Boniface Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 As we all know the standard of devastation is pretty much the one direction all dark angel players want to go (I know I do). Banner has 12" AoE for re-rolls and 6" AoE for salvo. 2 questions about this. 1. Does this mean from the banner bearer or unit with banner? 2. Is it against the rules to mount on a bigger base to increase AoE? The thought came to me from the old rules where you had to mount on at least the base provided but could go bigger if you want. As the model acts as though it takes up the area of the base this would increase the radius precious inches when crowding the others around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 As we all know the standard of devastation is pretty much the one direction all dark angel players want to go (I know I do). Banner has 12" AoE for re-rolls and 6" AoE for salvo. 2 questions about this. 1. Does this mean from the banner bearer or unit with banner? "Any friendly Codex: Dark Angels unit within 12" of this standard re-rolls failed ... In addition, all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat ... ", C:DA, pg.66 So it is measured from the equipped model. (Note that if the model/unit is embarked in a transport the range is measured from the hull of the transport). 2. Is it against the rules to mount on a bigger base to increase AoE?No it is not "illegal". It is, however, unsportsmanlike and "modeling for advantage". As such I would fully support anyone telling you to "sod off" if you placed such a model on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 another question: if your fighting against traitors from the HH, does bane of traitors still apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 No it is not "illegal". It is, however, unsportsmanlike and "modeling for advantage". As such I would fully support anyone telling you to "sod off" if you placed such a model on the table.Why though? What makes that less right than this?(Note that if the model/unit is embarked in a transport the range is measured from the hull of the transport).Is it because the rules say it that it becomes okay, because it seems like an inconsistency to me to say that if you put it on a base to get a bigger area of effect, that isn't allowed, but if you pop that baby in a transport that increases the radius out another three inches beyond what it would have been, because that's stated in the rules, it isn't an abuse. I get that you have to pay for the transport, etc, but it doesn't make a lot of logical sense: even if the poor standard bearer was running around trying to get the standard closest to whatever squad needed it most (tiring the poor guy out). I would think it would be better to designate a hatch (which is about the size of an official base for a Marine) and just measure from there to show the banner-man sticking the banner up out of it. The transport issue, since so many people seem to be using it for an advantage with the banner almost makes it seem to be "Transporting for advantage." I guess in the end, it matters what you think about how the banners work. If it is simply knowing that it is nearby, then being in a vehicle and knowing it's in there would I guess have the effect as abstracted by the rules, but if it is needing to actually see it to get the "powa" from the banner, then I would think you'd need to designate some place for the banner to be "sticking out to be seen." It all just seems somewhat logically inconsistent rules-wise, but I guess that's abstraction for you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlauG Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 If you're desperate for a bigger base, use a Deathwing Command Squad. :P But yes, in rules terms, any wargear or powers which are measured from the base of a single model are then measured from the hull of a transport vehicle they enter. This isn't just the Dark Angels, it applies to things like a Chaos Dark Apostle's 12" leadership bubble, an Ork Big Mek's Kustom Force Field, etc. A bigger base is modelling for advantage for minimal effect, while the vehicle has to be paid for in points terms somehow, hence why it is more acceptable. If you can't deal with the abstraction, perhaps the knowledge that the banner is inside that vehicle is inspiring enough? Perhaps the extra height if they are popping out of a hatch, allows it to be seen from slightly further away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boniface Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I would like to point out that on the flipside of the coin mounting on a larger base increases the visibility of the unit therefore reducing other possible advantages. Was just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Also, if I might add, you measure from the outside of any fortification that the command squad is inside of. This does not include the battlements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 No it is not "illegal". It is, however, unsportsmanlike and "modeling for advantage". As such I would fully support anyone telling you to "sod off" if you placed such a model on the table. ^ This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Why though? What makes that less right than this? (Note that if the model/unit is embarked in a transport the range is measured from the hull of the transport).Is it because the rules say it that it becomes okay, because it seems like an inconsistency to me