the jeske Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Well, subtract 110 points from what you posted and you are on the dollar about the cost of one dread. You don't need to buy two at a time, at least not in my version of the codex... ok first of all am having problems with imagining how you get a 100-125pts left over in a list to be able to only buy a dread[that includdes taking ally] . A single dread make no sense at all. 100+pts for a single hvy weapon I can get 2 plasma for not much more or a BM in a 5man nm unit . There isnt even a "but you have to take lord X" problem here because without taking the proper lord both of those are elite.ah and before someone thinks about taking this against me. no elite NM or PM are not remotely viable. So dreads are weaker , then something I would never take in a normal list. what does this mean? well this means that even if someone wasnt making an army to be efficient[foolish but it is a personal choice] , there are still better options to use the same points. now on to the melee dread as single . no pod . 6" movment . low attacks and armor 12. this means this unit is going to walk the table for 2 turns minium [and if it doesnt then the dread probably doesnt want to get near your oppnents army] and if he survives [av12 <=] , the best thing he does is tar piting . you know what for 100+pts I can get a mutilator [which again I would never use , it is imo better to run a SW list with lone wolfs is someone wants a build using small distraction units like this] with MoN and I will even have points left or go crazy and buy 2 mutilators without MoN [which I would never do , because ID 2w models are meh when IG spams las and is an ally for everyone]. All of this happens without me even starting to go in to the dread rage thing , in to lack of rifleman set up etc. am not considering this as a downside , because the question of are dreads good wasnt asked about tournament games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 something I would never take in a normal list Nobody is asking what you would take in a list jeske, because it's rather obvious you wouldn't take one. And what do you mean with "normal" list, I haven't seen you talk about anything other than tournament lists, not a single advice for a new player that plays friendly games, no hints for how a player can play a fluffy list and still win against his friends. What would be a non-normal list for you, I'm extremely curious... No, dreads(helbrutes) are not the apex of creation in the elite slot, and the entire elite slot is rather meh at best...for tournament/competitive play. But they can be good in lists depending on what your gaming group looks like. And I'm not saying anything about how to get the points over in a list for one dread, that is not my concern(I don't use them myself anyway) and depends much on the players preferences, but if you want to make an argument you should at least use the correct numbers in the codex... If only Games Workshop was more like a computergame company that released patches regularly re-balancing competitive games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Lady Canoness asked if dreads are any good, and Jeske pointed out the many problems with av12 walkers. Dreads were not good before and they are not good now. Don't defend dreads. Talking about how they can be situationally usefull is rather pointless because you can argue that for any bad unit/upgrade, and such testimonials are purely anecdotal. If only Games Workshop was more like a computergame company that released patches regularly re-balancing competitive games... If only indeed. But that takes a significant investment of time and effort. I have no doubt that GW would make everyone pay through the nose for said rules updates either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 My gamer ADD is setting in again, and I want to step away from my Iron Hands and come back to my Alpha Legion, at least for a little bit. I own two of the FW Legion dreads (I refuse to ever call them by that hideous new name) but couldn't find a place for them. . . until I embraced Huron and a "leg" infantry mindset. In building an 1850 army list recently, I discovered to my dismay that I had only a single unit with an armor value -- a Rhino. A single AV11 tank simply isn't going survive, so I needed some way to spread the enemy's anti-tank fire on Turn One in order to give the embarked melta squad a fighting chance of getting into a halfway decent forward position in the early game. I've already got some MoT Termies in the army that'll help, but I decided that the cheapest way to pull anti-tank guns off of a Rhino is with a Dreadnought. They're reasonably cheap armor, basically, and can still carry weapons capable of dishing out hurt (unlike an occassional havoc launcher. Psh.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 See, that's what I always use my Dead for. You ignore it and it melts your tank and kills your doodz, or you kill it and let something else slip by. It's currently the cheapest selection in my army at 105, and I never cry when it gets blown up, because it means it distracted someone. I also like the crazed chart. Nothin says lovin like 2 shots of multimelta or 4 S 10 I 4 power fist attacks because some chump glanced you last turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Maybe I'm just biased as a Sisters player, what with having plenty of firepower to go around, but I would hardly call spending a turn killing a dreadnought 'wasted', considering I probably swept on from the flank, blasted it up the jacksie on the way through without even disembarking and have sighted up on something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 jeske thinks they're 200+ points because the idea of taking one of anything, especially a subpar or randomising unit, is complete anathema to him. Anyway, my whole point with the examples was that weapon skill reduction is useless. >> Zyl-, what stopped those 400 points of Necrons from running away when they couldn't hurt it? I'm assuming