The Fail of My Daemon Prince is Now Complete.

[Prot]

 

 

(often thought of a Slaanesh Lord on a bike with murder sword for this reason... can't really hide from it.)

dont accept challange , move at initiative step when it is impossible to be in base to base . if there is no biker champion alive challange yourself with your sgt , etc. What else . ah .. move just as fast as a bike or sit in a transport. Be deadlier in melee then the mos lord . countless ways to hide from a mos biker lord.

 

 

 

If you want to get really silly about it, you can hide your HQ by keeping him reserve as long as possible and when he comes in you can deep strike him off the edge of the table or something. How goofy can this get? Of course you 'can' hide.... but often to your own detriment.The theory here is you ( as a chaos player)  have to challenge, so the theory is why not take a guy who is going to be really good at it?

[the jeske]

dude I dont do silly. you on the other hand seem to have this odd idea that your opponent is going to charge at your MS armed HQ and challange him . now that is goofy . I just listed you few of the things that make the sword suck hard and it is just general stuff , not army specific .like how to kill HQ X in a guard army , when there is 3-4 vet sgts to kill first . Or when your opponent is necron accepts your MS goes over 9k in power and his mindshakles kick in and your HQ is hiting himself with str 10 on the head.

 

a murder sword does not make a lord or a dp good at challanges . its a high cost power sword and in the case of a DP you may as well not take it at all , because your already hiting at ap2. there is tons of ways to avoid it without losing your own HQ potential and in one rare case your opponent will actualy want you to challange him .

[Aidoneus]

Prot, I typically run 1750 or 1850pts. My current Daemon Engine list is here (although I think I'm going to replace 1 baleflamer with a hades for AA support). As you can see, it's quite an extreme build.

 

The thing about daemon engines is that they're a lot harder to kill you might think. AV 12 isn't great, but it's decent. On top of that, they tend to have a lot of hull points, they have a 5++ save, and they have It Will Not Die. In an environment where people are trying to kill vehicles by stripping hull points, that all adds up to quite a lot of durability for an AV12 chassis.

 

As with all vehicles, they definitely get a lot better when you take more. Target saturation is huge. In my list, I leave the 3 fliers in reserve, as well as the two rhinos (and sometimes bikers, depending on the mission). Even when everything is on the table, I have nothing without an armor value. That means all the enemy anti-infantry weapons are basically useless. And my offense is strong enough (and targetable enough, with the flyers) that by the time my rhinos trundle on they're usually pretty safe. I'm not saying it's a great list, but it's a lot better than you might think if you only think about it as the sum of its parts. And it's a hell of a lot of fun to play!

 

Back to the prince question, I too know the value of dirt-cheap HQs, and you might very well be right that as low as 1500pts the DP simply isn't worth it. I think you should give him another shot, but don't be surprised if he never has enough impact to justify him at those points. I use him to deal with problems the rest of my army can't, such as terminators, and to wipe units off of objectives. If you don't need a 265pt monster to do that for you, by all means don't take one.

[Xthanitos]

The Murder Sword is the best Daemon Weapon by far if you are facing against the Swarm Lord, its not bad against Mephaeston either. 

 

Personally I use a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with Armour, Wings, three Mastery Levels, Gift of Mutation and The Black Mace.

 

He has a lot of damage potential. But he costs so much, if he dies without doing much it puts me at a big disadvantage. 

 

Some armies he will wreck unit after unit. Some armies (Dark Eldar for example), he will probably be shot to death quite easily. Even if he is T8 with Iron Arm.

[Ammonius]

The Murder Sword is the best Daemon Weapon by far if you are facing against the Swarm Lord, its not bad against Mephaeston either. 

 

Personally I use a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with Armour, Wings, three Mastery Levels, Gift of Mutation and The Black Mace.

 

He has a lot of damage potential. But he costs so much, if he dies without doing much it puts me at a big disadvantage. 