to say that if you put it on a base to get a bigger area of effect, that isn't allowed, but if you pop that baby in a transport that increases the radius out another three inches beyond what it would have been, because that's stated in the rules, it isn't an abuse. For one thing - a Vehicle model is harder to hide (25% obscure) than an Infantry model. For another - yes, you do pay extra for the Transport (in both points and Kill Points). But no - increasing the base size doesn't increase a models "visibilty", since you don't draw Line of Sight to a models base, although it does make it a bigger "presence" on the battlefield: I would like to point out that on the flipside of the coin mounting on a larger base increases the visibility of the unit therefore reducing other possible advantages. Was just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 If you stick him on a 40mm base you gain a MASSIVE 7.5mm extra reach each side; not a big deal esp. if you are going to create a cool scenic one. I'd have no issue with it. If however you stick him on a 60mm one ...it's a dreadsocking for you fo sho. 2c stobz BTW: I have a Servo-harness techmarine on a 40mm base because he looks unbalanced on the 25mm; that will aid his new found PFG radius so maybe I am modelling for advantage there too I plan on mounting all my Chapter HQ on bigger bases because they are little metal men compared to the new plastics, that includes my original Bethor with a Sacred Standard of some sort. It will help with their look and maybe their range, but again 7.5mm Who cares!!! Edit: Oops, I'm thinking they are 19mm bases not 25mm (at work, can't remember); still not a huge deal when using a 12" radius buff, talk to your group, take the 10.5mm or roughly 1/2" off if it is a borderline call. Easy, don't let the interweb sway you too hard, just be nice about it and your mates will probably understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 If you stick him on a 40mm base you gain a MASSIVE 7.5mm extra reach each side; not a big deal esp. if you are going to create a cool scenic one. I'd have no issue with it. If however you stick him on a 60mm one ...it's a dreadsocking for you fo sho. 2c stobz BTW: I have a Servo-harness techmarine on a 40mm base because he looks unbalanced on the 25mm; that will aid his new found PFG radius so maybe I am modelling for advantage there too I plan on mounting all my Chapter HQ on bigger bases because they are little metal men compared to the new plastics, that includes my original Bethor with a Sacred Standard of some sort. It will help with their look and maybe their range, but again 7.5mm Who cares!!! Agreed, a one size increase to a "scenic" base is no big deal. Mountimg him on a 10" Apocalyptic blast marker to get the benefit is a firing squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macabre Slanneshi Prince Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 If you stick him on a 40mm base you gain a MASSIVE 7.5mm extra reach each side; not a big deal esp. if you are going to create a cool scenic one. I'd have no issue with it. If however you stick him on a 60mm one ...it's a dreadsocking for you fo sho. It may not sound like much, but a 40mm base gives about a 10% larger area for the Salvo bubble and about a 5% larger area for the Leadership bubble. It's not much but it's also not insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 What if you mounted him on a 40mm or 60mm base, but with some kind of ring that indicated where the banner base actually was for measuring purposes? I do agree that modeling it on a larger base for the sole purpose of increasing AoE is a no-no, but I think that if you were fair about it, a larger base wouldn't be that big a deal. Plus, any banner bearer standing on a mound of Tyranid, Necron, or other Xenos or Heretic bits is just awesome. :D Edit: Dang, now I have something I want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Ugh... Here is the problem... the rules as written VS the intent of the rules. While the banner is great, it wasn't designed to encompass your whole army. We don't need broken mechanics. As for adding a bigger base... really? I mean you know the correct answer already, but your logic sounds more like an attempt to exploit the rules as written, instead of following the intent of the rules. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but sportsmanship is a big part of the game. If I was going to play again someone doing that I would probably tell him that I'll pass on the game, in favor of a another player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boniface Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 To be honest i don't like breaking rules. I'm much more interested in playing fair as much as possible. My question was just a curiosity and given reactions it seems fairly cut and dry that its a bit of a no-no, which is fair by my standards. Would people consider mounting a space marine on a terminator base, for example, as cheating? I just prefer to give HQ style choices more room as i consider them centre-piece models. What about the size of a base for a bike? Is it considered wrong to use anything bigger that a bike base? What if you have a model performing some impressive stunt or something? Terminators are usually fine on 40mm bases regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 To be honest i don't like breaking rules. I'm much more interested in playing fair as much as possible. My