Assault Marines... Without Jump packs?

[Bryan Blaire]

Once, before the 50+ specialized CCW squad proliferation in all the different Codexes, the Assault Squad was actually a pretty good CC option. Now...

[Brother Immolator]

Once, before the 50+ specialized CCW squad proliferation in all the different Codexes, the Assault Squad was actually a pretty good CC option. Now...

 

Problem is assault marines were never a specialised CC unit. At best they were (and are)a tar pit. They were mobile tacs with a single more attack and without bolters. So meh even back there.

Even in the days that CC was king vanilla jump packers (or DA ones) couldnt compete with true CC units: Berzerkers, Blood Angels, Black templar crusaders, warrior + level of tyranids, Orks and so on and so on (I wont even dare throw terminators in the table). Against guard and tau yes (at least they dont field Ogrins, even they could club them down).

 

Now you have the option of the flamer squad, but even that is a bit meh compared to other options.

[Bryan Blaire]

Back in the day before most of that you named, Brother Immolator. :D Tau weren't even a thought in anyone's mind when an Assault squad would chew threw Gretchin to get at the Orks they were shielding, etc. The Black Templars were still a Codex form Chapter then. I remember Khorne Berserkers being better, but not the slaughterers of Assault Marines they'd be now.

 

At one point, they weren't a bad choice. Then the game expanded and changed and the Assault Squad wasn't changed to keep up, it was left behind in favor of even more specialized CC units...

[Spaced Hulk]

 

Once, before the 50+ specialized CCW squad proliferation in all the different Codexes, the Assault Squad was actually a pretty good CC option. Now...

 

Problem is assault marines were never a specialised CC unit. At best they were (and are)a tar pit. They were mobile tacs with a single more attack and without bolters. So meh even back there.

Even in the days that CC was king vanilla jump packers (or DA ones) couldnt compete with true CC units: Berzerkers, Blood Angels, Black templar crusaders, warrior + level of tyranids, Orks and so on and so on (I wont even dare throw terminators in the table). Against guard and tau yes (at least they dont field Ogrins, even they could club them down).

 

Now you have the option of the flamer squad, but even that is a bit meh compared to other options.

Agreed. Assault Squads haven't really been a threat in close combat since 2nd Edition, where they could all be armed with power weapons, plasma pistols, hand flamers and multiple grenade types.

 

In an ideal world, Vanguard Vets would be dropped from Codex: Space Marines  (but kept in Codex Blood Angels) and 'normal' Assault Squads in all loyalist Codices would get the Vanguard's weapon options. Can't see it happening though unfortunately... 

[Brother Immolator]

Back in the day before most of that you named, Brother Immolator. Tau weren't even a thought in anyone's mind when an Assault squad would chew threw Gretchin to get at the Orks they were shielding, etc. The Black Templars were still a Codex form Chapter then. I remember Khorne Berserkers being better, but not the slaughterers of Assault Marines they'd be now.

At one point, they weren't a bad choice. Then the game expanded and changed and the Assault Squad wasn't changed to keep up, it was left behind in favor of even more specialized CC units...

Well, my experience comes from 3rd edition and afterwards so I cant comment on 2nd and before

EDIT: Got ninjad by Spaced Hulk

EDIT2: In third edition and to an extend 3.5 chaos dex I was scared when I saw Khorne Berzerkers. And I was not even playing back then...

[Syphid]

I just don't see any reason to take packless Assault Squads over Vet squads.  The points difference is negligible (with the vet Sgt upgrade they're the same) and you get an extra attack on every vet model.  That put the nail in the coffin for my old mech assault squad from last edition.

[Master Avoghai]

I just don't see any reason to take packless Assault Squads over Vet squads.  The points difference is negligible (with the vet Sgt upgrade they're the same) and you get an extra attack on every vet model.  That put the nail in the coffin for my old mech assault squad from last edition.

Not really. You must take into account the free transport.

To compare, you must give a transport to your vets too.

 

However, I recognize they're in competition... And that the vets win this competition but not because of the price, but because of the wargear flexibility they offer

[Mattias]

I think that there is definitely a role for the assault squad in some lists but only in certain configurations, namely those that take advantage of the free transport to become more efficient, for example compare the units below:

 

Assault Squad (x 5, 2 x Flamers, Drop Pod) = 95

 

Company Veterans (x 5, Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Drop Pod) = 140

 

Tactical Squad (x 5, Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Drop Pod) = 120

 

Now admittedly there are differences between the units, the Company Veterans have an additional attack and access to more combi-flamers, but are already 45pts more expensive and this will only increase by adding additional weapons and the Tactical Squad are obviously scoring and have bolters but pay 25pts for this. What the Assault Squad provides is a very cheap disposable distraction unit that can land in your opponents lines to threaten infantry and tanks (krak grenades) and I believe there is some use in that. Not a unit you will want to max out on but as a support unit to target your opponents firebase they are a useful tool.

