Death from the skies

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm going to end up buying some flyers anyway for my Army. I can use em in friendly games or Apocalypse so I don't really care. Which of the current GW Space Marine Flyers do you think the Space Wolves would use more? I'm Leaning towards the Storm Talon, but maybe the Raven?

[dswanick]

I'm going to end up buying some flyers anyway for my Army. I can use em in friendly games or Apocalypse so I don't really care. Which of the current GW Space Marine Flyers do you think the Space Wolves would use more? I'm Leaning towards the Storm Talon, but maybe the Raven?

The Storm Raven is the poor-mans Storm Eagle, which we get.  The Talon is a better choice for a second Flyer for Space Wolves, just re-model it so it doesn't look so ugly.

[Squark]

Done right, the storm talon resembles a Helicopter without the propellers. Granted, such a thing could never get off the ground, but it's still much better than the potato of a model it is in official art.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Under which rules do we get the Stormeagle?

[Anaraion]

The Storm Eagle is the FW model.  This is NOT the most up-to-date, but clearly shows we may use it...

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Stormeagle.pdf

 

A Storm Eagle Assault Gunship is a Fast Attack choice for a Codex
Space Marines, Codex Dark Angels, Codex Space Wolves or Codex
Black Templars army.

[Arraken]

Just give us our own flyer already or atleast our own AA. Hell, make it a bloodclaw-a-pult. 

[Dam13n]

The last time I took on an army with a flyer it was DE and I shot it down with a combo of prescience and 3 melta shots (one from the WG combi-melta).

 

True, the drake is now v. powerful (thanks to the 360' FAQ answer) but every time I've seen one used it has died so fast that it never had a chance to kill much.

 

Plus, we're using wolves. Turn 2-3 wipe-outs aren't unheard of. Both my last 2 games ended with me tabling my opponent by turn 3, and turn 3 was mopping up survivors. One of those was against BA and his Raven didn't show up before I wiped him out, meaning it never made it to the table.

 

Flyer spam means less enemy models on the table for the first 2 turns. 18 long fangs spamming 15 missile shots a turn is more than enough to turn his retaining force to pâté, even without taking the 30 grey hunters into account. At least in my experience... :P

[Emperor's Scourge]

I don't think anyone here is particularly worried about playing against someone running one Razorwing...

 

AV 10 all around...and being the ONLY model...kind of lacks the punch of three AV 12 fliers or nine AV 10/11 flyers.

 

Granted, we're both talking about extremes here.

 

Few people will run one flyer or nine flyers.  They're more likely to fall in between the two.

[Dam13n]

True enough. Though with DE their flyers are competing with the ever potent Ravagers (which tend to outperform the flyers IMHO) so seeing only 1 flyer for them is a fairly regular thing where I live, local Meta and all that.

 

Again Ravens are often solitary, primarily because they're expensive, and therefore represent a significant portion of an army which will have to sit on the sidelines for the first turn (at the very least). Only 1 person I know uses double Ravens and that's with a Death Co. heavy BA force, and his army is now such a glass cannon that he's seriously contemplating a change in his army.

 

Whenever I've seen Talons, they've often come in pairs, but they're relatively weak and with a ADL w. Icarus and my 18 Long Fangs + a Divination Rune Priest, I'm not that worried about them.

 

Vendettas also come in either pairs or as a threesome ( :p ) but as mine is an Infantry based army that can hug cover, 6-9 lascannons (plus heavy bolters) doesn't really bother me that much either.

 

This does lead me to the Drake, which does concern me (when given a Bale flamer at least) but again, I've only seen them used as solitary hunters, and they die fairly quickly, often to a intercepting Quad gun or Icarus. The though of facing one with my army does make me twitchy enough that I may consider going against my 13co fluff and buy some rhinos to hide my troops in.

 

Necrons are also a pain, with Flying transports (sodding Mat Ward) but thankfully no-one around here currently runs a flying circus, the preferred list is Barge-spam with a couple of units of Wraiths as tanking combat units. So again, if I do see a flyer it's usually a lone Doom Scythe, and like all the ones above, I reckon I can take it before suffering any major losses... :)

 

Of course this is all based off my local Meta, and thankfully nobody here runs true Flyer-spam. Mostly because it's seen as an, as yet, unbalanced part of the game.

