Chaos Dreadnoughts; how are they doing?

[Lady_Canoness]

To be honest, I've put down my 40k for some time now, though I still maintain an interest with the game in general and a couple factions in particular.

My question is about the Chaos Dreads: how are they doing compared to previous editions? Are people using them again? (I used to always use 3 of them in 5th, but apparently I was CrAaaaZzY!!!! ) Are there major competitors that hog force org charts? In your experience, are they more usable then they were in past editions, and how do they fare compared to loyalist counterparts? (I was always of the opinion that they were better, but apparently I was... well, you know.)

Fill me in, if you can be bothered. They are some of the coolest units to convert and play with, but does is their fate still strongly bound to shelves and dust collections?

-L_C

[Hazath]

I absolutely love the models, and their crazed rule got better,  but I still cannot find a place for them.

 

Unlike loyalists, Chaos dreads can't have two twinlinked autocannons, nor the dropods.. Shooting roles are filled by havocs or predators.

 

Of course, not that chaos elite section has other fascinating things, except terminators.

[Vesper]

More usable, indeed, but still not that great mostly because of the lack of drop-pod/dreadclaw. I'd play chaos dreadnought more often if they had such deployment tricks.

[minigun762]

The biggest bonuses I see are that they're cheap and there isn't much else to take in the Elite slot.

 

I used to promote the idea of a mixed loadout to take advantage of all of the crazed results but I find myself shifting back to the dual DCCWs simply because 2/3 of the crazed results would help that anyway, you're only getting a crazed result on a hit not each turn and it keeps the unit cheap but still semi-effective.

 

Sure it's not nearly as fast as a Maulerfiend, but it's cheap, has better WS and I and adds to the armor saturation of a list.

[the jeske]

My question is about the Chaos Dreads: how are they doing compared to

previous editions?

they are worse then the ones from 2ed and those were actualy ok to be used . all other dreads from all other editions since then were meh at best.

Are people using them again? (I used to always use 3

of them in 5th, but apparently I was CrAaaaZzY!!!! )

even the realy good dreads are no longer used by GKs , so no we dont use dreads. we even lack basic transport for them in form of drop pods , so even using them for casual stuff wont work.

Are there major competitors that hog force org charts?

nope.

are they more usable then they were in past editions,

then 4th or 5th ? not realy.

how do they fare compared to loyalist counterparts? (I was always of the

opinion that they were better, but apparently I was... well, you know.)

they are not rifleman , they cant take drop pods , nor can they be iron clads or librarians. So they are kind of a bad [not that dreads for loyalists are good in 6th or anything].

[Aidoneus]

Oh Jeske, it's always doom and gloom with you. If it isn't the staple of the net-list-of-the-month, it's utterly unusable.

 

Are dreadnoughts the single best choice in our codex? No, of course not. Would I take them in a maxed-out competitive tournament list? Nope. But at they good enough to help out in casual games? Of course they are. They work just like dreadnoughts always have. If you used 'em before, you don't be disappointed in them now. I find they can help fill gaps in my list, like supplying anti-tank power and some CC support. And as Minigun says, if you want to have other vehicles in your list, more armor saturation is always a good thing.

[the jeske]

 

 Of course they are.They work just like dreadnoughts always have

Where did I ever mention tournament play and dreads ? they areav 12  walkers and there is glance death in 6th ed .how is that working light dreads always have ? the main point for dreads was being low armor vehicles , that mostly ignore small weapon fire . but when glance kill them , they suck even for armies which had good dreads . 

maybe if our dreads had some sort of utility use , like pods or search lights someone could think about them . right now the same points invested in to something else will work better, specialy when one considers that our stuff generaly costs more.

 

 

 

like supplying anti-tank power and some CC support.

I should probably ask what is your hvy support section doing then , but I wont . How do dreads do better then taking a unit of termis. They cant be glance , have more weapons to shot and +2sv is realy nice in 6th , they will also draw fire away from other stuff in the list , unlike dreads which can offten be ignored.

 

 

 

Sure it's not nearly as fast as a Maulerfiend, but it's cheap, has better WS and I and adds to the armor saturation of a list.

how are they cheap , even naked they cost 210pts ,that is without taking hvy flamers . for 8 pts more your buying 6 terminators with 6 combi plasma, just to use units from elite slot.

[Excessus]

Naked dreads for 210p? What codex are you using?

[Iron_Within]

Jeske a naked Dread is 100 points. the most expensive ones are plasma cannon and flamer at 125, still as cheap as a basic Maulerfiend.

[Hazath]

The biggest bonuses I see are that they're cheap and there isn't much else to take in the Elite slot.

