What happens if Magnus does not go to terra ?

[Raven Angel]

All right back to it guys. I think Horus wold have sent Angron if Magnus hadn't colluded in his own demise. The question then is could the Thousand son wooped the World Eater or not and would Magnus gotten out alive. Its possible that Magnus could have been killed with the survivors fleeing to Terra.

[Kol Saresk]

Huh !? I thought this was evident...I mean, I' ve read on other forums, majority of people are inclined to belive that was Tzeechian push else I' dont see the point of that "benevolent entity" in the book chapter....

I' mean who gains the most if Deamons invade Imperial palace? Who will gain the most if webway goes to hell? Who will get sanctioned after that mess?

Accident? Hell no! Tzeench is the dude who pushes when someone needs a push...

You can read a lot of things on other forums. They are usually called opinions and therefore are not to be used as facts. Until something flat out comes and says that the benevolent spirit is Tzeentch, it can be whatever anyone wants it to be.

 

The warp is the physical embodiment of our thoughts and emotions. That is a fact stated throughout the entire 40k background. There has been the existence of more benevolent creatures before. Fact. After all, there was the Eldar Goddess Isha who is now a prisoner of Nurgle IIRC. And let us not forget the Saint Sabbat with her wings of green flame and the Living Martyr.

 

Opinion, the benevolent spirit was actually Tzeentch. Is there a quote to prove this?

 

Opinion, the benevolent spirit is a benevolent spirit. Is there a quote to prove this. No, it is an opinion.

 

Factual opinion, it is possible to draw to draw warp energy through conduits. It is shown in some examples of non-psykers weilding the power of the warp through "spells" and items. Most shown are characters like Kor Phaeron an Erebus. The Wolves say they draw their power from Fenris. It is possible. However, Fenris is nothing more than a conduit. It might be a purer conduit than say, an accursed crozius, but it is still a conduit. It is a known fact throughout the 40k background that all psychic power comes from the warp. How it gets from the warp to the user can happen in a variety of ways.

 

Of course, you are more than welcome to believe this is my opinion and therefore nothing you have to pay attention to. Just like it is your opinion that anything that goes right or wrong(assuming it is still "wrong") with Magnus is exactly how Tzeentch planned it. Although that would mean that Magnus wasn't the only playing to Tzeentch's tune when Russ ignored the Emperor and said 'Hi' to Magnus with an orbital bombardment on his capital city.

[DarthMarko]

Thing is "Magnus saw a benevolent" spirit,,,,but I'm also thinking, this was push from a higher power...

It all sums up nicely when you think it trough...

[Haranin]

The result of Magnus' arrival at earth was a daemonic incursion into the webway directly from the warp, and a breach of the wards of terra which took the Emperor arguably millennia to raise. Not to mention taking the battery for the Golden throne and converting him into an enemy of the emperor, and forcing the emperor to be the battery.

 

Tzeentch would be all to happy to give Magnus whatever power he wanted freely to achieve that end. If your enemy is about rip his guts out through his nose, you hand him whatever he needs.

[Kol Saresk]

Thing is "Magnus saw a benevolent" spirit,,,,but I'm also thinking, this was push from a higher power...

It all sums up nicely when you think it trough...

But depending on the individual thought process, any theory can exist and it be explained by "once you think about it."

[DarthMarko]

So by your account that was just a warp creature giving him a push ? So basically Mcneill put that creature there just to pick up hitchikers (especially Magnus) ?

To simplistic for my taste and the point of the chapter is rather moot...

 

The
result of Magnus' arrival at earth was a daemonic incursion into the
webway directly from the warp, and a breach of the wards of terra which
took the Emperor arguably millennia to raise. Not to mention taking the
battery for the Golden throne and converting him into an enemy of the
emperor, and forcing the emperor to be the battery.

 

Tzeentch
would be all to happy to give Magnus whatever power he wanted freely to
achieve that end. If your enemy is about rip his guts out through his
nose, you hand him whatever he needs.

This^

[Kol Saresk]

So by your account that was just a warp creature giving him a push ? So basically Mcneill put that creature there just to pick up hitchikers (especially Magnus) ?

