Baal vs Predator

[Papa Lazarou]

Hi all

 

Looking at tweaking my 1500 point list and was thinking is it really worth a extra 45 points to take a baal with TL AC & heavy bolters over the standard pred with a auto cannon with heavy bolters. Generally I will be using it as support for my jumpers and anti infantry. Is that assault cannon really worth the extra points? Yes, the baal has scout but the standard pred will have the longer range.

 

Whats everyones general opinions?

[tomjoad]

I use 2 Baals with TLAC at 1750 and would not strongly consider dropping them for a standard Predator. Baals can outflank, which is enormous. Side/rear armor is easy to target when you enter from the side so the Baal becomes a strong AT choice as well as as heck. Also, starting in reserves means it comes in, often, at the same time your DoA troops do and it mitigates the range issue.

 

Plus, saturating your opponent with AV13 vehicles is going to be hard to deal with. In so far as people are less worried about tanks these days, they will have fewer ways to deal with heavily armored tanks in particular. I have 3 AV13 vehicles at 1750 and am strongly considering making room for a 4th. That's off-topic, though...

 

So, yes, I think the Baal is well worth taking over a naked Predator because outflank is awesome and TLAC is much stronger than TL autocannon.

[Bartali]

Do you need scout ? Or are your heavy slots already full ? If so, Baal. Otherwise, AutoCannon/Heavy Bolter Pred.

[Paulochromis]

@tomjoad - how are you TL'ing the autocannon? Isn't it just 2 shots, not TL?

Whilst I agree that TLAC > 2xAutoC for rate of fire, you can't just ignore Range and Strength.

[Ushtarador]

Rending makes the TLAC clearly the superior option in my eyes, well worth the points. Also, twin-linked gives you a very reliable average of 3.5 hits per shot, as opposed to the much more luck-dependent 1.3 hits from the autocannon. Scout is also nice even if you start on the table, as it helps you get into cover outside your deployment zone. 

If I included a regular pred, it's always for the lascannon sponsons and long-range fire support, the baal is a way better option against most things.

[Jolemai]

Agreed.

 

I use an Autolas Destructor for transports and an Annihilator for Apocalypse games. Should the need arise for a "dakka-pred" I will field a Baal.

[tomjoad]

@tomjoad - how are you TL'ing the autocannon? Isn't it just 2 shots, not TL?

Whilst I agree that TLAC > 2xAutoC for rate of fire, you can't just ignore Range and Strength.

 

D'oh, of course the Autocannon is not TL'd, which makes it EVEN WORSE by comparison.

 

I think you can pretty easily disregard the range and strength for several reasons.

1) Outflanking means you'll be in range of whatever you want to be on nearly all occasions.

2) S6 and S7 are effectively the same against infantry.

3) S6 v. rear and side armor is better or the same as S7 v. front armor against almost every vehicle in the game.

4) Rending makes that S6 even better v tanks, as well as allowing more wounds on 2+ save infantry.

5) The TLAC will score about 3 times as many hits as an autocannon per turn.

[Drunken Angel]

Baals give flexibility either start on the board and scout or reserve and outflank, as mentioned the TLAC is very good as anti troop and light vehicle.  On rear armour it is very good.  It is a scoring vehicle in The scouring, fast AV13 scoring vehicle ?  whats not to like? the 120 points never take one without a dozer blade.  If you run mephiston and you probably will in a lot of games the Baal is a good tank with a 12" move to hide him behind as you move across the board.

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

One small benefit depending upon the game type roll all fast attack units can score.

[tomjoad]

Well, Heavy Support scores just as often as Fast Attack, so i can see an argument for taking even numbers of each, actually, which is the only real reason I'd consider a regular Pred.

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

In my inventory I have a Baal, a Destructor, and an Annihilator along with a LR and a LRC. The Baal I tend to take often with the HBs. I guess for a cost reduction in points, removing the HBs might be a good idea now that I think about it. Keeping the Baal as a sole tank hunter helps keep it moving around more while remaining an active thread.

 

The Baal versus the Destructor I will take the Baal. Re-rolls versus the maybe two shots is better. I usually pair the Destructor with the Annihilator for dual roll purposes. I think I am in the same boat as treating the Baal as an equal or greater than the Destructor for its added abilities.

 

I normally play 1500 point games so I am wondering what other assets the OP uses often or has access to.

 

To apply the -45 points "is it worth it" question to my current 1500 point list I use the following vehicles.

 

Bal Predator - Flanking

LR - Anti-tank roll along with transport

2 x Landspeeders w/ 2 x HBs - Anti - Infantry

Landspeeder Typhoon - Anti - Light Tank

 

 

I could drop the HBs and use a nice 45 points elsewhere. I have plenty of HB coverage elsewhere.

[Ushtarador]

I would always buy sponsons for my preds (unless the flamer baal, but that one's gimmicky anyway). We pay extra points for being a fast vehicle and being able to shoot 2 weapons and still move 12'', without sponsons the threat potential of your tank goes way down. 