[Centurio]

Besides using them with a free drop pod and some flamers, I haven't been able to think of anything great to do with them.  I really would like to use the jump pack version of the squad for something.  Maybe hold them back out of LOS to counter charge something?  Back in 2nd edition they were good because the jump packs made them so incredibly mobile, and they came with chainswords.  Two close combat weapons with a parry was pretty brutal back then in itself, never mind that they could have hand flamers, etc IIRC.  It's like GW remembers the days of 2nd edition and doesn't think the current assault squads need improvement at all.

 

--edited to change "hold them in reserve", I meant in a tactical sense, not the game rule

[facmanpob]

Besides using them with a free drop pod and some flamers, I haven't been able to think of anything great to do with them.  I really would like to use the jump pack version of the squad for something.  Maybe hold them back out of LOS to counter charge something?  Back in 2nd edition they were good because the jump packs made them so incredibly mobile, and they came with chainswords.  Two close combat weapons with a parry was pretty brutal back then in itself, never mind that they could have hand flamers, etc IIRC.  It's like GW remembers the days of 2nd edition and doesn't think the current assault squads need improvement at all.

 

--edited to change "hold them in reserve", I meant in a tactical sense, not the game rule

I've been thinking of a 5 man squad with JP, 2 flamers and a combi flamer (105 points). Sit them out of LOS behind an ADL gunline army, ready to pop out and flame anything that gets too close! Haven't had a chance to try it out yet though.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I've been thinking of a 5 man squad with JP, 2 flamers and a combi flamer (105 points). Sit them out of LOS behind an ADL gunline army, ready to pop out and flame anything that gets too close! Haven't had a chance to try it out yet though.

 

This seems to me the best option for using DA assault squads in this current time and age.

[Upstartes]

I see the packless assault squad with drop pod as a potential character delivery system for lists where points are tight. I envision some of my lists having Azzy and a vet or command squad in a drop pod, but if I were to ever need to skinny that list down for a lower-point battle, I might consider swapping the vet/command squad for an assault squad.

 

As for using them with jump packs, I think you have to ask "what to they do better than other fast attack choices?" I'm not sure. One possibility is their low points-to-body ratio in a highly mobile unit. If you're running Greenwing or Deathwing, the assault squad may be a points-efficient way to throw in a mobile element that is intended to go after soft targets or react to threats. Give them a Company Master and/or a Libby or Chaplain, and you've got something that isn't a death star, but also doesn't cost as much as one - yet your opponent still has to keep an eye on it. Alternatively, use them in a stripped-down mode as a sacrificial unit to engage an enemy death star before it gets to your more important elements.

 

I'm kind of just spit-balling here.

[elmo]

On a purely fluffy note - If you are going for collecting a Company you would need them.

On a gaming sense - there are better options that have already been covered for the fast slots.

On a modelling note - loads of bits to tart up the rest of your army plus jetpacks for characters

There is always Apoc. when you can dump your whole Company + attachments on the table just to see the look in the faces across the table.

[Centurio]

I have a company so I am really trying to find a way to justify using my assault squads.  I have one with and one without jump packs.  I have found that they are decent in Kill Team games, but I just can't seem to fit them into a real list.  I may start using them just for the sake of using them.

[Syphid]

 

I just don't see any reason to take packless Assault Squads over Vet squads.  The points difference is negligible (with the vet Sgt upgrade they're the same) and you get an extra attack on every vet model.  That put the nail in the coffin for my old mech assault squad from last edition.

Not really. You must take into account the free transport.

To compare, you must give a transport to your vets too.

 

However, I recognize they're in competition... And that the vets win this competition but not because of the price, but because of the wargear flexibility they offer

 

With the cost of bodies and wargear being equal in a 10 man squad, 35 points for a drop pod or Rhino is pretty small considering you get 90 points worth of value from having 10 vet marines.  Our Vets are basically Vanguard Vets without jump packs, for cheaper.

[Brother Immolator]

 

I've been thinking of a 5 man squad with JP, 2 flamers and a combi flamer (105 points). Sit them out of LOS behind an ADL gunline army, ready to pop out and flame anything that gets too close! Haven't had a chance to try it out yet though.

 

This seems to me the best option for using DA assault squads in this current time and age.

 

It would be a tad more flexible if you deep strike them though.

[Syphid]

I think that there is definitely a role for the assault squad in some lists but only in certain configurations, namely those that take advantage of the free transport to become more efficient, for example compare the units below: Assault Squad (x 5, 2 x Flamers, Drop Pod) = 95 Company Veterans (x 5, Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Drop Pod) = 140 Tactical Squad (x 5, Flamer, Combi-Flamer, Drop Pod) = 120 Now admittedly there are differences between the units, the Company Veterans have an additional attack and access to more combi-flamers, but are already 45pts more expensive and this will only increase by adding additional weapons and the Tactical Squad are obviously scoring and have bolters but pay 25pts for this. What the Assault Squad provides is a very cheap disposable distraction unit that can land in your opponents lines to threaten infantry and tanks (krak grenades) and I believe there is some use in that. Not a unit you will want to max out on but as a support unit to target your opponents firebase they are a useful tool.

 

Yeah, as a first turn Flamer delivery unit it defnitely wins out.