[obs0l3te]

Well hate to pop the FW not legal bubble but in both IAA2 2nd ed. and Aeronautica both have pages that say "This unit is for standard games of 40k.....these should be considered offical.....but may be unknown to you opponent...."   both books have the gamesworkshop logo and copyrights all over them. and now with death from the skies being hard to get/limited and a 'offical' GW product .. im going to say FW is a go with these two books as most if not all the anti fw arguments are now invalid. Ill take a aegis with a lascannon and a hyperios any day over flakk and fliers. Hell its only a few extra points for a whirlwind with skyfire and interceptor with better missiles. 

[dswanick]

Well hate to pop the FW not legal bubble but in both IAA2 2nd ed. and Aeronautica both have pages that say "This unit is for standard games of 40k.....these should be considered offical.....but may be unknown to you opponent...."   both books have the gamesworkshop logo and copyrights all over them. and now with death from the skies being hard to get/limited and a 'offical' GW product .. im going to say FW is a go with these two books as most if not all the anti fw arguments are now invalid. Ill take a aegis with a lascannon and a hyperios any day over flakk and fliers. Hell its only a few extra points for a whirlwind with skyfire and interceptor with better missiles. 

That argument has been debated endlessly in other threads with the end result of "no debate winners".  No need to start it here.

[montegue]

The Helldrake is the worst offender I have seen, when used in pairs. At least, against us. Cover does not protect you. It has a 5+ Demon Save against anything you might hit it with. You need to commit something S8 or S9 to have a modest chance of killing it if you bypass it's 5+. If you don't kill it, it has a chance to regenerate hull points. It comes on when it comes on and in that turn it will eliminate or render combat ineffective one unit of Grey Hunters or other marines every single time it pulls the trigger. 

 

It's incredibly difficult to deal with two of them that come on in a pair. The Icarus or Quad Gun can handle one, but the other will then take out the Icarus or Quad gun with a fly-by and torch anything hiding in the ADL. 

 

Lone Wolf in TDA is probably the best man for the job, but then the ADL is just a giant wall protecting one guy from enemy fire. Ruins with multiple floors can make the Helldrake decide between a couple of models to kill in a longfang squad, but you're still losing a lot of heavy hitters every time the damn thing breathes. 

 

I think there are two responses. One is to bulk up our armies to deal with Helldrakes, specifically, in a way that also helps against other targets. Most of us do that by "twin linking" our Longfangs via a Rune Priest, and adding an ADL with a Quad Gun or Icarus. 

 

However, that's a lot of points. It's 100 for the ADL+Quad Gun, maybe another 45 for the Lone Wolf in TDA armor to man it. You *could* put a WGBL in Runic Armor on it for a high ballistic skill, but a steeper investment, I suppose. 

 

I also think we can focus on assault. A Land Raider with Terminators, Drop Pods with Gray Hunters, Land Speeders with Multi Meltas, and even Skyclaws deep striking into enemy territory are all possibilities. Thunderwolves get into combat quickly, as well. Once in close combat these units are basically safe from the Helldrake so long as they remain in close combat. And, if we are in the opponent's face, we are likely to remain in close combat for most of the game, if we play our cards right. The trouble, of course, is that when we wipe a unit out in CC, we are vulnerable to a turn of shooting if we win combat in our turn. If there are two helldrakes running about, that can really be a problem. 

 

Ultimately, we don't have a "good" answer. If we overcommit to anti-flyer, we cost ourselves a lot of what we need for the forces on the ground. If we undercommit, we're a ground pounding force trying to fight a battle against an enemy with heavy air support. This never really goes well for an army in the real world, and it's not going to go well for us, either. 

Real anti-aircraft options are needed, especially if they are cheap. Right now, the ADL is not cheap. It's the same price as a rune priest. 

[Squark]

 

Lone Wolf in TDA is probably the best man for the job, but then the ADL is just a giant wall protecting one guy from enemy fire.

Uhh... A tad confused here. Just because a Lone wolf is manning the gun does not mean the ADL is only protecting him. You can stick multiple units behind an Aegis Defense Line. And against basically anything except the Heldrake, you probably should to ensure your opponent can't steal the gun. Even against the heldrake, if the ADL is deployed in a relatively straight line, it won't be able to hit multiple units taking cover behind it.

[montegue]

Yeah, I was referring to the Helldrake. It's great against anything but the helldrake, for the most part, but I see a *lot* of Helldrakes in my local group. It's the new black. 

 

Deploying it long like that is going to mess with your guy's Line of Sight on a table with a proper amount of terrain, I imagine, which is why I prefer my longfangs in buildings with multiple levels. It's the same thing, really (4+ cover save and number of hits limited from a baleflamer due to troop position). But two baleflamers will eat them alive, I imagine. 