Not quite that simplistic. More like it was simply a warp creature born of benevolence, Magnus ran into it, it sensed that he was in a hurry to try and do his good deed for the Boy Scouts and it just gave him a shove because it was a being born out of benevolence. Like I said, if we take into account that the warp is a physical manifestation of our entire emotional spectrum and thought processes, both good and bad, then just as there are malevolent entities, there are also benevolent ones. After all, there was that Star Child fluff that looks like it may be seeing a resurgence. Whether or not this was one of the benevolent entities is unknown. It could have been an actual one or you may be right, it just might have been Tzeentch. Don't know. I'm just presenting a plausible theory. Besides, it is Graham McNeill. Every now and then he writes some very good stuff. But logical thought processes are rarely involved.

 

And like I said, Tzeentch may have been behind every nook and cranny of the story of Magnus, making sure that everything that happened actually happened. But that would also mean that Tzeentch manipulated Russ through Horus into ignoring the Emperor, a crime that Russ seemed more than willing to condemn Magnus for, as evidenced by the fact that he didn't even ask for a surrender but said "Hi!" with an orbital bombardment. Was Magnus an arrogant prick for believing he knew best? Yes. Did he need any help falling into damnation? No. The tragedy of Magnus in my opinion isn't that he was pushed into the sun, but like Icarus before him he just flew straight into it without giving a damn until the wax melted around his arms and he began to fall.

[godking]

All right back to it guys. I think Horus wold have sent Angron if Magnus hadn't colluded in his own demise. The question then is could the Thousand son wooped the World Eater or not and would Magnus gotten out alive. Its possible that Magnus could have been killed with the survivors fleeing to Terra.

Angron and his World Eaters get beat in space.

 

In this scenario Magnus would not have held back and would have destroyed the World eater fleet in space.

 

The world eaters also dont have any Sisters of Silence to counteract tsPsykers

[Count Orlok]

Regarding the apparent (until we're told otherwise) benevolent entity in the Warp who nods at Magnus:

 

Given the that the Warp does cause all sorts of temporal oddities to occur and assuming that the Chaos Gods are able to utilise thi?s trait, is it at all possible that, if the Emperor by the time of 40K is actually a God due to the almost 10K years of worship and that the Star Child theory is having a resurgence of sorts, is it possible that the benevolent entity was actually the God-Emperor from the future giving Magnus his blessing as he knows that what is going to happen has to happen to pave the way for his ascension?

 

I will admit that it's about as long a long shot as is possible to get and pretty out there, but I don't think it's entirely outside the realms of (un)reason.

[Kol Saresk]

Regarding the apparent (until we're told otherwise) benevolent entity in the Warp who nods at Magnus:

 

Given the that the Warp does cause all sorts of temporal oddities to occur and assuming that the Chaos Gods are able to utilise thi?s trait, is it at all possible that, if the Emperor by the time of 40K is actually a God due to the almost 10K years of worship and that the Star Child theory is having a resurgence of sorts, is it possible that the benevolent entity was actually the God-Emperor from the future giving Magnus his blessing as he knows that what is going to happen has to happen to pave the way for his ascension?

 

I will admit that it's about as long a long shot as is possible to get and pretty out there, but I don't think it's entirely outside the realms of (un)reason.

Exactly. The benevolent spirit can be anythng from DarthhMarko and Peter's Tzeentch manifestation to my actually benevolent spirit to this simply being an extension of the God-Emepror's warp presence bleeding back into the past. It could also be one of these beings in that "greater war" daemon princes are always leaving for as well. And none of these theories will be wrong simply because none of them can be proven right. Welcome to science.

[DarthMarko]

^Lol - Ok...You know that I respect your opinion...But I'm headstrong as a mule :-)I mean the whole book (his life) Tzeench plays him like a lute,

so for me -( Magnus flight controls failing + nice push from warp) + deamonic incursion = Emperor going bezerk & Prospero burns.....I don't think this is science - simply logic...

 

Like you said there are multiple choices - but I'm willing to bet my hat, that benevolent spirit isn't just "benevolent spirit"....