Heavy bolter sponsons on a baal predator almost doubles the amount of wounds you put on infantry, and paying 70 points for a single autocannon is beyond useless.

[SamaNagol]

Auto Las Preds. Not Auto/Hvy Bolter.

 

And throw Vindicators into the mix. They are very useful now.

[IK Viper]

Point for point the HS Predator will get you more fire power, I personnally think the reason the Baal is good is because it does not compete in the heavy support slot, which in my opinion should be filled with atleast 2 Stormravens now that Hell Drakes are super good (marketting ploy by GW to sell more models) and will eat power armor almost as bad as Flamers do.

[appiah4]

The Destructor Dakka: More cost effective vs infantry
Dakka  Annihilator: The better tank hunter
Baal: good jack of all trades

Take what you will. I usually take one Baal and one TLLC+HB Predator

 

I steer away from AutoLas, I find it to be impractical. It's :cuss at shooting infantry (not enough volume of fire, not enough AP), and mediocre against armor. Sponson lascannons are difficult to aim at the same target and when you do, you often expose your flank to something else if your opponent is clever (It's something I love doing to SM players). It's also ugly as sin and dumb as :cuss (was there ever a real tank with a stronger sponson mounted gun than a turret mounted one?)

I personally love the TLLC+HB. It's not the most cost effective unit in the game, but it's a great fast tank hunter, much easier to use and hide (can fire to full effect over cover) and can also put the hurt on an infantry squad if there are no targets of opportunity (The Lascannon does kill infantry; it also instagibs MEQ and TEQ).

[Drunken Angel]

I am taking a Baal with TLAC, HB sponsons a second Baal with TLAC and hunter killer missile, 3 Attack Bikes with Multi meltas and Vindicator as well as a Storm raven to an 1850 tourney this weekend I will let you know how it goes.  Its not an optimum list for me but the meta is chaos and SW and necron heavy I will see how it goes.

In trial games I have wiped out SW long fang grey hunter/thunder wolf armies and tabled necron flyer light lists with this set up the Baals are awesome in your face on dawn of war and vanguard strike.  If you take Baals take some  good melta units or vanguard vets to balance out the lack of heavy AP1 thats all.

[Papa Lazarou]

thanks for all the replies everyone, lots of good ideas kicking around, some which I never considered. Now my theory is that I have 3 MM attack bike and a stormraven with MM and TLAC for general anti mech and MC killing, so really the pred is there to pound away at stuff from the off. So I would never use the outflank but the 45 points free would allow a drop pod for my furioso instead of having it footslogging across the board, although it did a sterling job inthe last game doing that.

Also there is a time issue to get it painted for TOS in march as I still have my furioso, 10 man assault squad and priest to finsh in time.

I must admit my baal has never once failed to perform in every game.

[tomjoad]

Why wouldn't you outflank? I've only ever started my Baals on the table once and they got fried before doing anything. Even if they hadn't been exploded, it was wrong and ineffective to start them on the table, comparatively speaking. 

[Chaplain Admetus]

Sometimes its better to have them around and not get shafted by your reserve rolls. I lost a game against nids a few weeks back because I didn't have my Baal on the table to shoot things at a critical juncture. Outflanking can work, but it doesn't need to be done every time. If they don't have the ranged stuff to reliably threaten it then start it on-table, and hide it forwards and out of sight with scout.

[Drunken Angel]

Sometimes its better to have them around and not get shafted by your reserve rolls. I lost a game against nids a few weeks back because I didn't have my Baal on the table to shoot things at a critical juncture. Outflanking can work, but it doesn't need to be done every time. If they don't have the ranged stuff to reliably threaten it then start it on-table, and hide it forwards and out of sight with scout.

 

If you run Baals and Ravens you should have a coms relay up and running the extra re-roll is very useful.  It only takes a warlord trait or a guard astropath/fleet officer to mess with your reserves and your are without your most effective models.

[Papa Lazarou]

Why wouldn't you outflank? I've only ever started my Baals on the table once and they got fried before doing anything. Even if they hadn't been exploded, it was wrong and ineffective to start them on the table, comparatively speaking.

Usually they act as a fire support base for my jumpers so I want them to cause damage from the off. If I hold it in reserve then that's a baal and a stormraven off the table so they will have minimum support before assualting, especially facing hordes. At least if the baal has caused damae then they should have a easier time. Unfortunately a comms relay is too much points wise for me to warrent at 1500k

If I played guard then yes I probably would.

[tomjoad]

Personally, I've found more success outflanking the Baals and starting 1/2 or more of my jumpers on the table, DSing usually only one assault squad (or two if I combat squad all of them).

 

If you really want to start them on the table, I'd suggest an autocannon/lascannon predator instead. Slightly more expensive than a TLAC Baal, but the shots are stronger and longer ranged. Less effective overall than an outflanked Baal, but more fitting for your strategy.