The problem of the Emperor?

[Wade Garrett]

I swear I remember the Emperor challenging Mort to tackle his other dad single handedly, and if he failed he'd have to swear allegiance to Emps. But it's been a while since I read the Death Guard's IA.

[Octavulg]

Only the most toxic peaks were denied Mortarion and the Death Guard and they warred for months across the poisonous spine of Barbarus, until only one grim manse stood against them, one which Mortarion knew well. The concentration of death about it overcame his force, threatening even Mortarion himself, and so he withdrew. Upon his return, however, his world was destined to once again spin out of his control.

 

Mortarion and his brethren arrived to find the village alive unlike he had ever known it. On everyone's lips was word of the arrival of a stranger, a great benefactor who brought promise of salvation. The Primarch's mood darkened; this day of deliverance was one he had worked for all his life, and he found himself altogether unhappy to see it co-opted by the arrival of some newcomer of uncertain agenda.

 

Taletellers say Mortarion flattened the massive wooden door of the hall upon his entrance. Seated at banquet, he found the elders and a stranger who was their opposite in every imaginable way. Where they were gaunt and pale, he was robust, his flesh bronzed, his physique utterly perfect. The people greeted Mortarion's arrival expectantly. Despite the affect wrought upon him by Barbarus's poisons, the connection between the new benefactor and their defender was nevertheless plain to them all. As plain as father and son. However, Mortarion was oblivious to any connection. He greeted the stranger with barely masked hostility, which quickly turned to outright anger at the stranger's utter unflappability. The elders spoke of the new arrival's promise to unite the people of Barbarus within a great expanding brotherhood of humanity which could help them be rid of their persecution from above. Mortarion felt his moment of triumph slipping from him. Twisting the haft of his ever-present scythe until his knuckles whitened, he declared that he and his Death Guard needed no help to finish their quest for justice.

 

It is said that the benefactor quietly challenged the stormy young Primarch's assertion, pointing out the Death Guard's failure to reach the last high citadel, and then threw down a gauntlet. If Mortarion could defeat the high overlord alone, he would withdraw and leave Barbarus to its own means. But if he failed, they would join his Imperium of Man and Mortarion would swear total fealty and allegiance to him.

A different situation from Angron. And, I think, a pretty fair ground for resentment.

[Augustus]

I disagree.

 

The elders spoke of the new arrival's promise to unite the people of Barbarus within a great expanding brotherhood of humanity which could help them be rid of their persecution from above.

 

 

The Emperor is promising that he will get rid of the last enemy. One that Mortarion had already failed at. 

The Emperor had already tried competition with his some of his other sons to some success. Russ, Vulkan. 

 

If Mortarion truly, and I mean TRULY cared for his people he would have welcomed assistance. He hates Tyrants only because he wants to be one. That's why he left his warlord father in the first place. He knew he needed help in defeating him. He cares nothing for people. Look how his legion treats people e.g. want'less destruction of life. Then he has the audacity to hate on the Emperor for being a Tyrant? For real? For what? Was the Emperor a little to aggressive with his strategy during the Crusade? A little to destructive? You mean like the Death Guard? 

[godking]

@ Wade,

 

-Angron, like the other primarchs, doesn't follow seem to follow the rules for 'true' daemons.  He, like chaos space marines, are free to leave the warp through the eye of terror at anytime.  Especially when aboard a ship.  Normally, primarchs are just too heavily involved in the Great Game/playing god on their daemon worlds to care about the materium.  Their daemonic allies did need to stop and be replenished by altars, true, but chaos marines are born of the materium and generally fine existing in it.  Also, the other problem with your argument is that the ship had warp drives.  Warp drives tear open a hole in the materium.  That violates the conditions I set.

 

-The problem is that you're looking for something you saw in a movie to happen in 40k.  And the discipline of Space Marines, as well as the conditioning of imperial psykers, does (atheistically) prevent possession (and doubtworm).  Mentally resisting chaos does, thus, rob it of it's biggest weapon.  If chaos were nothing but the force of arms of it's daemons, it would be the least of the major threats to the imperium (other than Tau).  But looking for what you saw in that movie to happen in 40k is just indicating to me that you still are missing the point of the Imperial truth.