 

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/Blue_5252/The%20Simpsons/homerhmm-1.jpg

[Kol Saresk]

And it may turn out that way. It's just that in my opinion, if we look at Magnus, he is the only Primarch who not only shows psychic abilities, but seeks to fully manifest them on his own without a reason for it other than he wants to. He continues to further those abilities and eventually seeks to try and tame the warp. All the while he is keeping constant contact with the Emperor. When the Emperor finally shows up on Prospero, he presents Magnus with a Legion primarily made by psykers who were untrained in how to control their power and that very power is now trying to kill them. So what does he do? He runs to the source, the warp itself. In there, he finds a being that is capable of controlling time.

 

Did the Devil twist Faust's arm into accepting the deal? No. Did Tzeentch force Magnus into trading his eye for the lives of the Thousand Sons? No. Magnus did it of his own violition. Why? Because he thought he could outsmart the Devil. Magnus was arrogant enough to think "I may have to take your deal now, but when you come to collect I will fight you and I will win." Tzeentch only needed to prod Magnus at one point in history. At that small, backwards planet. He showed up as a powerful daemon. Magnus defeated that daemon. And when that happened, his arrogance was fanned from a mere smouldering spark into a full-blown conflagration. We see the Thousand Sons go from being careful with the powers they use to losing all restraint. That culminates in the Edict of Nikea, which bans the use of psychic powers among the Astartes. And what do we see Magnus do? "Oh, if I go home to Prospero where I am out of sight, I can continue to teach my Sons how to master the warp. Not only that, but they can teach all of the remembrancers we picked how to use their powers. And one day i]I[/i] will walk up to the Emperor and show him the fruits of my labor and I will bring in a glorius age of psychic awareness for Humanity, an achievement that will help all of Humanity to become enlightened."

 

What Magnus forgot is that he had already been told no. But he did it anyway. And in the original continuity, it resulted in him using unconventional means to blaze through the warp, find a hole in the webway, tear that hole even wider and then finally destroy the wards on Terra.

 

I look at this and I see that Magnus needed no prodding. He was more than willing to walk into damnation if it meant proving that he was right. And it was exactly what he did. Why manipulate someone who is going to do exactly what you want anyways?

 

But hey, like I said, I could be wrong and Tzeentch could literally be behind every single nook and cranny, making sure that every player in the game that is the life of Magnus was exactly where they needed to be and did exactly what they needed to, all the way from the Emperor, to Horus, to Arhiman, to Russ and to Magnus himself.

[Crimson Hawk]

What happens if Magnus decided against recklessly going to Terra to warn the emperor but used conventional methods like Psykers to try to warn the Emperor ?

 

Obviously the Wolves dont sack Prospero in this scenario

 

The wards on Terra are not destroyed meaning  that the emperor migh have taken a more active role in the battle against Horus

 

The deal magnus made with Chaos would be voided probably meaning that the thousand sons would be mutated by their use os warp energy.

 

Magnus would by far be Horus and Lorgars most dangerous opponent.

 

How do things progresss in this scenario ?

Well, two of the most powerful legions would have both entered the Heresy unscathed. The Space Wolves, as the hunters of other legions, would have been put to ridiculously powerful effect, possibly serving as the Emperor's personal bodyguard (alongside the Custodes, obviously). Magnus wouldn't have opened up hell on Terra, and probably been able to defeat many of the traitor Primarchs, due to the fact many of them simply aren't as powerful as Russ. The Sisters of Silence would also be able to respond to the traitors, and as one of the Imperium's trump cards, would have been insanely useful if Horus's forces had somehow opened the warp without Magnus.

 

So I think it's pretty clear that the Burning of Prospero was a crucial engagement in the Heresy, and without it, the war would have been pretty decidedly in the Imperium's favour. 

[Kol Saresk]

if Horus's forces had somehow opened the warp without Magnus.

 

No offense, but even in the original continuity Horus' forces are opening the warp without Magnus. Lorgar is the one doing all the work. Even now two hears after the Heresy has opened up, about two and a half years after Prospero has been burned, Magnus still has not fully joined the Traitors. Yes, he deliberates with them as the Imperium declared him a Traitor the moment he ran from Russ.

