The problem of the Emperor?

[Wade Garrett]

Point missing?

You said that organized religion feeds the Chaos Gods, not raw emotion.

 

I pointed out the eldar created Slaanesh with nothing but raw emotion, proving that the Emperor's "Ricka racka firecracker sis boom bah, atheism atheism rah rah rah!" is utterly pointless as a plan to stop Chaos. There's a point being missed but I don't think I'm the one doing it.

[Octavulg]

"I suspect religion feeds them better than generalized psychic uproar." (emphasis added)

 

Explain how "better than" = "not" real quick?

 

Atheism was a moronic plan. Pointing people toward a benevolent set of gods and saying "go worship" might have worked out OK. Might.

[Legatus]

Some sources explain that the Chaos Gods absorb the souls of their followers to gain more strength. The endless wars have created Khorne, but without his own followers, he would not gain in strength (and would also not be able to affect reality by starting even more wars). And with a galactic effort for peace, he might even be weakened, perhaps even combated in some manner.

[Wade Garrett]

My personal opinion is that worshipping one of the Chaos Gods leads to one perpetually marinating in the extremes of whichever emotion your chosen Patron embodies ("I'm a depressed zombie! SO DEPRESSED!") unlike the ordinary emotional range a sentient being experiences, thus strengthening that particular god. Although this doesn't account for how Chaos Undivided works.

 

And according to The First Heretic, the souls of all the dead wind up in the Warp as food for daemons. Although the source on that's Ingethel the (Slaaneshi?) daemon, so...yeah. May not want to swallow that hook, line, and sinker.

[evilmittens]

Here is my 2 cents. Games workshop did not realize the full extent of what they were starting with the Black Library and the fluff. They were caught a step behind at first, and are trying to patch together a whole story of everything while also leaving it open for sandbox writing for writers et al. Their best bet, if the readership continues to grow, is to actually sit down before too long and develop a true cannon for certain important things, like just who is the Emperor and what is he. I think a lot of these arguments in this thread were geat, and fun to read, but in the end I can only agree with everyone as he has been portrayed in everywhich way.

[W0lfie]

Wade, you seem to be missing the idea of the imperial truth, and the point I was trying to make with the word 'starve'. Starve them of followers, of cultists, of worship. WIthout the arcane rituals and sacrifices of the lost and the damned, they have no way into the materium. Additionnally, worship does confer a huge portion of their power. A man who is kinda mad at his friend for not splitting the bill certainly would not contribute even a fraction as much as a practicing heretic offering up blood tributes.

 

The second reason to use the imperial truth is to avoid a failure of faith. It is easier to lose faith and then convert to another religion than to get someone who is confidently atheistic to start worshipping.

 

Another reason is because the Primarchs could not handle the knowledge, and had no need to. Why would the emperor leave them with such information? Look what it did to lorgar!

[Wade Garrett]

The Primarch who fell because the Emperor flat out lied to him about the cosmology of the universe is your best example of why the Emperor was right to lie to the Primarchs about the cosmology of the universe. Interesting.

 

Then we have Magnus, who was, per A Thousand Sons, likewise confident that there were no such things as evil gods lurking in the depths of the warp, so in his ignorance he fiddled with forbidden magicks and got his gene sons into co-dependent relationships with daemon-tutelaries. The Iron Warriors and Perturabo were atheist/nihilist ("I believe in nothing!" Angel Exterminatus) even past Isstvan V. It didn't stop Kroeger and Barban Falk from being tainted by Chaos, to say nothing of Pert's eventual ascension to daemonhood.

 

Then there's the planet in the Black Crusade RPG, where the inhabitants scoff at daemons and magick as they use "advanced arcane sciences" to "manipulate the natural forces" and in fact they're all Tzeenchted out the yin-yang. Just As Planned.

 

I have no idea what older fluff says (that's the wheelhouses of gents like Legatus) but in current 40k ignorance of the Chaos Gods is no defense, anymore than being unaware that there are things like sharks will help you on Amity Island.

[Legatus]

In the older fluff, the Emperor was a-ok with the Imperial Cult. He reprimanded Lorgar for being tardy, not specifically for his devotion.