 

@Godking,

 

-Angron looks back and thinks that he would have liked the Emperor to help.  I disagree.  If the Emperor had let a legion loose and completely stolen the fight from Angron...on top of that, his first appearance before his legion being the Emperor needing to 'hold his hand' to keep him alive...I reiterate: the Emperor tried that with Mortarion, and it didn't end well.  He resented the Emperor from stealing his glory from him and for killing his adoptive father.  

Different situations Mortarion never really cared about his people Angron actually did care about his fellow rebels.

 

And most importantly Angron never really cared for glory.

 

And Angron did ask the emperor why he did'nt save his army.

 

I think that Angron may have been somewhat resentful but would ultimately be grateful for the emperor saving his people.

[Augustus]

They were probably super Khornate given the World Eaters' battle chant:  "War cares not from where the blood flows" Outcast Dead

 

Now explain to crazyAngron what chaos "isn't" but "is" and explain why you couldn't save them. 

[Wade Garrett]

Darn that Mortarion! He spends decades overthrowing the autocratic rulers of Barbus, then he has the unmitigated gall not to be delirious with joy when a strange man from space shows up and announces he's going to make Barbus a part of his autocratically ruled realm. ("Brotherhood of man" my heinie, you don't lord over a brotherhood of equals from a giant palace that can be seen from orbit around Mars.)

[W0lfie]

Different situations Mortarion never really cared about his people Angron actually did care about his fellow rebels.

 

And most importantly Angron never really cared for glory.

 

And Angron did ask the emperor why he did'nt save his army.

 

I think that Angron may have been somewhat resentful but would ultimately be grateful for the emperor saving his people.

When Mortarion descended the mountain, he realised he had "found his people".  The reason he fought the warlord was to achieve justice for the oppressed people of Barbarus.  He was not uncaring of them.

 

"May have been somewhat resentful", it was enough for Mortarion to betray the Emperor.

[W0lfie]

Darn that Mortarion! He spends decades overthrowing the autocratic rulers of Barbus, then he has the unmitigated gall not to be delirious with joy when a strange man from space shows up and announces he's going to make Barbus a part of his autocratically ruled realm. ("Brotherhood of man" my heinie, you don't lord over a brotherhood of equals from a giant palace that can be seen from orbit around Mars.)

A: There is no indication of how long his campaign took, given the way it's described "decades" sounds ludicrous.

 

B: Of course it's an autocracy.  Are you going to tally quintillions of votes every four years?

 

C: When you are fighting to achieve justice for a people, and then get angry at someone for helping you out, you are not really doing the people a favour; you are using them to justify killing.  

 

D: The Imperial Palace is not an expression of hubris.  It is firstly a defensive structure, for protecting the Golden Throne and, by extension, the human Webway.  Secondly, it the Emperor's way of honouring those who defend the Imperium.  "Along the grand hallway to the (Eternity) Gate, thousands upon thousands of banners line the way, those of the Emperor's servants: the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard.  Just as they honour the Emperor, he returns such honour."  Also, "The Imperial Palace is as heavily urbanized and populated as any hive city.  Adepts numbering in the billions work and reside within the Palace."

[Wade Garrett]

So, after a bloody war to overthrow a dictator is all but over (Mortarion has taken every fortress but one) another power graciously swoops in, announces it'll finish the war, and in return they want to annex your nation. This is clearly perfectly legit and Mortarion being upset was a sign of his EEE-vil.

 

And I'm sure the people starving in the Petioners City are thrilled knowing the palace is so gigantic because the Emperor needs the space to hang banners to show his appreciation of the little people.

[W0lfie]

So, after a bloody war to overthrow a dictator is all but over (Mortarion has taken every fortress but one) another power graciously swoops in, announces it'll finish the war, and in return they want to annex your nation. This is clearly perfectly legit and Mortarion being upset was a sign of his EEE-vil.

 

And I'm sure the people starving in the Petioners City are thrilled knowing the palace is so gigantic because the Emperor needs the space to hang banners to show his appreciation of the little people.