 

Some armies he will wreck unit after unit. Some armies (Dark Eldar for example), he will probably be shot to death quite easily. Even if he is T8 with Iron Arm.

Remember, the Murder Sword is not a Daemon Weapon, and does not get the Daemon Weapon rule.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Murder sword is ONLY good against its target, when a Dp with Black Mace, is good Vs EVERYHTING.

 

Always wounds on 2+, Can insta kill models, even if they are Eternal Warrior, and can kill people around it.

 

Murder Sword don't work against Eternal Warrior models, and lets face it there is a few of those...

[the jeske]

 

 In an environment where people are trying to kill vehicles by stripping hull points, that all adds up to quite a lot of durability for an AV12 chassis.

I am sorry but that is true for only necrons . all imperials who can use IG and IG themselfs go with kill av13-14 . Maybe 5th ed lists used in 6th do that , but trying to hull point a necron army or IG av14 wall +flyers is doomed from the start. Most chaos stuff runs melta bikers and oblits to kill tanks , not hull point them . chaos builds that try to go havocks will always struggle , making them less optimal to use.

 

 

 

That means all the enemy anti-infantry weapons are basically useless.

And my offense is strong enough (and targetable enough, with the flyers)

that by the time my rhinos trundle on they're usually pretty safe. I'm

not saying it's a great list, but it's a lot better than you might think

if you only think about it as the sum of its parts.

I have a question how offten do people you play against face necron or IG , because from what your writing down [av12 and 3 flyers overloading their  anti tank ability] it seems that lists with 4-5 flyers and/or 3/4 av13+ would be impossible to beat for them ?

[Xthanitos]

Ah yes I should have proof read that post of mine, it isn't a Daemon Weapon. But that is one of its perks.

 

The Murder Sword won't make your Daemon Prince an easy target whenever you roll a 1 for Daemon Weapon.

 

To justify his steep points cost he really needs to be destroying expensive or particularly dangerous enemy units, because we all know soaking up enemy fire is not his strong point.

 

One in six times he will roll a 1 and probably get beaten to a pulp. I've lost count how many times my 360 point Daemon Prince has gone from full Wounds to 0 in one round of combat because of that damned Daemon Weapon.

 

Of course The Black Mace can be awesome for Smashing stuff with. Since you half your base Attacks then add the extra D6 Attacks. Can be great for annoying units like Grotesques (of which someone in my area has 18 in a 1500 point army), Ogryns, or any T5 multiple Wound models. 

[Prot]

Prot, I typically run 1750 or 1850pts. My current Daemon Engine list is here (although I think I'm going to replace 1 baleflamer with a hades for AA support). As you can see, it's quite an extreme build.

 

The thing about daemon engines is that they're a lot harder to kill you might think. AV 12 isn't great, but it's decent. On top of that, they tend to have a lot of hull points, they have a 5++ save, and they have It Will Not Die. In an environment where people are trying to kill vehicles by stripping hull points, that all adds up to quite a lot of durability for an AV12 chassis.

 

As with all vehicles, they definitely get a lot better when you take more. Target saturation is huge. In my list, I leave the 3 fliers in reserve, as well as the two rhinos (and sometimes bikers, depending on the mission). Even when everything is on the table, I have nothing without an armor value. That means all the enemy anti-infantry weapons are basically useless. And my offense is strong enough (and targetable enough, with the flyers) that by the time my rhinos trundle on they're usually pretty safe. I'm not saying it's a great list, but it's a lot better than you might think if you only think about it as the sum of its parts. And it's a hell of a lot of fun to play!

 

Back to the prince question, I too know the value of dirt-cheap HQs, and you might very well be right that as low as 1500pts the DP simply isn't worth it. I think you should give him another shot, but don't be surprised if he never has enough impact to justify him at those points. I use him to deal with problems the rest of my army can't, such as terminators, and to wipe units off of objectives. If you don't need a 265pt monster to do that for you, by all means don't take one.