 

In the real old fluff, the Emperor had, prior to his ascension to the leader of mankind, tried to promote "peace and harmony" to calm down the growing turbulences in the warp, but the human martial pride, ambition, desire for self-satisfaction and self-preservation could not be quelled.

[Wade Garrett]

Thank goodness they changed it. I don't know how I could rationalize cheering for the Chaos Gods over old fluff Emps.

;)

[W0lfie]

The Primarch who fell because the Emperor flat out lied to him about the cosmology of the universe is your best example of why the Emperor was right to lie to the Primarchs about the cosmology of the universe. Interesting.

 

Then we have Magnus, who was, per A Thousand Sons, likewise confident that there were no such things as evil gods lurking in the depths of the warp, so in his ignorance he fiddled with forbidden magicks and got his gene sons into co-dependent relationships with daemon-tutelaries. The Iron Warriors and Perturabo were atheist/nihilist ("I believe in nothing!" Angel Exterminatus) even past Isstvan V. It didn't stop Kroeger and Barban Falk from being tainted by Chaos, to say nothing of Pert's eventual ascension to daemonhood.

 

The Primarch who fell because he, like a child basking in the attention of adults, needed to feel like he was being watched and guided by superior beings (obviously pointing to some serious psychological issues; worshiping higher powers simply because they are power is an overwhelmingly stupid reason to be religious) reached out for anything that he could call divine, even though the chaos gods are far from that.  In fact, calling them "gods" is kind of silly.  We call them that because they are enormously powerful.  That does not make them gods.  Different peoples used to worship the sun as a god, it is certainly pretty powerful.  But I digress.  Yes, the primarch who turned to chaos simply because it was chaos and powerful and new is a good example of why the Emperor was right not to tell them.

 

Magnus knew what those warp entities were.  He just didn't think there could exist an incarnation of pure evil.  He thought they simply were what they were-massive warp entities with massive power.  In reality, they kind of are, when you think about it; it's not Khorne's fault he loves bloodshed.  He was simply created by it.  He is bloodshed.  There's no way he could ever possible stop loving bloodshed.  There is no malign intent, simply an insatiable desire for bloodbloodblood.  Don't get me wrong; he does mean harm to mortals.  Just not harm for the sake of harm.  Even Slaanesh who tortures people's souls for fun doesn't do it because it likes when others are unhappy.  There is no chaos god of melancholy, for that very reason.  Slaanesh does it because the extremeness of the sensation brings it power.  That's the closest I could come to putting that argument into words, anyways.

 

How does the Iron Warriors being fickle and not sticking by their words prove your point?

[Wade Garrett]

Clearly the fact that the Primarch of the rationalist logical Legion fell just like the Primarch of the religious fanatic Legion has no bearing on anything and the Emperor's scheme to fight Chaos with atheism was genius.

 

By the way, how many exponents of the Imperial Truth banished daemons the way Euphrati Keeler of the Lectio Divinitas did?

[yhta]

like i said before, the emperor have a hard time understainding the fact that be the father of their children and the emperor or man (and therefore the boss and lord) can create conflict

 

The saving of angron is one of moments, the takes angron and told who he was and everything, angron stay he his warriors, then the emperor take by force, if he cared angron like a son he would take the planet and avoid the fight or the part of the fight himself, take him by force and doom every slave is just to show how the emperor didn`t save his son, he saved the general of the legion so he can go and take planets like he wanted

 

Lorgar is another case, his ideals stand agianst him, so he could teaching why he wants to use atheism or something else, instead he show the emperor of man face again and destroy the city lorgar created to show that in the end you just go around and do what he, the lord of mankind, wants

 

now looks russ, instead of showing off, take russ and make him go and acept his fate, just show fron nowhere, accept pointless competions and even fight against him just because is the culture of fenrir, so the emperor acept more his vikking/werewolf son more than angron or decied that it was for the best to get alond the game of russ to make him acept his fate

 

Magnus is another example, with him show the nature of chaos,warings about and instead of deny outright the search of magic, put the whole nikea thing and left everyone else to decide, he show that he cared magnus a little more or a least the trust him more to handle the true

