The Fail of My Daemon Prince is Now Complete.

[Prot]

So as you may have noted in a few threads I've been trying hard to make a go of Chaos again.... I gave up after the first month or two, and although I feel the codex missed on a lot of levels, it does have some offerings that make me think it could work.

 

Previous to my latest attempt with it I had ONE list that worked. It had a risk element to it, but it could (on a good night) beat a really good number of the armies you see a lot of -netlists- on.

 

BUT this time I said -enough- of Huron and flanking Termies, and I kept reading about the different configs of Daemon Princes. I originally made my own with a Murder Sword feeling it was sufficient and with the challenge burden it would inevitably help me go after my opponent's warlord.

 

Most people seem to be in love with the Black Mace, so that's what I went with.. .Mark of Tzeentch, wings, armor, etc. In a 1500 point game this is quite a chunk of points putting him up there with Abe. Perhaps my greatest concern was this Mace is a 'Daemon Weapon'. My local nickname is Snake Eyes, because I truly roll an incredible amount of ones. (this is why I love Wolf banners!)

 

So I went with this config, and decided I had to go after some Tervigons and try to stop the bleeding I was experiencing from all these termagants..... My Daemon Prince comes roaring in, lands on a Tervigon, and proceeds to roll a one, wounding himself. This reminded me of why I stopped using the Khorn Daemon Axe in 5th edition.... it was all flashing before my eyes.

 

In the next turn my Deamon Prince was gone without taking victim with him.

 

Typically I've always hated expensive HQ's in my games, but this guy gets a lot of positive response..... also I had a 3 warp charge Sorc and I don't think I'd do that again either. As I've said, I'm trying 'new' things instead of my same old lists, but I can't say I'm sold on the Daemon Prince... especially at 1500pts.

 

So what's your take on this guy? I know that some people will say 'yea I had this game where he killed Mephiston 7 times over'.... but is he really the best HQ? Is it perhaps better to take a Murder Sword? Forgo the D6 extra attacks and the chance at killing yourself?

 

 

[nurglez]

The prince is too expensive at the moment to be used, especially as he is still only a t5 3+/5++ MC. Tyranids dont do great with T6 MC's, the only advantage we have is an invulnerable save, if the prince unlocked cult troops then I might use one more often, but it means if I want to run my plagues I need to pay an extra 80-100 points on top of the prince.

 

I did try out a 345ish point prince, mk tzeentch, black mace, wings, power armour, 3 psychic powers and he did quite well, smash attacking the hell out of anything in his way, but the threat of my opponent's lone demolisher really worried me, and I don't like that feeling at all.

 

a murder sword seems pointless on the prince, as you are already ap2 and can smash attack, halving your attacks to hit at str10.

 

If you constantly roll 1's, then don't take a daemon weapon. A prince without can still wreck face.

[Shuggnuggath]

A prince without weapon upgrades works fine. Wings and power armour are the two most important investments. 

[Excessus]

So the DP didn't do anything with the 6 AP2 Cursed Fleshbane attacks he still got that turn then? And the next turn he was gone...before he got to hit with his initiative 8?

 

Rolling a 1 is nowhere near as bad as it was in the last codex...

[Prot]

AH! It appears I did it wrong.... I used my extensive knowledge of Gav-dex to screw myself. Ugh. I used the last edition rules for my Daemon Weapon.

 

No matter, while he died an inglorious death, it felt quite expensive for a 1500pt army. However, I had no real luck since I took on a Tervigon, and then was rushed by a second Tervigon, and died the turn after I rushed in. :)

[Brother Ambroz]

Prot you do realize even with a one you still roll your attacks? So he still would've had a fair amount of fleshbane attacks and if you were able to challenge out one of the MCs that should've reduced the Nid rebuttal by quite a bit. I still haven't used a DP yet this edition but I've used an AOBF which has worked pretty well for me, even when I roll a 1 he usually still kills a few marines.

 

With a Sorceror, especially ML 3, you really have to build the rest of your list around it. For example if you're taking a MoS one, you'd wanna try to synergize with NMs. Or a Telepathy biker sorc, Bio biker sorc for examples.