 

Yea, I can see that. In any list that I've tried having some fun with the Fiends/Walkers, etc. I'm always trying to field as many as I can in 1500. There's no doubt it makes things very challenging. Because glancing is so potent now, even 'so-so' strength Nids were giving me issues on some of the junkier vehicles I have fielded.  They do seem pretty fun when I've take them.... it just feels like you're hinging a lot on that Daemon 5++.

 

dude I dont do silly. you on the other hand seem to have this odd idea that your opponent is going to charge at your MS armed HQ and challange him . now that is goofy

 

Unfortunately this first sentence tells me you don't understand my point of view of making sure a Chaos character is going to be very good at making/accepting challenges. Therefore, I can't respond to this.

 

The Murder Sword is the best Daemon Weapon by far if you are facing against the Swarm Lord, its not bad against Mephaeston either. 

 

Personally I use a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with Armour, Wings, three Mastery Levels, Gift of Mutation and The Black Mace.

 

He has a lot of damage potential. But he costs so much, if he dies without doing much it puts me at a big disadvantage. 

 

Some armies he will wreck unit after unit. Some armies (Dark Eldar for example), he will probably be shot to death quite easily. Even if he is T8 with Iron Arm.

 

I agree. Some of my most common opponents play Swamlord, and Mephiston. Typically I have to make darn sure I can shoot the bejesus out of those guys because I normally take soft HQ's. The Murder sword on a mounted Slaanesh Lord could change that. There are some other nasty characters out there in that same category. SInce most of my Chaos armies are hiding from challenges, it would be nice to try a list that has a character that is -looking- for a good challenge rather than avoiding them at all costs.  I haven't tried this yet though, so I'm just theorycrafting. I think he'd still be cheaper than a Daemon Prince and the benefit would be he'd unlock dual Blastmaster Noise Marine squads as troops (something I've been wanting to try since the FAQ.)

[Brother Ambroz]

You're still better off not taking any weapon at all on a prince instead of the murder sword. You're paying a bunch of extra points for a power sword.....the DP is already AP 2. When you take the murder sword, your opponents are always either going to stay away from you so they don't lose their expensive character or they will steer right at you because their character will beat the DP to a pulp. Against the swarmlord or meph? With the black mace, you're still hitting on 3+ usually, wounding on 2+ and getting D6 + your normal attacks. Chances are you'll kill them really quickly regardless with that.

[Xthanitos]

I seriously doubt you will kill the Swarm Lord with the Black Mace. Lets say you get a 6 on your Daemon Weapon. That is 12 Attacks if you Charge. 9 Hits (assuming you are lucky and either get +1 WS from your Boon roll or Hatred from either the Boon roll or your Warlord Trait.

 

That is an average of 8 Wounds (its actually a fraction but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt), the Swarm Lord has a 4+ Invulnerable and so takes 4 Wounds, leaving him with 1.

 

He'll more than likely pass his Toughness Test (one in six chance to fail).

 

In return he only has to Wound you once to inflict Instant Death. And you must reroll successful Invulnerable Saves.

 

Whereas the Murder Sword you get 3 Hits, 2 Wounds (giving the Swarm Lord the benefit of the doubt), he fails one and dies from Instant Death before he can strike. 

 

And against Mephaeston if you roll a 1 for your Daemon Weapon you will on average inflict 3 Wounds (its actually a fraction but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt). And he will probably kill you with his Force Weapon or the Strength 10 Psychic Power.

 

 

Sure The Black Mace is better in most cases, but do not discount the Murder Sword completely.

[Brother Ambroz]

So tailoring to fight the swarmlord now? If you are fighting the swarmlord, simply shoot him first then have the DP finish it off. Meph as long as you don't roll a 1 is as good as dead. Take the super expensive power sword if you want, just trying to help out.