 

I used to promote the idea of a mixed loadout to take advantage of all of the crazed results but I find myself shifting back to the dual DCCWs simply because 2/3 of the crazed results would help that anyway, you're only getting a crazed result on a hit not each turn and it keeps the unit cheap but still semi-effective.

 

Sure it's not nearly as fast as a Maulerfiend, but it's cheap, has better WS and I and adds to the armor saturation of a list.

How well do CCW Dreads work out for you? I would like to use them as well, but it seems that they would explode before getting into close combat.

[Aidoneus]

Jeske, I should clarify: by "anti-tank" I meant anti AV13+. While oblits obviously do that fine, I find it a bit expensive to take lascannon havocs, preferring instead the missiles or autocannons. I also like defilers, forgefiends, and vindicators, in the right lists. I'm not saying I always need help taking down heavy armour, but in certain lists it's nice to be able to include a multi-melta or lascannon and S10 power fist for fairly cheap.

 

Hazath, I have actually moved away from the CC dreads. In certain situations, you want to avoid CC, at least for a turn or two, and having a gun arm gives you the flexibility to still be useful at range. It also lets the dread be relevant from turn 1. And even when you do decide to charge in, you're just as well off shooting a MM or lascannon on the way in, instead of having +1 attack in combat. Maybe the extra fist will help in protracted fights, but generally you want dreadnoughts to either a) charge a vehicle, b) charge the last few men in a squad, or c) charge a big blob of guys to tie them up. In those situations, you're either not looking for a protracted fight or you're facing so many little enemies you don't reasonably expect to ever kill them all.

[the jeske]

Naked dreads for 210p? What codex are you using?

the csm one.

Jeske a naked Dread is 100 points. the most expensive ones are plasma

cannon and flamer at 125, still as cheap as a basic Maulerfiend.

wait. so you want to run/run a single av12 walker that makes as much sense as runing a single oblit in the whole army .although it would be probably better because of the cost and because in this example the dread/dreads are melee. A single melee dread is , hell I would run a mutilator with MoN before taking that.

I find it a bit expensive to take lascannon havocs

a predator is av13 has 2 las and an AC instead of a single las and costs more or less the same .

[Lieutenant Steel]

Jeske: Surely the point of taking a Helbrute/ Dread over a Predator in the first place tells you that the owner wants close combat support?

SInce Preds and Dreads have different roles it's not really great to compare the two- of course Preds are better at shooting; they also have better armour, which would make them the better choice for some peoples' play styles. The Helbrute/ Dread exists to fill a multi-purpose role though, giving you some shooting support and some close combat support in a single model. They are very versatile in that they will do very well against some armies and very badly against others- which means you can't compare them easily.

For what it's worth, I agree that they should be better.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Never understood why there isn't a "Chaos Lord Dread" type, a bit like a Venerable, but with nasty abilities, its a shame with all those good looking FWDreads not being used...

 

Also a dedicated to a God rule could have helped to define abit more different roles for the Dread.

 

But an interessting way to use them is in a defensive way.

 

Give them a longrange weapon, and a Power scourge, leave them next to an objective with one of your scoring units, if anything comes near your scoring unit, and its a good CC unit, like they usually are, use the Dread and his Powerscourge, to glue them in CC, you can be good has you want in CC, if you are left with a 2 or 1 WS, you can't do shiit to it.

 

Its not optimal play or anything, i'll agree to that, but its one way to do it, and the results can be surprising.

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, because only hitting on a 4+ is such a crippling disadvantage to most assault troops who will be spoiling to take on a walker. ¬_¬

 

Seriously, the Scourge is a joke. A weapon skill penalty. Wow. I'm sooo terrified.

 

Ten Sisters Repentia charge a Dreadnought with a Scourge. They fail to activate their Act of Faith. The Mistress tanks one Wall of Death other wound on her power armour but dies to the other. This is just the most basic guestimate result, of course. The scourge drops the Repentia's WS by 2, leaving them at WP2. The Dreadnought strikes first with a whole... two attacks, hitting on 3+. Lets be generous and say they both hit, roll to wound on a 2+, and the Repentia fail their invulnerable saves and die. The rest of the squad strikes at Initiative 1, with four attacks each (2 base, +1 for charging, +1 for rage). So, statistically, fourteen attacks hit. Front armour 12 means they need to roll an average of 6 on 2d6. Dead dreadnought.

 

How about a unit that's not specifically designed to kill walkers?

 

Ten Battle Sisters (for some insane reason) decide to charge a Dreadnought with a Scourge. Their Act of Faith is irrelevant. Again, they lose a Sister to the Wall of Death, and the Flail reduces their WS by 2 (making them WS1). This time, the seven remaining squad members only get six attacks with krak grenades and one attack with meltabombs. The meltabomb has a 50/50 chance of hitting. Three krak grenades hit and probably fail to glance. The meltabomb goes through, the dreadnought explodes, takes maybe two Sisters with it (statistically speaking).