 

and now we have horus, here is diferent, he trust and care horus and make him warmaster to handle things until he finish everything he was plaing(of course he didnt trust him enough to tell him what is going to) part of the falling of horus is the fact that he was one day he was with his father united the galaxy for a better tomorrow under the imperial way and the next he is now the guy in carge of the army and his brothers(not a easy thing) because his father left to do something,

 

and the end, even when horus and the tratior take down everything he fight all this time, he can`t finish his son because he thinks like a father and that make him a target form horus

 

as you see, the emperor alternate between the father of his sond(the only ones asiede malcador and the sensei) who can understainding and the emperor of man who can sacrifice inocents to save mankind

 

and about religion:

 

as far i understand, religion in warhammer don make the gods stronger, but i help them to interact with the materium(this world) a follower of a god interact to much time, he become more a more like the god, so a khorne follower can start like some honor warrior but he more time past he come a berzerket because he become more like a avatar from the god blood, the deamon princes are pretty much that, someone who mix his being with a part of their god

 

so is not much that your prayers of faith make them stronger, it make their power go in you and the material world

 

so the atheism is more about that, to avoid people to find the wrong power, the problem with this is that he kept to much information about chaos to everyone who wasn`t him and except everyone being okay about this

 

and about euphari keeler, well she use some ritual to banish the daemon, as far we know the guy who release the daemons it wasn`t a psyker at all

 

this is of course is the problem with magic and godsin fantasy: since magic can do a lot of things, gods in this setting become just very powerfull magicians because magic can breaks the law of nature at will,

 

what this show us? that not matter if you are spiritual,religius or atheist, you will be a jerk and you will die in a painfull and horrible way, is the grimdark game that we all love

[W0lfie]

Clearly the fact that the Primarch of the rationalist logical Legion fell just like the Primarch of the religious fanatic Legion has no bearing on anything and the Emperor's scheme to fight Chaos with atheism was genius.

 

By the way, how many exponents of the Imperial Truth banished daemons the way Euphrati Keeler of the Lectio Divinitas did?

Perturabo did not betray the Emperor because of the Imperial truth.  If you want to go into that, you can PM me, because the tangent we have taken is about Lorgar, the Emperor and the Imperial Truth.

 

I've already listed an entire list of reasons why the Imperial Truth was possibly the best handled decision by ANYONE in the 31st millenium, but I think I'll drop another one, quite relevant to Lorgar, to further evidence why it was a good move.

 

If you abolish all religion, that includes chaotic ones, yes?  If the Emperor left all religions intact, then (on top of having huge division among the imperium as thousands of religions collide), that would leave them ALL intact.  What if the Emperor had left the religion of Colchis intact? We know they worshipped chaos there, before Lorgar even arrived.  The Emperor obviously didn't realize, or he probably would have obliterated the Word Bearers and their Primarch, and possibly Colchis itself.  That could have started the heresy even earlier, if Lorgar was corrupted off the bat.  The primarchs wouldn't have known the Emperor as well at that point too, so it probably would have been easier to sway them.  The Emperor would have HAD to have let chaotic religions exist in his Empire; if he selectively obliterated religions while leaving others standing...that would have looked much, much worse and created even more strife.  And chaos cults being perfectly legal? That would be silly.

 

The bottom line is, the Emperor's plan, His Imperial Truth, scared the chaos gods.

 

As for Daemons being banished by Atheists...you're kidding right? They are banished by atheists all the time.  Every daemons that has ever been killed by a space marine, custodian or grey knight has been killed by an individual who does not believe in the Emperor's divinity.  Were you expecting them to be like Keeler? Because I have never seen an atheist call on a god to strike a daemon down.  Regardless, disrupting a daemon's physical body with a chainaxe will banish it as surely as euphrati, much more reliably, and completely atheistically.

[Wade Garrett]

Grey Knights don't believe in the Emperor's divinity?