[Hazath]

Murdersword may still not be enough against swarm lord, since swarm lord can always have paraoxysm and may have iron arm or warp speed. And it also has 4++ Inv saves. If it survives, it will insta-gibb the DP.

 

If exclusive character hunting is really necessary, I would just put murder sword to lord instead of DP...

[Kol Saresk]

If exclusive character hunting is really necessary, I would just put murder sword to lord instead of DP...

But the Smash would make it an AP2 powersword right? On the lord it would still be AP3. Great against anything that doesn't have 2+, but after that your Lord is just hoping and praying unless you are fighting that one character.

[Hazath]

 

If exclusive character hunting is really necessary, I would just put murder sword to lord instead of DP...

But the Smash would make it an AP2 powersword right? On the lord it would still be AP3. Great against anything that doesn't have 2+, but after that your Lord is just hoping and praying unless you are fighting that one character.

If you will use smashing with DP, why take murdersword at all?

 

After killing the target(or not yet reached the target):

 

For Lord, its still gonna be a powersword.

 

For Prince, who already has AP2 attacks, its gonna be nothing. Not even count as extra CCW. Utterly useless.

[Kol Saresk]

Why bother taking the Black Mace?

 

For the Lord it will still be an AP4 Daemon Weapon. For the Prince who has AP2 it will almost be useless. Can't even count as an extra CCW.

[minigun762]

Why bother taking the Black Mace?

 

For the Lord it will still be an AP4 Daemon Weapon. For the Prince who has AP2 it will almost be useless. Can't even count as an extra CCW.

 

You take the mace on the prince so that you get the benefit of smash. AP2 fleshbane demon weapon with a death bubble isn't a bad thing.

[Kol Saresk]

I was being sarcastic. I am fully aware that the Daemon weapon which needs a toughness test to be failed for its primary side effect to work and then another toughness test to be failed for its secondary work can do some damage. But then again so can Strength x2 AP1 Instant Death. So what if it's a one-shot use? Aren't we still saying Chosen and Terminators are only good for one round of combat? Might as well be consistent throughout the entire army.

[Hazath]

Why bother taking the Black Mace?

 

For the Lord it will still be an AP4 Daemon Weapon. For the Prince who has AP2 it will almost be useless. Can't even count as an extra CCW.

 

I...what?

 

Was that sarcacism even necessary?

 

You pointed out that Murder Sword becomes AP2 powersword. Well it doesn't. Its just a normal AP3 Powersword. But since DP has it,  it is same as not having it after losing its special effect.

 

And as for one-shot arguement..... If its gonna be one use character killing, why not use a lord who is lot cheaper and likely to bring same results with mark of slaanesh.

[the jeske]

 

 So what if it's a one-shot use?

the fact that for a DP the mace is not one shot and that if the lord ever runs in to a +2armored tank he will be locked in melee .

 

 

 

Aren't we still saying Chosen and Terminators are only good for one round of combat?

no to the first one[they are never good] and no[because termis are good longer then one turn of being plasma platforms. a power sword armed hq can be ignored 6-8 terminators with axs and maces can not].

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Why bother taking the Black Mace?

 

For the Lord it will still be an AP4 Daemon Weapon. For the Prince who has AP2 it will almost be useless. Can't even count as an extra CCW.

I...what?

 

Was that sarcacism even necessary?

 

You pointed out that Murder Sword becomes AP2 powersword. Well it doesn't. Its just a normal AP3 Powersword. But since DP has it, it is same as not having it after losing its special effect.

 

And as for one-shot arguement..... If its gonna be one use character killing, why not use a lord who is lot cheaper and likely to bring same results with mark of slaanesh.

So you're saying that the smash rule makes the Black Mace AP2 but doesn't do the same for the Murdersword? How does that work exactly?

[Brother Ambroz]

It does for the Murdersword as well but what's the point? You're already AP2 and the DP will likely kill whatever the target character is even without double strength, AP 1 and instant death. For a unit that's already 200+ points, why add extra stuff like a semi useless powersword?