You are forgetting that Mortarion physically could not take the last fortress.  He would never win his war.  His people would always be oppressed by the warlord.  The Emperor saved Mortarion's life and killed the last warlord, and then re-unites (annex would imply he was simply adding the world to the Imperium; really, he was bringing it back into the fold, after having been separated by Old Night) Barbarus with the flourishing Imperium of Man.  Mortarion turning against Mankind and, allied with the forces of chaos, attacking Terra and brutally murdering it's inhabitants because the Emperor saved his life, finished the war he could not and re-united his world with the Imperium of Man does make him evil, yes.

 

The Palace is gigantic because it houses multiple billions of humans, contains the administratum (where 1,000,000+ worlds are run), is the seat of the high lords, contains mighty defenses designed to protect the most important world in existence and, yes, contains a hallway with battle honours.  It is huge because it has to be.  Don't think for one second it is all just a continent-sized, pimpin' throne room.  

 

Also, clearly you're right; the Emperor should just let all of his servants die forgotten forever, their sacrifices forgotten, so he can use the space occupied by the banners to hold charity luncheons.  Before you say "see? you agree", that was indeed sarcastic.

[Octavulg]

He couldn't win his war then(he could refine the breathing apparatuses etc and come back later). Also, if the warlord's cowering in his castle, he's not much of a threat.

The young Primarch realised that he was among his own kind, that the 'fragile prey' of the warlords were his own people. And with the realisation came rage. He determined to bring them the justice denied them by the dark powers which moved above.

Yeah. He's a real scumbag, motivated only by greed for his own personal power.

[Billuriye]

He couldn't win his war then(he could refine the breathing apparatuses etc and come back later). Also, if the warlord's cowering in his castle, he's not much of a threat.

How do you know he can refine his stuff? Besides the xeno warlord was also a witch, so it's entirely plausible that Nurgle sustains him. Same Nurgle who made a mockery of Mortarion and his legions famed resilience. Second time for Morty. As for him not being a threat, who knows? Mortarion was stuck with bunch of humans who were susceptible to xenos witchery. It's more like a worthless stalemate.

 

Edit: I've read the story again, well seems like Mortarion couldn't return back for better preparation. He didn't go "Oh screw this, i'll come back later xeno pops, you'll see!" which throws the probability for refining his breather (assuming he can). He gambled all out and failed. 

[W0lfie]

He couldn't win his war then(he could refine the breathing apparatuses etc and come back later). Also, if the warlord's cowering in his castle, he's not much of a threat.

The young Primarch realised that he was among his own kind, that the 'fragile prey' of the warlords were his own people. And with the realisation came rage. He determined to bring them the justice denied them by the dark powers which moved above.

Yeah. He's a real scumbag, motivated only by greed for his own personal power.

We have no reason to believe he could refine his breathing apparatus to those levels, unless you have proof he could? And we know that the warlords of Barbarus were perfectly capable of raising armies of the undead so yeah, still a threat.

Also, I referenced that exact quote just a few posts up. The point, however, was that he clearly was NOT looking out for those people, that he was using them as an excuse to attack his Warlord father because if he were really doing it for them, then the Emperor arriving/helping would be a godsend, an absolutely miracle. A means to help his people, and rid them of the last warlord! But clearly, if his receiving help only makes him angry that HE didn't get to strike the killing blow...there is only one logical conclusion to be made.

[Octavulg]

We have no reason to believe he could refine his breathing apparatus to those levels, unless you have proof he could?

Do you have proof he couldn't?

 

If nothing else, he could just create suits which totally protected the body and had oxygen supplies. It'd take a long time, but I suspect it'd be possible.

 

And we know that the warlords of Barbarus were perfectly capable of raising armies of the undead so yeah, still a threat.

But the warlord didn't have an army left. So he'd need to do it himself. Which would expose him.

 

Also, I referenced that exact quote just a few posts up. The point, however, was that he clearly was NOT looking out for those people, that he was using them as an excuse to attack his Warlord father because if he were really doing it for them, then the Emperor arriving/helping would be a godsend, an absolutely miracle. A means to help his people, and rid them of the last warlord! But clearly, if his receiving help only makes him angry that HE didn't get to strike the killing blow...there is only one logical conclusion to be made.