they didn't have any 'scythes or they would have slaughtered the 'brute. The necron player was relying on the gauss rule to fill his anti-tank need, and I fielded an Iron Warriors themed army. I was able to make him think the tanks were more dangerous by using big guns early, so the dreads got through and hit infantry, which had to fall back (our weapons are useless) and sweeping advance cleaned up. He did try to run, but necrons are low initiative. I should point out that I did field two brutes that game, and the other brute did next to nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Fair enough. Also, forgot about Necron Flee-fail (Mine rarely break, so.. heh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Nobody is asking what you would take in a list jeske, because it's rather obvious you wouldn't take one. does not make me unable to judge the viability of a unit . As I said before I would take a mutilator over a dread , cheaper and does the same thing [redirecting fire , tar piting] , gets better delivery in form of deep strike . But as I am a serious person and someone one 2 threads ahead may say that I said muti/dread/option X is good , I always point out that this is just a purely academical discussion. not a single advice for a new player that plays friendly games, sight . http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271530-building-a-chaos-army-for-a-new-player/ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270013-first-slaanesh-list-1500-points-to-beat-friends/ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268581-1850-list-feedback-welcome/ you made me read the chaos csm list section . No, dreads(helbrutes) are not the apex of creation in the elite slot, and the entire elite slot is rather meh at best...for tournament/competitive play aha . so makeing something big or underlined isnt enough . show me where I wrote opinions about tournament only use of dreadnoughts in this topic . Or even hinted it . But they can be good in lists depending on what your gaming group looks like. that is a lie . they are not only bad [which would disqualify them only from good lists] , but are also worse then other sub par options from the same slot . they are worse then pms as elite , they are worse then nm as elite [if someone wanted a shoting platform] , they are worse then mutilators [if someone wanted a distraction/tar pit] , non of which I would call good. And they are also worse then terminators which arent bad for an elite choice . And I'm not saying anything about how to get the points over in a listfor one dread, that is not my concern(I don't use them myself anyway) and depends much on the players preferences, but if you want to make an argument you should at least use the correct numbers in the codex... So have you tested dreads in csm armies at all to give opinions about them , because I did ? If only Games Workshop was more like a computergame company that released patches regularly re-balancing competitive games... am not sure if you know it , but till now there were 2 errate of the chaos dex , each changing the way stuff works in the dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spafe Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I jump between fielding 1,2 or no dreads. at 1000 points I find a unit of plagues accompanied by a dred with plasma cannon can do quite well at assulting objectives. I use 2 preds for long range firepower, and they normally take the focus of enemy long range heavy weps. not saying they are amazing but I find they help with armour saturation, esp at bigger games, when 2 preds, a vindi, a raider and 2 dreds plus a couple of rhinos usually means the dreds arnt hit with too much anti tank for a while as other threats kick in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 lol, Jeske, are you really saying Dreadnoughts are better than Thousand Sons? Because my win record leaves me insulted. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I quite often field a chaos robot army with 3 dreds (I really hate the 'Hellbrute' name) and 2 Defilers. It works rather well, the Dreds rampage forwards with my rhino mounted troops and the defilers provide covering fire with some cultists. Armed with Plasmacannon and H/flamers the Dreds provide some nice mobile heavy weapons fire to my advancing troops and are nasty enough in CC to make most things think twice about setting stuck in. My opponent is then caught with 3 options - 1, Shoot the Dreds. 2. Shoot the Advancing troops in Rhinos 3. Shoot the Defilers. But they need to use anti tank for all. If they try to do all three the fire-power is diluted enough to be weathered. Concentrate on the Dreds, my troops get through. Concentrate on the troops and the dreds get close and defilers blast you and then the dreds flame/assault, which is not to be sniffed at. If they go for the Defilers then my assault force gets through and carnage ensues. However I am dissappointed with the Hellbrute...They fixed the Drednaught insanity table, which I didnt really mind and didn't fix the weapon choices for both arms, which was very annoying. We would be having quite a different discussion if the sentence before the shooting weapons in the codex read "Either (or both) of the Hellbrutes arms may be exchanged for one of the following weapons". But then no one would buy the ballistic skill 3 Forgefiend would they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Dread still couldn't put out 8 S8 pinning shots.I won't lie tho and say I wouldn't really like a rifleman Dread.It's also nice to hear other people using Dreads and them not sucking, contrary to "popular" opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 While I love my Dreds, there are quite a few things about them that seem in need of an Errata. 1. 100pts is still too expensive, a Dark Angles dreadnought is 100pts and on top comes with a storm bolter, search light and, smoke launchers and does not suffer 'crazed'. 