 

Bu there lies the biggest problem, we don't know what would happen if Magnus didn't destroy the wards on Terra other than the daemonic incursion would have been the same as whatever it was before Magnus bungled it up. The Emperor may still have arrested Magnus for his crimes as at the time, he would be "falsely" accusing Horus of crimes he has yet to commit while still breaking the Edict of Nikea.

 

The accusing takes place just after Davin. The Heresy has yet to truly develop. The "purgings" haven't even happened yet. Right now, accusing Horus of treachery is like saying the U.S. Vice President is hatching a conspiracy to assassinate the President with nothing more than a gut feeling.

 

Granted, in the long run it will mean that the Emperor will have the chance to participate in the Heresy at a much earlier stage. But for Magnus, who can say.

[[TA]Typher]

If it wasn't for magnus the signalitte would still be alive.

 

 

Also the edict of nikea wasn't being followed, even by the space wolves. In one of the recent BL books a group of observer wolves cleary use powers.

[AGPO]

There are other alternatives to Magnus either trashing the throne room or trying to inform the Emperor by other means. He could for example try to take out Erebus before he could corrupt Horus on Davin, either personally by attacking him through the warp or asteral projection, or else by warning someone like Loken of Erebus's plan between the incidents with the Interex and Davin. In False Gods Magnus shows he knows exactly what Erebus is up to. Taking him out then taking the Book of Lorgar and the Anatheme (sp?) to lay as evidence before the Emperor and Horus of Lorgar's corruption would have been far more effective than trying to expose Horus before he did anything.

[Raven Angel]

There are actually a number of different options for the time line. Personally I think based on what Magnus knew and when the best course of action would actually have been to interrupt the Emperor's proclamation at Nikea and tell him about your vision. As powerful a voice as Magnus was against Chaos imagine if both he and big E had shown up at Davin together?

[Kol Saresk]

But the vision occured after Nikea didn't it?

[Raven Angel]

No it was right before the Emperor makes his announcement on Nikea.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah. My bad for not remembering correctly. In that case, yes why didn't he try to tell the Emperor then? Although now that I am remembering correctly, Magnus went back to Prospero to check to see if his vision was real and only after he had gathered enough evidence to find "prophecies" in many of Terra's pre-Unification cultures(such as Egypt, go figure) did he then try to contact the Emperor. I think. Does that sound right?

[Wade Garrett]

_Question:

 

_{Powering the Golden Throne seems to be an extremely torturous process AND a permenant position, if Magnus was able to discover that was what the Emperor intended for him, wouldn't that be a wonderful motivation for him to either side with Horus or take his entire Legion and run for the deepest black? Either way the Sons are out of the game.}

 

_{As for the Wolves...Prospero Burns the Avatar of Tzeencht specifically states the big plan was for both the SW and TS to grind one another into oblivion, having a not shredded Space Wolves Legion was a bit of a wrench in the gears but acquiring the allegiance of the Sons made up for it. Of course...that is coming from an Avatar of Tzeencht.}

[Kol Saresk]

_Question:

 

_{Powering the Golden Throne seems to be an extremely torturous process AND a permenant position, if Magnus was able to discover that was what the Emperor intended for him, wouldn't that be a wonderful motivation for him to either side with Horus or take his entire Legion and run for the deepest black? Either way the Sons are out of the game.}

And yet in the events of Betrayer/i], a full two years and change after Prospero, Magnus is still riding the fence onto whether or not to actually join the Traitors even though he has been ostracized by the Imperium.

[Wade Garrett]

Strange.

I thought by the time "Aurelian" happened he and his boys were on board with burning the Galaxy. Then again I was never able to read Aurelian so I may be way off the mark.

[Kol Saresk]

No. Like I said, Magnus is talking to the Traitors and is considering joining, and there is a scene where we see a KSon refer to the mutations as gifts, but Magnus has yet to say yes.

[DarthMarko]

Which only shows how much duchebag Magnus is....he knows Horus was behind his demise, and he goes into considiration ??? All coolhearted and very lucid...

Btw theory on "forced traitor " goes into garbage from that moment...