back then) and I did read the story. Thus it was not him who turned against the Emperor, but the demon within. I am sorry but I have not the knowledge of 40K fans of the B&C out there, so they changed that? Or did I misread the thing back then?^^ Legatus? There is such a story in the 'Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned' book, page 182 and 183. While it does mention a "daemon" at some point, I think that was meant metaphorically, how Horus had changed, not that it was an actual daemon. Later it mentions that the powers of Chaos had possessed Horus, but that too can be understood so that they were able to manipulate and change him. "The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury." "Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has comitted flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there. Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dieing and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be able to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3329747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ah ... in all its horrible grammar glory. Still, it was a pretty cool piece to read if you could get past that aspect of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3329899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013  I  For example, taking Angron away from his brothers and sisters on his home world, he 'punished' Lorgar for unintentionally undermining the Imperial Truth, he attacks Magnus and the Thousand Sons for trying to warn him of what was to come (even if this did unintentionally ruin some of the defences of the palace) and probably one of the most important was leaving the front line of the Great Cruised without much elimination. Every decision the Emperor made during the heresy was perfectly reasonable, IMHO.  Humanity could not afford to lose such a priceless asset as Angron, and his wanting to indulge in the bloodshed and die in combat without achieving anything was, in the context of a primarch, extremely selfish.  His entire existence was planned with the objective of furthering the cause of humanity's manifest destiny, a man designed to be a perfect general and leader.  Sometimes duty>will.  As far as Lorgar goes...The Emperor knew the only way to truly win a lasting victory against Chaos would be to starve the gods of their followers, to drain faith from the galaxy and replace it with secular humanism.  So when the man in charge of 100,000 super soldiers with the power to conquer entire star systems with ease, who was born to a chaos-worshipping world, starts preaching faith to all those he conquers? It is time for intervention.  Lorgar is lucky the Emperor didn't exterminate his legion like the cancer it was.  The Emperor did not attack Magnus.  Ever.  He sent the Space Wolves to escort them back to Terra to answer for their crimes, and the space wolves were told by HORUS to attack the thousand sons.   Honestly, not everything the Emperor did ended up panning out well, but every decision he made was the best one, given his position at the time.  The galaxy has always been grimdark!  As a last note; Chaos had to lie to/strong-arm several of the legions in order to have them turn on the Emperor, and for good reason. On the subject of Angron there where only two viable solutions kill Angron of help him defeat the planets overlords both of which the emperor could easily have done.  Teleporting Angron away was the worst possible decision.  On the subject of Lorgar  The emperor could have stepped in BEFORE Lorgar spent almost a hundred years crusading for the emperor.  Th Emperor not warning Lorgar and his other sons about the dangers of the warp was on of his biggest mistakes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3329908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Well obviously the Emperor made mistakes (most of them he couldn't know, others he just screwed up), but the thing is: Who could have done it better than him?... Â He did all he could to save mankind, did he screwed it up in some points? yes, but maybe if he hadn't stepped in the game, mankind would have been erased by some enemy (xenos, chaos). He was the lesser of two evils. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3329980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Well obviously the Emperor made mistakes (most of them he couldn't know, others he just screwed up), but the thing is: Who could have done it better than him?... Â He did all he could to save mankind, did he screwed it up in some points? yes, but maybe if he hadn't stepped in the game, mankind would have been erased by some enemy (xenos, chaos). He was the lesser of two evils. In all likelihood, humanity would have wiped itself out, given the warlords fighting for control of Terra and all the other planets out of contact with each other... Â @godking, Did the Emperor help the other Primarchs with their pre-discovery problems? No? That's right, he let them solve their own problems (excepting Mortarion; he did that to save his life though). Â If he had let Angron try and fail, he would lose a son and a primarch. Â If he had helped Angron, he would have humiliated him. Â If he had killed Angron...he would lose a son and a primarch. Â Of the four choices, two steal honour from Angron, and two kill him. Â The Emperor could not have made the situation any better. Â With Lorgar, he'd known about it for a while, it is not, however, a decision to be made hastily. Â He seemed to want them to realize their error and redeem themselves. Â They didn't. Â He reminded them that there is a chain of command, and they are below him on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleax Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Lol... Horus wasn't possessed. At least not on Davin. He was poisoned with warp whatever and in a near death experiance chose to turn from the Emperor. This is new stuff? What I remember back in the days, in the 90's, is that Horus was possessed. There was a story around, yup including the battle of Horus against the Emperor (Horus worn twin lightning claws back then) and I did read the story. Thus it was not him who turned against the Emperor, but the demon within. I am sorry but I have not the knowledge of 40K fans of the B&C out there, so they changed that? Or did I misread the thing back then?^^ Legatus? There is such a story in the 'Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned' book, page 182 and 183. While it does mention a "daemon" at some point, I think that was meant metaphorically, how Horus had changed, not that it was an actual daemon. Later it mentions that the powers of Chaos had possessed Horus, but that too can be understood so that they were able to manipulate and change him. "The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury." "Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has comitted flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there. Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dieing and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be able to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die." Hi Legatus, I dunno, but the story I did read in the 90's was about the Emperor fighting Horus, and I dunno if this is the same story that you linked, but I did read indeed that the Emperor was fighting Horus, possessed by a demon. Due to to the warrior lodge he used. Yup, the Emperor hesitated to kill Horus because he was his best friend, but he was now possessed so he was not Horus anymore (and his hesitation costed him to be deadly wounded right before he finally understood that indeed Horus was not Horus anymore, and finally, killed him). Also, in Epic 1st edition, it states that Horus was possessed by a demon, clearly I believe, but I have not the material anymore. Maybie it was in a WD, much like the story I did read. Also please note that Epic 1st edition was THE game of GW in 1990 or so, so it is a reference like everything else. (Dark Angels got Lion'el Jonson as their primarch name (before it was Lynn Elgonsen and another name I don't remember now), and they were made green for the first time, the year before they were still jet-black ;)) Also, now that I did read once again the story you quoted.^^ This story for me, makes Horus possessed ^^ : "There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury." or "The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has comitted" Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Â Well obviously the Emperor made mistakes (most of them he couldn't know, others he just screwed up), but the thing is: Who could have done it better than him?... Â He did all he could to save mankind, did he screwed it up in some points? yes, but maybe if he hadn't stepped in the game, mankind would have been erased by some enemy (xenos, chaos). He was the lesser of two evils. In all likelihood, humanity would have wiped itself out, given the warlords fighting for control of Terra and all the other planets out of contact with each other... Â @godking, Did the Emperor help the other Primarchs with their pre-discovery problems? No? That's right, he let them solve their own problems (excepting Mortarion; he did that to save his life though). Â If he had let Angron try and fail, he would lose a son and a primarch. Â If he had helped Angron, he would have humiliated him. Â If he had killed Angron...he would lose a son and a primarch. Â Of the four choices, two steal honour from Angron, and two kill him. Â The Emperor could not have made the situation any better. Â With Lorgar, he'd known about it for a while, it is not, however, a decision to be made hastily. Â He seemed to want them to realize their error and redeem themselves. Â They didn't. Â He reminded them that there is a chain of command, and they are below him on it. The Emperor could have helped Angron without humiliating him. Â Â The Emperor activelly kept the existence of Chaos gods from Lorgar and his others sons which is one of the main reasons some of his sons fell too Chaos through ignorance of because they rightly felt betrayed by the emperor hiding something that important from him. Â The emperor made some mistakes which cannot be simply explained away as the lesser of two evils. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The Emperor could have helped Angron without humiliating him.   The Emperor activelly kept the existence of Chaos gods from Lorgar and his others sons which is one of the main reasons some of his sons fell too Chaos through ignorance of because they rightly felt betrayed by the emperor hiding something that important from him.  The emperor made some mistakes which cannot be simply explained away as the lesser of two evils. If he had helped Angron, it would have stolen his honour.  Period.   Most of his sons fell to chaos because they were lied to (like Horus) or forced to (like Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim, Alpharius too [forced through circumstance, not literally])...or were just psychos to begin with, who just took this uprising as an excuse to attack the Emperor (Haunter, Angron, Perturabo).  Only Lorgar went to chaos because of the chaos. And why would the Emperor have told them? How would the knowledge that the "warp xenos" were actually daemonic have helped them? It wouldn't have.  Remember, Magnus could have told his brother primarchs, too, if he had wanted to.  But he didn't either, because nothing good could come of it.  Would the primarch possessed of Immense bloodlust knowing there was a god equally obsessed with bloodlust be good for the Imperium? Would the primarch stupid enough to worship warp entities simply because they are powerful have been helping humanity if HE had known?  Plus, the more people who know about and think about the chaos gods, the stronger they are. No, the Emperor's plans to starve the chaos gods would not have benefited from the primarchs knowing about chaos.  The Emperor's only failing was underestimating Lorgar's (and Erebus/Kor Phaeron's) capacity for infectious stupid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 If he had helped Angron, it would have stolen his honour. Period.The Emperor teleporting all the slaves away, or annihilating the enemy armies, or insisting they stand down might have offended Angron's sense of honor. Or it might not. Indeed, the bit where he may have wiped out his home world en route to Terra suggests he'd have been pretty cool with the Emperor wiping out his enemies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Once again, the Chaos Gods aren't fed by "religion". They are the embodiment of every moment of wrath, ecstasy, despair, and ambition felt by sentient beings resonating and given form in the Immaterium. Â Replacing religion with the Imperial Truth would do jack squat to "starve" the Ruinous Powers, without eldar style racial psy-conditioning or necrontyr uploading to robot bodies they can feed on a secular culture just as easily as they can one built on faith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 I don't know that that's true, Wade. I suspect religion feeds them better than generalized psychic uproar. I mean, otherwise the Eldar gods wouldn't have actually been things, would they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Funny thing: Â There wasn't an actual Church of Slaanesh prior to the Fall of the Eldar, but there WAS a metric feth ton of hedonism and decadence, enough to coalesce as a star system eating void leviathan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 That's a pretty exceptional case. The majority of the race was involved in giant orgies of doom ... in general, psychic uproar is less preferred than organized worship, it would seem. Just because a world is filled with malcontents doesn't mean daemons will invade. If that world has a worshipping cult that does some ritual sacrifice associated with their chaotic religion, then the daemons invade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 There wasn't an actual Church of Slaanesh prior to the Fall of the Eldar, but there WAS a metric feth ton of hedonism and decadence, enough to coalesce as a star system eating void leviathan.Is "advanced point-missing" a difficult skill to acquire, or can anyone learn it? I'm pretty sure there wasn't much time for sincere worship of the Eldar gods in between orgies.  As Vaddon said, look at how cults are treated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271126-the-problem-of-the-emperor/page/7/#findComment-3330724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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