 

Soo... why are you using a Dreadnought again? It's obviously not for it's ability to scythe through troops...

[Lieutenant Steel]

Why would a Dread be engaging a full strength unit on it's own? As we can see, that's not exactly where it excels (due to the low number of attacks it gets), so why would you not be using it in conjunction with other units, so that it can function as a support unit? It seems as though they would work best when used essentially as unit-attachments, providing a heavy weapon that can move forward without slowing the other elements of your army, but that can still keep pace for close combat.

Furyou: Your last example seems to say that there's a 50% chance of it being hit by melta bombs and destroyed; so it has a 50% chance of surviving IF the unit took melta bombs. If they didn't they would be held up and have no chance of hurting the Dread beyond occasional, and unlikely, glancing hits.

[the jeske]

 

As we can see, that's not exactly where it excels (due to the low number of attacks it gets), so why would you not be using it in conjunction with other units, so that it can function as a support unit?

only for the same points you can get 5 pms with 2 plasmas  , unglancable , will have a better rate of surivial against high str low ap weapons[1 pm dead is not the same as one blown up dread]. Or a 5 man NM with a blast master which is just as good as a plasma cannon armed dread[as the weapon being shot goes].

 

 

Jeske: Surely the point of taking a Helbrute/ Dread over a Predator in

the first place tells you that the owner wants close combat support?

aside for a very short time when BA could take lucius drop pods , I cant remember a melee walker being good and I remember as far as 2ed . If someone wants melee[no idea why considering how bad it is] or counter unit , then taking csm or biker+lords is better. If someone wants tar pits he can take spawn . but av12 walker ? 6"move +random charge range , no frags , low A . no that is not a good thing to take . And before someone jumps on me about tournaments again , am not doing this from a tournament point of view , because the question wasnt about tournaments.

[Excessus]

the csm one.

Well, subtract 110 points from what you posted and you are on the dollar about the cost of one dread. You don't need to buy two at a time, at least not in my version of the codex...

[*Furyou Miko]

Why would a Dread be engaging a full strength unit on it's own? As we can see, that's not exactly where it excels (due to the low number of attacks it gets), so why would you not be using it in conjunction with other units, so that it can function as a support unit? It seems as though they would work best when used essentially as unit-attachments, providing a heavy weapon that can move forward without slowing the other elements of your army, but that can still keep pace for close combat.

 

Furyou: Your last example seems to say that there's a 50% chance of it being hit by melta bombs and destroyed; so it has a 50% chance of surviving IF the unit took melta bombs. If they didn't they would be held up and have no chance of hurting the Dread beyond occasional, and unlikely, glancing hits.

 

The dreadnought is there to provide CC support for another squad, yes? Well, it can be charged independently. The Repentia might well then get slaughtered by whataver squad the dreadnought was supporting, but really, all you've done is give the Repentia their favourite target (otherwise they'd be off putting the hurt on terminators).

 

Steel: In the second example, I'm also assuming that the Sisters are going to assault a Dreadnought instead of just stopping 6-12 away and meltagunning it to death with preferred enemy, which is ultimately far more likely. The point is that if it can't stand up to a basic squad with a basic 5 point upgrade doing something the squad was never meant to do, how on earth is it worth fifty points, let alone a hundred?

[Trevak Dal]

I only have one, and ran him as a RAC/ML loadout. My opponent ignored him most of the game as he shot and immobilized a lead tank in a narrow street section, and my Raptors, beat Team Five (MoS and Flamers) ran a merry train on the Fleshtearers who abandoned their rhino. This continued on for a few turns until he finally got assaulted, and blown up (No Fist :( ) but he blew up, and killed the squad attacking him so he had the last laugh.

 

Then again, "I'm weird" in that my first/Main army is Tau...so I build everything with a mind for supporting each element. The Dred was there to back up my Dakka Pred-and did so nicely.

 

It's criminal the Missile launcher on a full dred doesn't fire 2 shots...but whatever.

 

Edit:

 

I should further qualify this.

 

I was running Khârn, a huge "Angry Gang" of 15 CSMs with BP/CCW, MoK, IoW with 2 melta guns, 2 10 man CSM 'Tactical' squads with Ubergrit, 1 with plasma guns, one with Melta guns, Rhinos with the H. Launchers, and a 5 man Autocannon Havok squad The dakka pred, and beat Team 5.