[Emperor's Scourge]

Well its been confirmed that we get fighter ace rules in death from the skies. So either GW included these to legitimizethe caestus and storm eagle inclusions or we're getting a flyer I'm the future.

[N777ATH]

What's fighter ace?

[Anaraion]

Well its been confirmed that we get fighter ace rules in death from the skies. So either GW included these to legitimizethe caestus and storm eagle inclusions or we're getting a flyer I'm the future.

 

When you say "we"... you mean Space wolves specifically?

[Emperor's Scourge]

Yep. They are SW specific rules that apply to pilots of flyers. From the fluff I've read our pilots are iron priests. The new rules are very similar to our sagas. I'd include a link but I'm at work and pressed for time. Go to BOLS and scroll down to their blog roll. You'll spot the links to scans of the new book.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Ah Scrouge, youve brought me hope. Whats the consensus on the Storm Eagle.. other than 'Spensive? Good Unit? Bad Unit? I remember reading it wasnt as good as the Vendetta for dog fighting..?

[Grey Mage]

 

Real anti-aircraft options are needed, especially if they are cheap. Right now, the ADL is not cheap. It's the same price as a rune priest. 

Rune Priests are pretty darn cheap, and so is the ADL. I wouldnt see every single army with them if they werent god awfully cheap.

[Emperor's Scourge]

Ah Scrouge, youve brought me hope. Whats the consensus on the Storm Eagle.. other than 'Spensive? Good Unit? Bad Unit? I remember reading it wasnt as good as the Vendetta for dog fighting..?

 

 

IMO, it's a better version of the Storm Raven.  Which is basically supposed to be a flying Land Raider.  How much do you value Land Raiders?

 

Pretty much the same problems.  You're carrying troops in it, but you're paying for a gun boat.  So, do you prioritize racing up the field and dropping off your cargo to get that unit into the game?  Well, then you're leaving yourself open when you enter hover mode.  Making your nearly 300 pt model only slightly more durable than a light ground transport.

 

Do you hang back, keeping your squad out of the game, so you can shoot other flyers and vehicles?  You'll get better value out of your 300 pts, but diminished value out of the unit you have loaded in it.  Not to mention that if it does get shot down your troops are going to take casualties before they engage the enemy.

 

It also kind of suffers from the fact that it'll likely be the only flyer in your army.  Making it a bullet magnet.  Torrent fire will take care of anything in this game.

 

The Vendetta is better imo.  It's got comparable lasting power.  It's got more lascannon shots...if i remember correctly.  It's cheaper by a lot.  Plus, you can load it with cheap troops.

 

All that aside, take what I say with a grain of salt.  I am by no means a top tier competitive player.

 

I like the model.  I think it looks cool.  That's usually good enough for me.  I've proxied one, but I don't actually own one.  It's going to be my Taxmas gift to myself so my Cataphractii Terms can ride in style.  Or a Spartan.  I change my mind on a daily basis.

[Evilmerlin]

Hyperios missile batteries are rather good anti-aircraft option if your group/TO allows forgeworld stuff. Autonomous, so you don't need something to babysit it and most importantly puts out 4 STR 8 shots rather than STR 7. Only BS3 but twin-linked helps with that. It is pricier that the ADL with quad gun by 40% though.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I personally love the Land Raider so I'm very happy to hear all of this. I think the Land Raider has always served me better as a gun platform than a transport and that's probably how I would use the Storm Eagle. It just leave me as the red-headed step child as far as Space Wolves tactica goes.. I definitely am not part of the norm.. I would love to get competitive but I doubt I'm very competitive right now.

[Vash113]

I personally love the Land Raider so I'm very happy to hear all of this. I think the Land Raider has always served me better as a gun platform than a transport and that's probably how I would use the Storm Eagle. It just leave me as the red-headed step child as far as Space Wolves tactica goes.. I definitely am not part of the norm.. I would love to get competitive but I doubt I'm very competitive right now.

 

Well that depends on what you would consider "competetive." If your talking a tournament heavy hitter list your in the realm of Loganwing Long Fang spam, Thunderlords and Thunderwolves in excess and so on and so forth.

 

Personally I just field whatever I feel is fluffy or interesting, including a Land Raider Crusader which has always served me just fine, Terminators though they aren't point for point effective compared to other options, large Blood Claw packs just to see so many bodies in one squad and so on and so forth. The important thing is if the list works for you and your playstyle.

 

As for the Storm Eagle I like the rules, I like the model, but it's highly unlikely I'm going to spend the money for the rulebook and model from Forge World, I put a lot of money into this hobby but not that much all at once.

[hendrik]

Torrents,that's all I'm going to say on the matter