Yeah. Being upset that you almost totally freeing your planet is being forgotten by those whose trust you had to work to earn because this new guy showed up with some shiny armor and good looks and promises of doing what you've already effectively done? What an ass.

 

Mortarion worked hard to be accepted. He spent months away working to free the world. He destroyed all the enemies but one, and that one was effectively neutralized. He'd succeeded, and he'd earned some appreciation. It'd been a long campaign, too - he's probably tired, as are the Death Guard.

 

The Emperor shows up and everyone loves him immediately. And then he offers to free them from their enemies (something Mortarion has just done). And everyone talks about how great this is.

 

Wanting to help others and taking pride in your accomplishments are not mutually exclusive. Mortarion put a lot more effort into helping the people of Barbarus than the Emperor did. And what does he get greeted by? "We Love the Emperor" day. And the Emperor's shiny and healthy and everyone loves him.

 

And then, of course, Mortarion dares to challenge the Emperor. And so the Emperor does what he always does when any of his sons challenge him on anything, he beats them at it and rubs their noses in it.

 

In a shocking twist, some of them resent him for this. Thinking this makes his sons unreasonable, evil or selfish is ridiculous. It makes them human.

 

Consider what kind of father insists on trying to beat his sons at everything in order to make them follow him.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and they tell us his motivation:

Mortarion climbed ever higher, driven by the inevitability of the imminent conflict with his once master, driven by his desire to bring final justice for the people of his world. However he was mostly motivated by a compulsion to prove himself to the stranger below.

[Billuriye]

Do you have proof he couldn't?

 

If nothing else, he could just create suits which totally protected the body and had oxygen supplies. It'd take a long time, but I suspect it'd be possible.

 

You claimed as such, it is your burden to provide a proof. There is nothing that indicates he could come up with some better special suit that would protect him against toxic air. He can't enlist Martians either. Besides, all these conjecture about Mortarion coming up with better equipment is worthless. He had his best shot, he failed. He neither could(due to poisonous gas overwhelming him) nor would(trying to keep his promise to Barbarans) retreat, providing him a second chance.

[Legatus]

Mortarion greeted the Emperor with hostility, while the Emperor was very composed. He then offered Mortario a chance to take matters into his own hands and to leave him and his people alone. Mortarion tried, but failed.

[Wade Garrett]

Thing is, Emps put a deadline and a restriction on Mort's efforts to crack the citadel. "Do it all by yourself, and do it right now."

 

So any solution that takes time and aid from others (sitting at the bottom of the mountain and trying to starve the warlord out, building great big trebuchets and dragging them up the mountain, tunneling through the mountain, or as mentioned, further refinements to the enviroment suit) are now off the table, Mortarion's choices are to bend the knee to Emps or try to John Mclane his way to the into the castle.

 

He didn't get to take his best shot, he got pushed into trying to solo an Evil Overlord on short notice. I don't imagine Corax would have done much better if the Emperor challenged him to defeat the remaining Tech Guilds of Deliverance all by his lonesome, no prep time, just head down to the planet and start cracking skulls. Oddly, that's exactly what Angron wanted and he got denied.

[Legatus]

The Emperor was able to save the world right there and then. Why wait for months or even years to give Mortarion another shot, which is not even sure to succeed at all?

[godking]

 

We have no reason to believe he could refine his breathing apparatus to those levels, unless you have proof he could?

Do you have proof he couldn't?

 

If nothing else, he could just create suits which totally protected the body and had oxygen supplies. It'd take a long time, but I suspect it'd be possible.

 

>And we know that the warlords of Barbarus were perfectly capable of raising armies of the undead so yeah, still a threat.

But the warlord didn't have an army left. So he'd need to do it himself. Which would expose him.

 

Also, I referenced that exact quote just a few posts up. The point, however, was that he clearly was NOT looking out for those people, that he was using them as an excuse to attack his Warlord father because if he were really doing it for them, then the Emperor arriving/helping would be a godsend, an absolutely miracle. A means to help his people, and rid them of the last warlord! But clearly, if his receiving help only makes him angry that HE didn't get to strike the killing blow...there is only one logical conclusion to be made.