 

"Faith is a shield, a badge of the righteous, and is required for the very survival of the Emperor's soldiers. They were words Alaric had read thousands of times, but each time it gave him comfort as it did now. He was not alone. If the Emperor was not watching, then faith would mean nothing-but Alaric's soul was intact, and so faith must be a shield against corruption, and so the Emperor must have His eyes upon the Grey Knights."

 

Grey Knights, Ben Coulter, page 91

 

This is atheism? Ooooooookay.

 

But I applaud the crawfishing. I ask to be provided with someone banishing a daemon with their belief in the Imperial Truth the way Keeler did with nothing but her faith in the Emperor's divinity, you start talking about Custodes and Marines. So...faith = being a transhuman supersoldier. BUT THE IMPERIAL TRUTH IS STILL BETTER. For some reason.

[ForTheLion]

Its very simple really....the emperor had vision, he could forsee what belief in deities and religions led too...death and blood.

 

He tried to lead us into an Atheistic future where science and reason governed humanity and not pathetic superstition. He tried to make us into something we werent ready to become. Humans will always look to something higher than them, and if they dont find it, they create it, just as they created the emperor into a god. Merely because humans were scared and they created something false and untrue to hold their fears at bay

[Wade Garrett]

And there goes the thread.

 

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE, CIVIL DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT AARON DEMBSKI BOWDEN'S GREY KNIGHTS VS. BEN COULTER'S!

[Brother Tyler]

=][=

Just a reminder - real world politics, religion, etc. are not a subject of discussion here at the B&C.

 

This is your only warning. Any further mentions of these issues will result in the topic being closed.

 

=][=

[W0lfie]

Grey Knights don't believe in the Emperor's divinity?

 

"Faith is a shield, a badge of the righteous, and is required for the very survival of the Emperor's soldiers. They were words Alaric had read thousands of times, but each time it gave him comfort as it did now. He was not alone. If the Emperor was not watching, then faith would mean nothing-but Alaric's soul was intact, and so faith must be a shield against corruption, and so the Emperor must have His eyes upon the Grey Knights."

 

Grey Knights, Ben Coulter, page 91

 

This is atheism? Ooooooookay.

 

But I applaud the crawfishing. I ask to be provided with someone banishing a daemon with their belief in the Imperial Truth the way Keeler did with nothing but her faith in the Emperor's divinity, you start talking about Custodes and Marines. So...faith = being a transhuman supersoldier. BUT THE IMPERIAL TRUTH IS STILL BETTER. For some reason.

AAAAAAAAND still missing the point.  I am wondering if you understand what atheism is at this point; banishing a daemon through material means is how an atheist would retaliate against daemons.  Getting back to our wider point, the Emperor didn't need to tell his primarchs about chaos since a primarch who knows about chaos=a primarch more likely to start worshipping chaos.  Daemonic incursions were unheard of BECAUSE OF THE IMPERIAL TRUTH.  No cultists=no rituals=no daemons in the materium.  If the legions did happen to encounter daemons, they needn't use faith and hope they are being watched over, they could use force of arms.  100,000 supersoldiers wearing tank-grade armour led by a perfect human, all of whom are immune to the more immediate debilitating effects of daemons can afford to treat them as xenos, on the rare occasions they encounter them.

 

Also, I would like to remind you of a few things:

 

-Chaplains are the keepers of the faith of their chapter.  Space Marines don't believe in the Emperor's divinity.  Faith is not used in the religious sense, rather it is faith in their brothers, their chapter, their imperium and their Emperor, himself, as a man.  We have seen nothing to suggest that the Emperor is treated as a god by the Grey Knights (your quote did not once contain the word "God-Emperor").

 

-Euphrati Keeler did not banish the daemon through faith.  It was intervention by the Emperor (In the audiobook about Malcador, he [The Sigilite] reveals that at that point in time, the Emperor WAS busying himself, in part, with aiding those loyal to him in need of aid.).  That is quite obviously what happened.  It is the same with the Sisters of Battle acts of faith; it is not their faith in and of itself affecting the outcome (that's orks 'yer thinkin of, 'umie!), but the Emperor aiding his servants.