[Prot]

Yea, I did it wrong. I didn't take any attacks. So I could have had some attacks.. mind you hitting on '5' with WS 1.... still I don't think he would have done much else. He got hammered pretty good.

 

The Sorc was pretty expensive. I wanted to have fun.... so I took 3 charges of Slaanesh abilities and put him with a 20 man cultist squad to prop their leadership. It was a bad idea. The buffs were 'ok', and the only use I got out of him really was the spammy shots on large gant squads (Ecstatic Seizures).

 

I don't think I'd take the sorc again.... I know a lot of people use Telepathy but although invisibility is good, I find Puppet Master (?) to be really hard to actually use to effect (focused Witchfire).

 

A rhino blew up with 10 marines in it... I lost 4 marines in the blast and 9 of my 20 cultists in the blast. The game was nasty like that.

[Glaeken Templaris]

Ive found that a dp w/ PA mot and blackmace is rather formidable. had a game the other week and he was charged by st celestine and a squad of 5 serephim. his hammer of wrath attacks did nothing, then i retorted with killing celestine and 2 of her bods (damn inv saves) then the rest failed toughness saves and died in agony frm the curse hehe. didnt bother with wings as i was rocking my heldrake and didnt have the points for them.

[TheDarkOne]

I'm a big fan of the Black Mace DP, and I think that you're right MoT is the way to go, re rolling failed saves of 1 is probably the best 'Demon of' bonus there is... since MoN doesn't grant him T6.

 

The black mace is an amazing thing, I prefer to launch him into hordes with it, hopefully annihilating a huge amount of models with the 'cursed' rule. 

 

It always sucks to roll a one, try him again before you write him off. 

 

One trick I've used with my DP in the past is to give him Gift of chaos (he doesn't get to roll otherwise), and if he's already really expensive what is another point? 

 

I've gotten lucky with GoC and he's been Eternal Warrior one game, +1T another, which are both stellar! but its only 2/36 chance...

 

Starting him walking hidden on the ground is not a bad plan, then he begins swooping and rushes towards the enemy, hopefully not getting killed.

 

I avoid putting psychic powers on him, too expensive, and makes him an even bigger target.

[Excessus]

You can only take an amount of powers equalling a maximum of half of the sorcerer's level from the dedicated lists, so for a lvl 3 sorcerer a max number of two slaanesh spells could be rolled, not three.

You should try a lvl 3 unmarked biomancy or telepathy sorcerer, they are miracleworkers!

[Prot]

Ok, well I don't think I'd take any Chaos powers again for the Sorc. I really just wanted to try for fun, and I'm not sure I'd take a sorc again either to be honest. Telepathy is a little dicey. I mean 'Focused Witchfire' is REALLY hard to pull off.... but Invisibility is nice.

 

I had the sorc baby sitting the Cultists. This was a bad idea. In the past when I've done this it's been with a bare bones sorc just for leadership and one ability a turn. But again this was a test to really get a feel for what a 3 warp charge, 'chaosy' sorc could do. Perhaps in my Huron list he would be better, infiltrating with a squad of Termies and Huron (although I don't think I could buff the turn the arrive? Can I?)

 

But I'm trying to get away from my Huron lists. So I might try the DP one more time.... ditch the other HQ all together. Perhaps go with Cult Troops: IE Deathguard.... I really have had bad luck with basic marines... , the lack of TSKNF and fearless.

[Brother Ambroz]

Why wouldn't you be able to buff the turn you come in?

 

If ya take plagues though Prot you'll have to include a MoN chaos lord. Then you've gotta figure out something to do with said chaos lord to make him effective and oftentimes that'll mean taking an escort.....

[minigun762]

What about a wingless power armor demon of Slaanesh? Similar to a keeper of secrets.

[Prot]

Why wouldn't you be able to buff the turn you come in?

 

If ya take plagues though Prot you'll have to include a MoN chaos lord. Then you've gotta figure out something to do with said chaos lord to make him effective and oftentimes that'll mean taking an escort.....

Yea, buffing would work coming in from reserves... just had a brain fart. But that's right, I would need to dump the Daemon Prince to get Deathguard as troops. I'm just finding a real problem having using troops I like at 1500. I'm leaning towards Deathguard or World Eaters. I haven't tried Deathguard this edition, but I have tried World Eaters and haven't been too impressed. I guess they are more cost efficient though, and Khârn is an easy HQ to include in an army I suppose.....