question was just a curiosity and given reactions it seems fairly cut and dry that its a bit of a no-no, which is fair by my standards. Would people consider mounting a space marine on a terminator base, for example, as cheating? I just prefer to give HQ style choices more room as i consider them centre-piece models. What about the size of a base for a bike? Is it considered wrong to use anything bigger that a bike base? What if you have a model performing some impressive stunt or something? Terminators are usually fine on 40mm bases regardless. While it might not be against the rules as written it is against the intent of the rules. I understand what you are saying about HQ models, but the fact they they have more detail and more gear then the average trooper, which allowed for more dynamic painting, already adds that the flair you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 If you want to have a cool looking character/miniature. Build one for painting/converting, put it on a Large scenic base. And then... dont play with it. You probably spent many hours on it, and dont want it get scratched/damaged. For gaming purpose, keep to the assigned base. It is more than enough in most cases. And there is a lot of room for a bike to do stunts on it too. Heck doing a stunt actually gives you more space on the base, as he probably is going to jump or something silly like that. Well if your gonna do a crazy 8, or spin around in a circle and showing of the brunt rubber it leaves... well then the bases supplied wont be enough... Now, if you model your whole army on 40-60mm bases. I wouldnt mind actually. Then I know your dedicated to model your whole army with high focus on the base scenery. Doing it only on HQ/special models who actually have skills that benifit others by extending their base, I would deem as a sneak attempt to a cheat. No matter how small the increase in advantage it is, its a cheat. Just like going over the assigned points value agreed on. Example... going to play 1750 pts. That means 1750 pts or lower, not 1751 pts. Still ppl try to get away with it, "Its just one point man..." Then lose the melta bomb on the sergeant over there!" "But then they lose anti-tank etc etc etc whine whine whine". I know some players who refuse to play with the new Space marine Rhinos, as they are larger than the old ones... Both me and himself know why he is using these old rhinos... smaller model. Heck, one guy has even cut his old rhino in the middle, and made it shorter. Of course, he has all the reasons for doing it. "Fluff, theme, etc" Call it what you want. I call it cheating. Do as you please. I will still be there playing against players who do this. Showing them that you dont need to cheat to win, nor do you need fancy large bases to have a striking army appearance. I have won many best painted army competitions (local tournameds though of around 20 players), and I have always used normal bases. Some example bases from some of my older armies. 25 mm bases http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/VashDime/40k/Eldar/harlequins.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/VashDime/40k/Elysia/Companycommand.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/VashDime/40k/Vostroyans/Command.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/VashDime/40k/Vostroyans/Veterans2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Nice picks, but those are meatsacks and xenos; real minis are too big for 19mm bases :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Just Stick him inside a bastion, with a PFG... AV 14, 4++ save and the AOE Spreads across almost 22" of your side, as well as giving a 4++ cover save to your Devastators to fire from the roof.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Kinda makes the extra 1/2" of a larger base a bit of a pedantic arguement :P AWESOME!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Interesting fact - Suggestions for underhanded tactics come from people underhanded enough to think of, and/or use, them in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 LOL, or if he goes inside the Walkway section of the Fortress of Redemption, lol everything On or IN the fortress gets the banner effect. As well as a few inches in front of and behind the middle section.. The only section not under the Influence of the banner is the very top of the tower :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 That's awesome; just remember to play fair and talk about the awesomeness of your army to your oponent to avoid nerdrage over the awesomeness of the rules as they are written :P. BTW: How many Tactical squads can you fit in that FoR? I'm not too familiar with buildings rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithrilForge Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 As most posters here say its a bit cheesy im prob in agreement with that ...But... I guess if your on a larger base it can go against you as well, it means someone may just be able to sneak into charge range or they can stick more bodies up against you in CC .... Mithril P.S. (cool models vash) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 +1, it does work both ways Just don't model for advantage; model for Rule of Cool, it's not underhanded then. If you get called on a close measurement like I said earlier just subtract 1/2" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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