Deathwing Terminator CML with Close Combat Weapons

[The Neverborn]

As we all know in the Old Dex taking a CML with a TH/SS or LC was an old favourite, however there seems to be some confusion over weather this is allowed in the new Dex.

 

The key is in the new Dex you "replace all weapons" for a TH/SS or LC.

 

There are two ways of reading it

 

Taking a close combat option with a cyclone missile launcher is not legal because.

 

As you are replacing all weapons and a cyclone missile launcher is in every way  a "weapon" you are requried to replace it to take the close combat option. Although the rule speifically says "take" and it is physically written lower down the selection it is still not legal because -  a)The reason already stated and - b)the physical location in the book bares no reason to for it to superseed the roles before it. For example - in the Command Squad entry the order is reversed, demonstrating this is of no significance.

 

Taking a close combat option with a cyclone missile launcher is legal because.

 

The rules specically say "may take" in place of replace. All other options are different as you are replacing the storm bolter. As the cyclone missile launcher is not one of the weapons the modle starts with you may replace the starting load out then "may take" as stated in the codex a cyclone missile launcher, it does not require a model to be armed with a storm bolter like the other heavy weapons and is listed physcially after the option to replace all weapons for the close combat options.

[MadDoc]

The options lists work top down, and the melee weapon switch-out/replacement comes before the heavy weapon options.

 

Meaning swap all existing weapons for TH&SS or LCs, then moving down the list you'll find that certain options are no longer valid for such models (i.e. no power fist to replace to get a chainfist, no storm bolter to replace to get an assault cannon or heavy flamer), the Cyclone is still a valid option as its a add on (not a weapon replacement) for a Deathwing Terminator.

 

This works much in the same way that the upgrades to the various specialsts does in the various Command squads do - they come first, so if you're going to take them those models can no longer take the upgrades that are available only to their generic squadmates, in other words no finagling (or cheating if you prefer) with the options and claiming you brought an upgrade for a model before you made it an Apothecary.

[Morollan]

You might want to read http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270276-deathwing-apothecary/ before taking what MadDoc says as gospel.

[Kastor Krieg]

While I agree in principle, that the option of "may take" allows adding a CML on top of any DW TDA, what is the BRB / dex confirmation for the upgrade lists being sequential instead of simultaneous? I've always seen them interpreted (and the way you for the last paragraph suggests that, too) that the choice happen all at the same time?

[MadDoc]

You can take my logical reasoned answer, or you can go read the thread Morollan posted where several people (unsuccessfully) try using double speak to prove that their position that a DW Apothecary can take wargear that he isn't actually entitled to is somehow right.

 

Its entirely up to you.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you could look at the Ork FAQ.

[Bryan Blaire]

What does your gaming group/local store say about the issue? That's what I'd go with. For tournaments, follow what the TO says.

 

Otherwise, ask for a FAQ answer, because no one here is GW to give you an answer that will convince people everywhere, no matter how well reasoned.

[MadDoc]

Or you could look at the Ork FAQ.

Provided, of course, that you don't mind looking at something which has zero relevance to the question since its for a completely different army...

[Grey Mage]

 

Or you could look at the Ork FAQ.

Provided, of course, that you don't mind looking at something which has zero relevance to the question since its for a completely different army...

Just because GW doesnt always follow precedent doesnt mean that precedent isnt a good guideline.

[MadDoc]

Just because GW doesnt always follow precedent doesnt mean that precedent isnt a good guideline.

Given that there isn't actually a situation analogous to this one presented in the Ork FAQ there isn't actually a precedent set to follow as a guidline.

[Raeven]

While I agree in principle, that the option of "may take" allows adding a CML on top of any DW TDA, what is the BRB / dex confirmation for the upgrade lists being sequential instead of simultaneous? I've always seen them interpreted (and the way you for the last paragraph suggests that, too) that the choice happen all at the same time?

While there is no hard rule that says so, my take is that it is the safe path to follow to prevent cheating your fellow players.

 

I.e. they happen at the same time but here is an order of operations that must be followed. Like upgrading to a new stateline model or replacing equipment.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Given that there isn't actually a situation analogous to this one presented in the Ork FAQ there isn't actually a precedent set to follow as a guidline.

 

Really?