[Aidoneus]

Saresk, forgive me if I'm wrong, but your comments make it sound like you don't realize that all attacks from monstrous creatures are always AP2. Whether the prince is weaponless, armed with an AP4 mace, an AP3 sword, or an AP2 axe, he will always strike at AP2. That's why the black mace is so amazing on a prince, because its biggest downside (only AP4) is irrelevant on the monstrous creature.

[Kol Saresk]

Tanith Ghost, on 17 Feb 2013 - 21:47, said:It does for the Murdersword as well but what's the point? You're already AP2 and the DP will likely kill whatever the target character is even without double strength, AP 1 and instant death. For a unit that's already 200+ points, why add extra stuff like a semi useless powersword?

Ah. I got confused by the:

QuoteYou pointed out that Murder Sword becomes AP2 powersword. Well it doesn't. Its just a normal AP3 Powersword. But since DP has it, it is same as not having it after losing its special effect.

But likely isn't guaranteed. Then again, neither is the Black Mace. So your choices become AoE death bubble witht he ability to remove any model in CC that takes an Unsaved Wound and fails a Toughness Test or the ability to kill one character. Prot expressed curiosity in the Murdersword. Since he already knows what it does, I'm pretty sure that means he also knows what it doesn't do. So his choices become the ability to kill the HQ or the ability to kill his army with a possibility of killing/removing the HQ.But simply saying that something does nothing when it does do something isn't exactly accurate. Now if it were to be said that "Yes, the Murdersword does virtually guarantee the death of one named character but there is a high probability that you won't get to use it if the other player keeps their HQ away from you or they decide to simply shoot yours down. But in terms of overall gameplay, the Murdersword would be largely ineffective as Smash only makes it an AP2 Powersword, which is not special on its own."But I first responded to the comment:

QuoteIf exclusive character hunting is really necessary, I would just put murder sword to lord instead of DP...

So your choices in whether the DP or the Lord takes the Murdersword, I'd stick the Murdersword on the DP and take an AoBF on the Lord. That way both have AP2 weapons, regardless of the situation and Prot can still have his Murdersword. Granted, this does raise the cost of the HQ units quite a bit. Assuming that he takes two HQs. But that way Prot can have his Murdersword that can survive a challenge with the opponent's named HQ and actually have another AP2 attacks Lord running around on say a bike, or Juggernaut to slaughter the army.

Saresk, forgive me if I'm wrong, but your comments make it sound like you don't realize that all attacks from monstrous creatures are always AP2. Whether the prince is weaponless, armed with an AP4 mace, an AP3 sword, or an AP2 axe, he will always strike at AP2. That's why the black mace is so amazing on a prince, because its biggest downside (only AP4) is irrelevant on the monstrous creature.

 

If exclusive character hunting is really necessary, I would just put murder sword to lord instead of DP...

But the Smash would make it an AP2 powersword right? On the lord it would still be AP3. Great against anything that doesn't have 2+, but after that your Lord is just hoping and praying unless you are fighting that one character.

No, I am fully aware of that. That's why I was saying that it would make the Murdersword an AP2 Powersword when it wasn't using that one ability because if I read the rules debate correctly, the AP1 would supersede the AP2 in that one challenge, the rest of the time it would be an AP2 sword. If it doesn't then there is still the gain of S x2 and Instant Death.I am fully aware that the Black Mace becomes amazing when attached to a Black Prince. However, it was suggested that the Murdersword should go on the Lord instead of the daemon prince. Personally, since the Daemon Prince makes it AP2, I would put the sword on the DP and then put an AP2 weapon on the Lord. That way both get AP2.

[Hazath]

IMO, Black Mace DP just as capable as MurderSword DP in character slaying as well, with tons of smash attacks and fleshbane, even without instant kill perk.

 

And against characters with eternal warrior, DP Black Mace will definitely outperform DP Murdersword.