2. Why is the Reaper Auto cannon not a free upgrade? GW seems to seriously overprice the Reaper anywhere it is available as an option and don't seem to understand it is worse than a twin linked autocannon. If we look at the DA codex their dred gets an actual twin linked real Autocannon for the same price. 3. If we have to buy combi bolters for the powerfists at least let us buy combi-weapons. 4. Why doesn't the dred have access to the Chaos vehicle equipment? Havoc launchers were originally created for the dreadnoughts and dirge casters would make them quite surprising on the charge. Like I said earlier, It is almost as if GW released a kit which has a similar role and did not want the dred to compete with its sales *cough cough mauler fiend/ forge fiend* My Dreds work well for me and anyone who has faced a Blood Raging Dred with a power-flail will tell you they are not an auto lose button yet. But I feel they could have been awesome with just one or two extra words in the unit entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 How is the Reaper worse? I'm missing something. Does it have shorter range or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 How is the Reaper worse? I'm missing something. Does it have shorter range or something? S7, AP4, 36" range, Heavy 2, Twin-linked. (iirc) Sounds pretty awesome to me, too. I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Ah, yeah, it loses 8" of range over the standard Autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2) Still love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Ah, yeah, it loses 8" of range over the standard Autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2) Still love them. Well there we go then. I didn't know that offhand. I've never used Plain Jane Autocannons and they're not that prevalent in my meta, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Ah, yeah, it loses 8" of range over the standard Autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2) Still love them. Check out how much a Reaper costs on terminators and then check how much a standard autocannon costs on havocs. I don't dislike the reaper... The one on my defiler has helped me out of many a tight corner, and I would love to replace the heavy bolters on my Land Raider or put 3 on a Predator. I just object to paying over the odds for one. I dont think the Reaper is 5 points better than a multimelta. Even with the Errata points drop to 100pts Our Dred is already about 10 points too expensive compared to the DA one (smoke launchers are 5pts, search light is 1pt, storm bolter 5pts). So I see it as a bit of a slap in the face that we pay more for less effective kit with fewer options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Even with the Errata points drop to 100pts Our Dred is already about 10 points too expensive compared to the DA one (smoke launchers are 5pts, search light is 1pt, storm bolter 5pts). So I see it as a bit of a slap in the face that we pay more for less effective kit with fewer options. We already do that tho, it's called Chaos Land Raider Boringnormal. I'm used to paying more for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I am irritated by the boring 'raider too. However at least it is 20 points cheaper than the equivalent Loyalist one, but Power of the Machine Spirit is easily worth 30+ Like the Dreds I like fielding my 'Raider and they don't usually let me down but I hate fielding something that feels so generic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I am irritated by the boring 'raider too. However at least it is 20 points cheaper than the equivalent Loyalist one, but Power of the Machine Spirit is easily worth 30+ BA assault marines get their raiders for 15pts less than CSM, and they come with a machine spirit... just sayin'... Chaos seem to have got the short end of the stick once again. I think dreads are pretty weak in general for their points. Their shooting ability is fine, but I feel that they should all get 1-2 extra attacks in combat, or be A4, S6, with 'smash'. Or be able to shoot into combat. Only being able to kill 2 grots, maximum, in the second round of a combat is just plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Ah, yeah, it loses 8" of range over the standard Autocannon (48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2) Still love them. I like the "idea" of the reaper, prob bc its one of the few guns we get that the loyalist dont, but yeah, its just really over priced on termi's (25 pts..really??) , its ok priced on dreads, but dreads just arn't that good in general so it doesnt matter that its only 5 pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I like the "idea" of the reaper, prob bc its one of the few guns we get that the loyalist dont, but yeah, its just really over priced on termi's (25 pts..really??) , its ok priced on dreads, but dreads just arn't that good in general so it doesnt matter that its only 5 pts. I still think that when its replacing a multimelta 5pts is too expensive. BA assault marines get their raiders for 15pts less than CSM, and they come with a machine spirit... just sayin'... But that is only if they ditch their jumpacks and take the raider over their 'free' 35 point rhino, still a bargain if they take a crusader. I wonder what happened to all the nice characterful little rules that dreds had? Like getting bonus penetration when using twin linked weapons or being able to tear selected bits off opposing vehicles in combat, or adusting the focus on a multi melta so it could be used as a heavy flamer? Admittedly most of those rules are from quite a few editions ago, but it was nice to think of dreds not as normal walkers (where someone pilots it) but as a gigantic cyborg. The guns and weapons are not just bolted on to a Dreadnought. They are his arms and hands and he would be as skilled manipulating them as we are with our arms and fingers. Things so rarely match up to the fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hellbrutes are mad half-daemon monsters now though, so that fine control's gone out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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