Yeah. Being upset that you almost totally freeing your planet is being forgotten by those whose trust you had to work to earn because this new guy showed up with some shiny armor and good looks and promises of doing what you've already effectively done? What an ass.

 

Mortarion worked hard to be accepted. He spent months away working to free the world. He destroyed all the enemies but one, and that one was effectively neutralized. He'd succeeded, and he'd earned some appreciation. It'd been a long campaign, too - he's probably tired, as are the Death Guard.

 

The Emperor shows up and everyone loves him immediately. And then he offers to free them from their enemies (something Mortarion has just done). And everyone talks about how great this is.

 

Wanting to help others and taking pride in your accomplishments are not mutually exclusive. Mortarion put a lot more effort into helping the people of Barbarus than the Emperor did. And what does he get greeted by? "We Love the Emperor" day. And the Emperor's shiny and healthy and everyone loves him.

 

And then, of course, Mortarion dares to challenge the Emperor. And so the Emperor does what he always does when any of his sons challenge him on anything, he beats them at it and rubs their noses in it.

 

In a shocking twist, some of them resent him for this. Thinking this makes his sons unreasonable, evil or selfish is ridiculous. It makes them human.

 

Consider what kind of father insists on trying to beat his sons at everything in order to make them follow him.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and they tell us his motivation:

Mortarion climbed ever higher, driven by the inevitability of the imminent conflict with his once master, driven by his desire to bring final justice for the people of his world. However he was mostly motivated by a compulsion to prove himself to the stranger below.

 

Technically per the rules of the challenges Vulkan & Russ beat the Emperor when they challenged him.

 

Its not true that the Emperor always beats his sons and rubs their nose in it.

 

He is just wildly inconsistent in his treatment of his sons.

[yhta]

well, mortarion like angron and curze have some issues with the emperor but none will be become a full heresy until horus came up and star his plans(or lorgar plans) for the imperium, horus saw that some of his brother have some issues here and there and play them very well,

 

or something he is heresy after all

[godking]

 

Different situations Mortarion never really cared about his people Angron actually did care about his fellow rebels.

 

And most importantly Angron never really cared for glory.

 

And Angron did ask the emperor why he did'nt save his army.

 

I think that Angron may have been somewhat resentful but would ultimately be grateful for the emperor saving his people.

When Mortarion descended the mountain, he realised he had "found his people".  The reason he fought the warlord was to achieve justice for the oppressed people of Barbarus.  He was not uncaring of them.

 

"May have been somewhat resentful", it was enough for Mortarion to betray the Emperor.

Angron loved his people to the point that  a 100 + years later he still grieved fot them.

 

Mortarion saw it as his duty to free his people that does not specifically mean that he truly loved them.

[Wade Garrett]

The Emperor was able to save the world right there and then. Why wait for months or even years to give Mortarion another shot, which is not even sure to succeed at all?

Save the planet? There's a grand total of one fortress and it's commander left, the Death Guard IA presents it as more of a mopping up operation than a Lord of the Rings esque clash. I'm not sure how to view this besides "Mortarion does all the world saving work, the Emperor gets all the credit."

 

Now, who knows what sort of ruler Mortarion would have made, and if the IoM has the means to fix the planet's toxic atmosphere then the people probably are better off going with Emps, but as things stand the Death Lord seems to have a reason to be hacked off.

[W0lfie]

 

We have no reason to believe he could refine his breathing apparatus to those levels, unless you have proof he could?

Do you have proof he couldn't?

 

If nothing else, he could just create suits which totally protected the body and had oxygen supplies. It'd take a long time, but I suspect it'd be possible.

 

>And we know that the warlords of Barbarus were perfectly capable of raising armies of the undead so yeah, still a threat.

But the warlord didn't have an army left. So he'd need to do it himself. Which would expose him.

 

Also, I referenced that exact quote just a few posts up. The point, however, was that he clearly was NOT looking out for those people, that he was using them as an excuse to attack his Warlord father because if he were really doing it for them, then the Emperor arriving/helping would be a godsend, an absolutely miracle. A means to help his people, and rid them of the last warlord! But clearly, if his receiving help only makes him angry that HE didn't get to strike the killing blow...there is only one logical conclusion to be made.