 

The Dakka pred was on the lower part of the board, and was put in a position to bolster the Havocks which Clock Tower'd most of the game from the High Ground, generally unmolested. The dred was on the upper part of the board, and able to shoot around the center piece of the map that blocked LOS to the Havoks and Predator on the north side.

 

Meanwhile, Khârn and his Angry gang move up behind the rhinos-which are shooting as they go, the melta Tactical squad jumps out-waits a turn and doesn't lose anyone as the enemy rhino was wrecked and the Blood angels were pinned from the Dred killing their tank.

 

As the melta squad had their "Getting ready" to fight in the next round, RT5...ever eager to meet new and interesting people, "Struck from the skies brothers" jumping out from behind the rhinos, flamed, and then killed the squad. They got destroyed in the following turn of course...but the dred got first blood, and helped remove a scoring unit from the board, providing cover for the melta squad to run up to the log-jammed tanks and they went on a tear dropping the predator, and then the enemy Blood Talon dred.

 

My Dred managed to take out (closest allocation) his infantry Plasma Cannon, so all I had to worry about was his sanguinary guard unit with Astorath who deep struck next to Kharns unit.

 

My opponent ignored the Dred, because he was used to people (in past additions) who would always have Gun/DCCW and it would be safe to ignore it. I felt I had a lack of fire support in my army (again...my main army is Tau, and I'm used to being able to manage that pretty well) and my Cybot did the job well. He died gloriously, and helped me win the game.

[chillin]

Never understood why there isn't a "Chaos Lord Dread" type, a bit like a Venerable, but with nasty abilities, its a shame with all those good looking FWDreads not being used...

 

Also a dedicated to a God rule could have helped to define abit more different roles for the Dread.

 

But an interessting way to use them is in a defensive way.

 

Give them a longrange weapon, and a Power scourge, leave them next to an objective with one of your scoring units, if anything comes near your scoring unit, and its a good CC unit, like they usually are, use the Dread and his Powerscourge, to glue them in CC, you can be good has you want in CC, if you are left with a 2 or 1 WS, you can't do shiit to it.

 

Its not optimal play or anything, i'll agree to that, but its one way to do it, and the results can be surprising.

I would imagine that if you just left your dread standing near an objective your  opponent would get around to shooting it sooner or later (after more threatening targets were shot) and not let the dread charge the unit assaulting your objective holding unit. That is what I would do anyway. If you want to leave something in back w a long range weapon, preds, oblits, and havocs all fit the role better and have more longrange guns. And oblits and havocs CAN lend a hand in CC as well if you really need them to. Actually T 5, 2+ armor, oblits w PF's arent bad in hth (as long as they arnt by themselves)

[Azekai]

tl;dr chaos dreads are sort of pants in 6th with glancing to death and their poor weapon options. Take them if you want, but your points are better spent elsewhere (like on a stupidly powerful hellturkey). 

[derpasaurus]

Wow. HAAAAAATE.

My dreadnought (I call it that because it IS one, a loyalist conversion) is pretty awesome @ 100 points. It likes to kill razorbacks and rhinos and preds and I could go on. I admit it doesn't do too well in combat (especially last time I ran it, couldn't hit dick, it whiffed on everything. every. time.) but it does so love putting the hurt on tracks.

Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy who uses CHOSEN! OH THE HUMANITY. Oh and they work. Rather well.
Look at your meta, look at your list. If you think it'll fare ok and you have 100 free points, it probably will fare ok. Mine almost always does.

[zyl-]

I'm not sure why the jeske thinks a hellbrute is 200+ points, so I can't address his concerns.

 

As for all the people saying that such and such heavy unit can bring x lascannons.. yeah. This is not a heavy slot we are talking about, so those lascannons don't matter in this instance.

 

Terminators are probably the only unit you will have competing for an elite slot these days, and a hellbrute is roughly as costly as one termicide squad of 3. Can you do more with AV 12 rather than 2+/5++? Can a mobile multimelta do better than 3 deepstriking combimeltas?

 

As for hellbrutes doing nothing.. well they will die to a tactical squad in mele, but I have used one to take out 400 points of necrons in mele. They can die to a single plasma shot, but I've used mine to blow hammerheads. They may not be the best possible choice in a game where blob squads are thought of as the best option, but if you are trying to use armor saturation, they do pretty good to bring more heavy weapons to bear and force more priority targets.

[*Furyou Miko]

jeske thinks they're 200+ points because the idea of taking one of anything, especially a subpar or randomising unit, is complete anathema to him. ;)

 

Anyway, my whole point with the examples was that weapon skill reduction is useless. >>

 

Zyl-, what stopped those 400 points of Necrons from running away when they couldn't hurt it? I'm assuming they didn't have any 'scythes or they would have slaughtered the 'brute.