 

What about a wingless power armor demon of Slaanesh? Similar to a keeper of secrets.

Hmmm... gotta be honest I find the wings seem pretty important. It was the only part of him I truly found effective (precision striking his Tervigons... even if I did bounce).

 

Otherwise I'd probably just do a cheapo lord, or perhaps a bike lord?

[the jeske]

footslogging single MC with t5 and +3sv ? that is one turn of LF saturation .

[khurdur]

lads I play a nurgle or tzeentch DP, with black mace, gift of mutation, spell familiar and 3 lvls of magic, 2 of which are biomancy and he tends to smash face.

All of biomancy is pretty good for him, FNP, iron arm, warp speed are all great. With the spell familiar he should always get his spells off.
The only real threat is when I charge a unit, smash it up in one turn and next turn I'm facing all his guns.

 

Against 'nids, the only really scary thing is two hive tyrants with double devourers each, they can shoot him down, but unless he rolls a 1 in cc he can kill anything they have

 

he's gonna be expensive anyway, may as well go the whole hog and likely get iron arm and re-rolling psychic poweers to be sure you won't fluff anything...

[minigun762]

I see the value in wings. I guess I'm just looking at alternatives that fix the usual complaints about expense and grounding tests.

[Aidoneus]

I've been running the typical DoT, Wings, PA, Black Mace prince along with 2 Heldrakes. I put them all in reserves flying in from my board edge. That usually gives me 2-3 vector strikes the turn they come in, along with the shooting from the drakes, and of course the rest of my army. Suddenly, it's a lot harder for the opponent to focus-fire on my prince, and he's only been required to make just a couple grounding tests so far, over the course of several games. That means that on turn 3 (4 if you're stuck in reserves an extra turn), he's usually swopping in to assault whatever he wants at full strength. Even when he does roll a 1, he still wrecks face. And really, you shouldn't base your opinion of him on 1 game where he rolled a 1 one time, and you forgot he could still attack. That's not a fair representation of what he can do at all.

Granted, it all depends on the rest of your list. I am in love with daemon engines, so my list includes as many as I can get my hands on. Although helbrutes and defilers have some CC ability, I really do rely on the DP to do the lion's share of my melee for me. On the other hand, if the rest of your list is more CC-oriented, maybe the costly DP isn't necessary for you.

[Prot]

Absolutely. Some of my opinion was based on my misunderstanding of the nwe Daemon rule. Still trying to make sure he makes sense at a whopping 260ish points. ;)

[minigun762]

As a sidenote Prot, I wouldn't ever use the Murder Sword on a demon prince. You're already AP2 so the occasional AP1 isn't of limited value. Same with the 2x strength.

 

It's... acceptable on a Chaos lord at best.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah Prot Aidoneus really hit the nail on the head there. Can't just base it off one game and now that you understand the new Daemon weapon rules your next game might go a bit better! Give him another shot and hopefully this time he'll do a bit better.

On the murder sword....it's really not acceptable at all, its basically an overpriced power sword. Only one turn (possibly) as AP1 x2 strength and that's if your opponent is dumb enough to let that character get into CC with your own character. Much better off going with one of the daemon weapons on a prince and on a lord a daemon weapon or fist/claw. Only way I can see it is in fluff games....but even then it feels like giving your opponent an advantage. Then again we have alot of things like that in our codex.

[jansuza]

I'll be the first to admit that the prince is really expensive, but I still think he's worth it. I run my prince with wings, armour, mace, gift and MoN, and he's 275 points. Only in my 1850+ games can I really justify it, but he's killed more than his points nearly every time, and he doubles as an area-denial unit, because things tend to stay away from the prince if they can help it.

 

I like the MoN on him, despite the massive drawback of not being able to sweep due to slow and purposeless. I normally fly him into terrain in the middle of the table first turn. It means that while he's flying high, he still has a 2+ cover for the most part, and if he gets struck down, he still has an above-average chance of surviving. The fact that he can't sweep is a big one, as his I8 would normally make him ideal for just such a thing, but my prince normally goes after deathstars and the like who are often fearless anyway.