 

And, just as you ask for an example of somebody calling upon a non-existent god they don't believe in to smite daemons, I will ask you for something just as ludicrous, to prove just as tangential a point: Provide an example of a daemon entering the materium, without the veil being thinned, without psykers being involved, without chaos cultists, without a warp rift, without someone already tainted arriving at this place, without the daemons being hidden in the materium already or anything.  Just popping up out of nowhere, for no reason.  Between the grey knights who's very souls are anathema to daemons despite not believe in the Emperor's divinity, between the Emperor being the one who banished the daemon aboard the Vengeful Spirit, between mortal weapons being the atheist's completely effective means of destroying daemons, I have provided ample sources to answer your silly weighted question.

[Wade Garrett]

Daemons appearing without chaos cultists and rituals? The fall of the eldar comes to mind. Also, I don't remember any mention of Khornate cults on Armegeddon before Angron dropped out of the sky on them, but he did have to halt his campaign to construct a bunch of Chaos Shrines to keep his forces in the materium. So...ehh.

 

And I think I need to clarify what I'm asking for. Not "Begone, in the name of that thing I don't believe in!" but more along the lines of using one's belief in rationality, logic, etc. as a sword and shield against the depredations of Warp predators the way Sororitas use their faith in the Emperor. For a [non 40k] example, go on youtube and search "Flight of Dragons Peter vs. Omadon Final battle." Worked in that movie, but the Chaos Daemons of 40k seem to run on different metaphysics than the Red Wizard.

[Legatus]

I think I will have to get semantic here for a bit. In general "faith" refers to the belief in something without any actual valid evidence. However, in 40K the Emperor does exist, and he does have the ability to affect the warp. So when a Space Marine or Sororita are described to have "faith" in the Emperor, that may not really be the most appropriate term for it. You could say that they are "loyal" to the Emperor. Or you could say that they have "faith", i.e. are confident, that the Emperor has the power to act on their behalf and is watching over them. It is not a "faith" that he even exists or has the ability to do such things in the first place. He does exist, and he does have such abilities. Just how much he will be doing for any individual across the galaxy is not clear.

 

GW uses the term "faith" to intentionally create a religious theme for the Imeprium. But "faith" in the Emperor should not be directly compared to "faith" in a religious deity.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I think I will have to get semantic here for a bit. In general "faith" refers to the belief in something without any actual valid evidence. However, in 40K the Emperor does exist, and he does have the ability to affect the warp. So when a Space Marine or Sororita are described to have "faith" in the Emperor, that may not really be the most appropriate term for it. You could say that they are "loyal" to the Emperor. Or you could say that they have "faith", i.e. are confident, that the Emperor has the power to act on their behalf and is watching over them. It is not a "faith" that he even exists or has the ability to do such things in the first place. He does exist, and he does have such abilities. Just how much he will be doing for any individual across the galaxy is not clear.

 

GW uses the term "faith" to intentionally create a religious theme for the Imeprium. But "faith" in the Emperor should not be directly compared to "faith" in a religious deity.

 

You're last statement is both correct and incorrect based on perspective.  It is my understanding that a large portion of Imperial citizenry in 40k have absolutely no evidence the Emperor exists at all, but still have faith in him.  I think your point is valid for a minority of Imperials like astartes and those who definitively know the Emperor exists, but not for the average Joe and Jane.  Because of this, direct comparisons to faith in a religious diety can be made with Joe and Jane.

[godking]

 

The Emperor could have helped Angron without humiliating him.

 

 

The Emperor activelly kept the existence of Chaos gods from Lorgar and his others sons which is one of the main reasons some of his sons fell too Chaos through ignorance of because they rightly felt betrayed by the emperor hiding something that important from him.

 

The emperor made some mistakes which cannot be simply explained away as the lesser of two evils.

If he had helped Angron, it would have stolen his honour.  Period.  