Yeah. Being upset that you almost totally freeing your planet is being forgotten by those whose trust you had to work to earn because this new guy showed up with some shiny armor and good looks and promises of doing what you've already effectively done? What an ass.

 

Mortarion worked hard to be accepted. He spent months away working to free the world. He destroyed all the enemies but one, and that one was effectively neutralized. He'd succeeded, and he'd earned some appreciation. It'd been a long campaign, too - he's probably tired, as are the Death Guard.

 

The Emperor shows up and everyone loves him immediately. And then he offers to free them from their enemies (something Mortarion has just done). And everyone talks about how great this is.

 

Wanting to help others and taking pride in your accomplishments are not mutually exclusive. Mortarion put a lot more effort into helping the people of Barbarus than the Emperor did. And what does he get greeted by? "We Love the Emperor" day. And the Emperor's shiny and healthy and everyone loves him.

 

And then, of course, Mortarion dares to challenge the Emperor. And so the Emperor does what he always does when any of his sons challenge him on anything, he beats them at it and rubs their noses in it.

 

In a shocking twist, some of them resent him for this. Thinking this makes his sons unreasonable, evil or selfish is ridiculous. It makes them human.

 

Consider what kind of father insists on trying to beat his sons at everything in order to make them follow him.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh, and they tell us his motivation:

Mortarion climbed ever higher, driven by the inevitability of the imminent conflict with his once master, driven by his desire to bring final justice for the people of his world. However he was mostly motivated by a compulsion to prove himself to the stranger below.

 

Soooo, I'm just going to bolden the parts that have no basis in fact.

 

First one: Stating opinion as fact.  Nice.

 

Second one: How do you need to be exposed to perform sorcery? It would work better in isolation, if anything.

 

Third one: No one had forgotten him.  Nothing at all states or suggests this.

 

Fourth one: "promises of salvation" is not what Mortarion had already done.  Even once the warlords were killed, they're still stuck on a planet who's very air can kill.  We know that the Emperor's Imperium (as opposed to the 40k one) has huge terraformation capabilities.  

 

Fifth one: Again, being able to potentially raise an army of the undead is not neutralized.  We also have nothing stating that the warlord was alone in his mansion in the gases where Mortarion couldn't walk.  So he probably had his army still with him, given there was no previous account of Mortarion fighting that specific warlord's forces.

 

Sixth one: He said nothing about their enemies.  He simply promised Salvation.  The people weren't gossiping how great he was, they were simply talking about the fact that a random golden stranger showed up and promised salvation.  Nothing states that even the elders loved the Emperor.

 

Seventh One: See point six.

 

Eighth one: Mortarion issues no challenge to the Emperor.  Also, how does the Emperor "rub his son's noses in it"? I seem to recall him forfeiting his competition with Vulkan in order to save the Primarch's life.  In fact, most of his challenges against his sons were issued by them, and the Emperor accepted.  The fact that he won them all doesn't mean he rubs it in.

 

Ninth One: As I just pointed out, the point you refer to as "this" is invalid.  On top of that, betraying someone and murdering untold billions of innocents, turning against your brothers and father is, in your opinion, a reasonable response to losing? Okay now.

[W0lfie]

Technically per the rules of the challenges Vulkan & Russ beat the Emperor when they challenged him.

 

 

Its not true that the Emperor always beats his sons and rubs their nose in it.

 

He is just wildly inconsistent in his treatment of his sons.

To be fair, the Emperor did at least win the last challenge against russ, and chose to forfeit the last one against Vulkan in order to save him.  You are correct though, he did lose 2/3 against Russ, and he did drop his Salamander against Vulkan.

[Wade Garrett]

Is it just me, or can you truly declare that the Warmaster's Legions won at Terra using the criteria in this argument? They too are sitting in am impregnable hellhole where the "good guys" can't go, doing all kinds of sorcery and stuff.

 

This description sounds much better than "bottled up in an wretched wasteland that you can't leave without getting attacked".