 

So in the entire rule range, the only guidline GW has given, ever, on the subject of options being taken in Codex printed order isn't relevant.

[Morollan]

 

Just because GW doesnt always follow precedent doesnt mean that precedent isnt a good guideline.

Given that there isn't actually a situation analogous to this one presented in the Ork FAQ there isn't actually a precedent set to follow as a guidline.

So because you have (completely arbitrarily) decided that options are chosen from top to bottom of the list provided everyone has to ignore a very clear position from GW that says otherwise? Okay...

[MadDoc]

So because you have (completely arbitrarily) decided that options are chosen from top to bottom of the list provided everyone has to ignore a very clear position from GW that says otherwise? Okay...

No. They should ignore fallacious claims from people saying that theres a "clear position" from GW that supports your claim, when there actually isn't one, but there is one that supports my logically reasoned method.

 

Or are we supposed to ignore the actual position from GW just because you choose to wilfully misinterpret things?

 

The facts support my position (and so does the nearest relevant precedent in the Ork FAQ), your continued refusal to acknowledge that fact changes nothing. I'm done arguing the point with someone unwilling to look at the actual facts, I have better things to do with my time.

[Grey Mage]

 

So because you have (completely arbitrarily) decided that options are chosen from top to bottom of the list provided everyone has to ignore a very clear position from GW that says otherwise? Okay...

No. They should ignore fallacious claims from people saying that theres a "clear position" from GW that supports your claim, when there actually isn't one, but there is one that supports my logically reasoned method.

 

Or are we supposed to ignore the actual position from GW just because you choose to wilfully misinterpret things?

 

The facts support my position (and so does the nearest relevant precedent in the Ork FAQ), your continued refusal to acknowledge that fact changes nothing. I'm done arguing the point with someone unwilling to look at the actual facts, I have better things to do with my time.

Both of you- stop. Now.

 

One more personal attack will result in a warning. Instead of informing each other of how much better you are there will be explanation of your points. If you cant figure out how to fully explain and preferably cite your arguments then you should refrain from making them for a week or so and cool down.

[Dam13n]

My interpretation would be that you can take the CML based on the following logic:

 

Deathwing Terminator swaps his Storm Bolter and Power Fist for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

He remains a Deathwing Terminator so is eligable to then take a CML on top of his existing wargear.

 

In the case of the Apothecary, as soon as he is upgraded to an Apothecary, the model ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator and therefore cannot take upgrades that would be available to a Deathwing Terminator.

 

I've always interpreted the unit upgrades from the perspective that Model upgrades (ie Champion/Apothecary etc.) are taken first, then weapon upgrades are bought only once all model upgrades (that you intend to take) have been taken.  Of couse the Ork FAQ disagrees with this, but the Ork codex is one of the oldest out there right now, and most certainly is neither a 6th or even 5th edition codex, so cannot be cited as definitive proof of "order of operations" (at least IMHO).

 

Now I started a Deathwing force just prior to the new codex coming out, so I have 2 Terminators with the TH/SS/CML combo, and 1 with the PoLC/CML combo.  I also have the Apothecary armed with a TH/SS (as I could in the previous codex) and the Standard Bearer armed with a TH/SS.  So I therefore have at least 1 model that is no longer legal (by my own interpretation) so it's not like I'm basing my opinion on what is entirely best for me personally.

 

I'm not expecting any/everyone to agree with me, but that's what house interpretations are for.  If there is any ambiguity, just check with your opponent before the game.  I've never had a problem, and if I did then I'd invoke the "most important rule" and abide by the result.  It is just a game after all.

 

Laterz...

[Raeven]

Check the other thread. The Ork FAQ does actually support your argument that model upgrades come first and then only allowing wargear specifically listed for the new model type.

[Dam13n]

Raeven - Just double checked the Ork FAQ, you're right, it implies Model Upgrade -> Character Upgrade(s) -> Squad Upgrade(s) as opposed to Model -> Squad -> Character.  Although there's nothing to say that you couldn't do the latter sequence of upgrades (although in the Ork case, taking the shoota would prevent you taking any Character upgrades because there would be no choppa to replace).

 

It's been a while since I've had to read the Ork FAQ (very few people other than some beginners play them where I live, and I don't play the beginners (it feels like hitting a puppy when I table them by turn 3, :-P ))

 

Laterz...