 

Most of his sons fell to chaos because they were lied to (like Horus) or forced to (like Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim, Alpharius too [forced through circumstance, not literally])...or were just psychos to begin with, who just took this uprising as an excuse to attack the Emperor (Haunter, Angron, Perturabo).  Only Lorgar went to chaos because of the chaos. And why would the Emperor have told them? How would the knowledge that the "warp xenos" were actually daemonic have helped them? It wouldn't have.  Remember, Magnus could have told his brother primarchs, too, if he had wanted to.  But he didn't either, because nothing good could come of it.  Would the primarch possessed of Immense bloodlust knowing there was a god equally obsessed with bloodlust be good for the Imperium? Would the primarch stupid enough to worship warp entities simply because they are powerful have been helping humanity if HE had known?  Plus, the more people who know about and think about the chaos gods, the stronger they are. No, the Emperor's plans to starve the chaos gods would not have benefited from the primarchs knowing about chaos.

 

The Emperor's only failing was underestimating Lorgar's (and Erebus/Kor Phaeron's) capacity for infectious stupid.

No not period in Betrayer  on page 310  Angron  and Lorgar specifically debate WHY the emperor chose not to save Angrons comrades and unleash the Warhounds to fight at Angron side.

 

 

Lorgars eyes where fierce now. But why ? Why did he let your army die ? Why did he steal you in a teleportation flare,when he could have remain here for a time. as he did on so many other worlds ? He had a legion your legion in orbit Angron. A single order and they would have bloodied their blades at your side,saving your rebel army and hailing you as their gene-sire. Instead he collared them , as he collared you.'Angron drooled , thick and wet, down his chin. I'll never know why. He never answered me. But he'll pay as the high-riders paid. And when  i stand before him on Terra, I will ask again . And them Lorgar our father will answer. The word Bear sighed, in the grip of something sublime and unshared. ' You deserve an answer.'

 

 

The emperor could have saved Angron Army without dishonouring him but CHOSE not to .

 

The emperors plan to starve the Chaos gods failed spectacularly as it was destined to fail you cannot keep the existence of the Chaos Gods a secret in an empire which relies on psykers to function. If it had'nt been Lorgar the Chaos gods would have made themselves known in another way. And let us not forget that the emperor used warp lore to engineer his primarchs.

[W0lfie]

@ Wade,

 

-Angron, like the other primarchs, doesn't follow seem to follow the rules for 'true' daemons.  He, like chaos space marines, are free to leave the warp through the eye of terror at anytime.  Especially when aboard a ship.  Normally, primarchs are just too heavily involved in the Great Game/playing god on their daemon worlds to care about the materium.  Their daemonic allies did need to stop and be replenished by altars, true, but chaos marines are born of the materium and generally fine existing in it.  Also, the other problem with your argument is that the ship had warp drives.  Warp drives tear open a hole in the materium.  That violates the conditions I set.

 

-The problem is that you're looking for something you saw in a movie to happen in 40k.  And the discipline of Space Marines, as well as the conditioning of imperial psykers, does (atheistically) prevent possession (and doubtworm).  Mentally resisting chaos does, thus, rob it of it's biggest weapon.  If chaos were nothing but the force of arms of it's daemons, it would be the least of the major threats to the imperium (other than Tau).  But looking for what you saw in that movie to happen in 40k is just indicating to me that you still are missing the point of the Imperial truth.

 

@Godking,

 

-Angron looks back and thinks that he would have liked the Emperor to help.  I disagree.  If the Emperor had let a legion loose and completely stolen the fight from Angron...on top of that, his first appearance before his legion being the Emperor needing to 'hold his hand' to keep him alive...I reiterate: the Emperor tried that with Mortarion, and it didn't end well.  He resented the Emperor from stealing his glory from him and for killing his adoptive father.  

[Octavulg]

Yeah, with Mortarion the Emperor goads him into attacking his adoptive father in the first place. Not exactly the same scenario.

 

EDIT: As a rule, when the Emperor treats the Primarchs like people they are loyal. When he treats them like objects who owe them allegiance, they are not.

 

This should not be surprising to anyone.

[W0lfie]

Yeah, with Mortarion the Emperor goads him into attacking his adoptive father in the first place. Not exactly the same scenario.

 

 

Mortarion was going to attack his father anyways; the Emperor stepped back and allowed Mortarion to try, and then swooped in and saved him when he failed.