 

I must say I don't see the point in taking powers on the prince. It makes him ludicrously expensive, and most of the powers simply make him better in CC, which the Prince has no need for. I have yet to have anything threaten my prince in CC properly, other than grey knights!

[Prot]

Yeah Prot Aidoneus really hit the nail on the head there. Can't just base it off one game and now that you understand the new Daemon weapon rules your next game might go a bit better! Give him another shot and hopefully this time he'll do a bit better.

 

On the murder sword....it's really not acceptable at all, its basically an overpriced power sword. Only one turn (possibly) as AP1 x2 strength and that's if your opponent is dumb enough to let that character get into CC with your own character. Much better off going with one of the daemon weapons on a prince and on a lord a daemon weapon or fist/claw. Only way I can see it is in fluff games..... 

 

Well his performance in my game was obviously subpar, but you have to remember I've been playing a lot of 'basic' HQ combo's for a long time. So while I can see it's possible he's going to earn his points back, it's not likely in most games.

 

So what I personally do is look at the direct results of taking an expensive HQ. IE. What is he going to kill? Then I look at the 'force multiplier' factor. If he's not killing a lot, what is he doing for my army? Does he lend tactics? Does he allow my army to function a certain way?

 

Typically we play 1500 points over here, and in most tournaments. So historically I've always gone with dirt cheap HQ's and if they even -start- to get expensive I look for Force Multiplier factors... Huron is a great example of this. His ability to earn his points back directly is quite decent. Even so I particularly love his secondary ability, not to mention the 'bonus' that may come from the Hamidraya.  When you look at these factors even in games where Huron doesn't fill his boots with the blood of others, his special ability could and often is a factor.

 

The thing about the murder sword... one thing I truly despise in this codex is the challenge rule. But I've moaned about it, and shown its negatives in example for entire threads so I don't want to get into it here, but as a result I now look for characters that play into this 'negative'. Perhaps Lucius is the king of this? I don't know, but it felt like the Murder Sword would be a possibility. (often thought of a Slaanesh Lord on a bike with murder sword for this reason... can't really hide from it.)

 

It might just be that at 1500 it's really hard to get a 260 point-ish HQ in there.  I just really like the 'toys' so I typically save those points for the man power in other areas of the list.

 

 

I've been running the typical DoT, Wings, PA, Black Mace prince along with 2 Heldrakes.

 

Granted, it all depends on the rest of your list. I am in love with daemon engines, so my list includes as many as I can get my hands on. Although helbrutes and defilers have some CC ability, I really do rely on the DP to do the lion's share of my melee for me. On the other hand, if the rest of your list is more CC-oriented, maybe the costly DP isn't necessary for you.

 

Are you doing that in 1500 pts? What kind of troops are you fitting into that?

 

The part you mention about the daemon engines.... see I looked at all that stuff from the pictures and thought 'Cool! I can't wait to try that stuff'. Then I saw it was all AV12 and reliant on Deamon saves and I've very rarely put the odd Forgefiend in my list.

 

But as I am now forcing myself to use new stuff, I would love to try spamming the Daemon Engine stuff... Maulerfied and Forgefiend, even the Helbrute.... and if this is the case, perhaps I need to lay off of all the other toys, and although I'm still not sure what to use for troops in this case, I'm thinking the Daemon Prince would be THE only real CC threat in such a list (aside from walkers as you note are somewhat capable.)

[Brother Ambroz]

Oh yeah definitely Prot. DPs really have no place in lists below 2000 points I'm sorry to say. I think it depends on whether or not your opponent focus fires on them, that really makes the difference in whether they make their points back or not. They'll easily take down multiple squads though, bad rolling or not. In those smaller games though I think you are better of with Huron, a juggerlord, MoS brand lord or something like that.

[the jeske]

 

(often thought of a Slaanesh Lord on a bike with murder sword for this reason... can't really hide from it.)

dont accept challange , move at initiative step when it is impossible to be in base to base . if there is no biker champion alive challange yourself with your sgt , etc. What else . ah .. move just as fast as a bike or sit in a transport. Be deadlier in melee then the mos lord . countless ways to hide from a mos biker lord.