Chaos Dreadnoughts; how are they doing?

[derpasaurus]

Hellbrutes are mad half-daemon monsters now though, so that fine control's gone out the window.

Just to nitpick - fine control and mental stability are not mutually exclusive. 

Just because you're mad as hell (in both senses of mad) doesn't mean you lose the ability to be precise that you've had for thousands of years. Now, if you were a lazy Dread or never reactivated, maybe. lol

[totgeboren]

Mad/insane people don't lose the ability to use their hands, and by extension weapons, even weapons which require precision. (Sadly for the rest of us.)

[*Furyou Miko]

More referring to the half-daemon monster part (although I disagree - "Make them angry to make them sloppy" is a truism).

[derpasaurus]

True, the idea that if you succumb to rage you get sloppy and make more mistakes is represented in the crazed table, too. I was thinking more along the lines of you don't get any worse at what you do, tho yeah, you could be forced to charge or stand still and shoot when it might be more beneficial to do the opposite.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've had fairly good service out of mine, though I do take 2 preds, a vindicator and rhino as well in my 1500pts thousand sons list, and with two sorcerers as well, so I may not be able to play in a tournement (though may try just to say how it goes :P).

The plasma cannon is a godsend for my Thousand sons, though do sometime take the lascannon if I know I'll be against more armoured opponents, sometimes take a missile launcher as well, but like to take the DCCW for security and to make the most of any rage result.

I'm even thinking of getting a second one or possibly a contemptor in bigger games, possibly with multie melta or twin linked heavy bolter or even 2x DCCW.

[zyl-]

Using the forgefiend as a comparison to the hellbrute is a little shakey, since they are not mutually exclusive choices. You could take both if you wanted, or you can take neither. Also, I think the crazed rule is actually worth some points, since it is more or less a way to get more damage in a turn. Unpredictable, but what is the game if not unpredictable? For all the math you do, Typhus can still turn into a spawn on turn 2, you can fail all your saves, or your opponent can roll 7 dice and get 4 6s.

 

I definatly agree the reaper autocannon is overpriced in every instance it appears in the codex.

 

edit: Also, dreads are no weak to small arms fire. They are the only elite unit this can be said about, so in my mind any armor list should certainly be taking hellbrutes.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Well, I took the twin linked lascannon last night, and did help take down my opponents land raider before getting blown up by a tactical squad marine with missile launcher (the squad was just to other guys though, they had fallen back after being caught in the open by my Thousand sons.

To be honest, the rest of his fire power had been going at my vindicator (and just missing or bouncing off) and the one turn where the tactical squad had nothing else to shoot (his land raider had been immobilised, blocking their line of sit to most of my stuff, whilst his wrecked dread blocked it to my predator and he then rolled three 6's in a row.

Has anyone had any luck with multie meltas or twin linked heavy bolters?

[zyl-]

I have had success with multimeltas either running in with other priority targets, or lingering back to catch deepstrikers.

[Aidoneus]

I have had success with multimeltas either running in with other priority targets, or lingering back to catch deepstrikers.

Agreed.

 

I run one MM, one Plasma Cannon, and one Lascannon (all with power fists) in a list with as much armor as I can squeeze in. I find the versatility helps a lot, as my 3 helbrutes can, between them, deal with most any threat out there. They're not superstars, but they fill holes in what my defilers, forgefiend, and heldrakes can accomplish.

[Night Talon]

I take 3 one plasma cannon- missile launcher, one heavy bother - power fist with heavy flamer and one with twin- linked lascannon - power fist

 

I have had good result with them, my plasma armed one took out a squad of deathwings in one turn of. Shooting

[zyl-]

I don't think i'd ever run one with a missile launcher, personally. I find that the versatility they have with a power fist is a big part of the strength they can offer a player.

[minigun762]

I have had success with multimeltas either running in with other priority targets, or lingering back to catch deepstrikers.

Are you keeping the fist or swapping to a scourge?

[zyl-]

 

I have had success with multimeltas either running in with other priority targets, or lingering back to catch deepstrikers.

Are you keeping the fist or swapping to a scourge?

The scourge is the a waste of points imo. If you are running a multimelta brute, you are looking to shoot hard targets, and by that logic you will be charging hard targets. The fist will give you the extra strength needed to get through to those targets, and while it may help to reduce WS of a hive tyrant, ws makes a far smaller impact than strength.

 

Just as a bit of a "best case" scenario to think about.. you attack a monster with ws6 and t7. The scourge reduces by 3 in this case, and you are now attacking vs ws3, so a 3+ hits and 5+ wounds. With a fist, a 5+ hits and a 2+ wounds. Now I do appreciate that this doesn't account for the defensive bonus you get from the scourge, but again, this is a best case scenario. Even if I knew I was running against 6 carnifexes, would that be worth the extra points? In far more cases, by virtue of what armies exist, you'll be trying to get through armor.

[minigun762]

The scourge is the a waste of points imo. If you are running a multimelta brute, you are looking to shoot hard targets, and by that logic you will be charging hard targets. The fist will give you the extra strength needed to get through to those targets, and while it may help to reduce WS of a hive tyrant, ws makes a far smaller impact than strength.

 

 

 

Just as a bit of a "best case" scenario to think about.. you attack a monster with ws6 and t7. The scourge reduces by 3 in this case, and you are now attacking vs ws3, so a 3+ hits and 5+ wounds. With a fist, a 5+ hits and a 2+ wounds. Now I do appreciate that this doesn't account for the defensive bonus you get from the scourge, but again, this is a best case scenario. Even if I knew I was running against 6 carnifexes, would that be worth the extra points? In far more cases, by virtue of what armies exist, you'll be trying to get through armor.

That's my thinking as well, I can't see a very effective way to use the scourge to be honest. It could be pretty cool on a Maulerfiend especially combined with the lasher tendrils but sadly we miss out on that kind of biomechanical tentacle fun...

[*Furyou Miko]

Uh, against WS6 a hellbrute is still hitting on a 4+...

[Lieutenant Steel]

And also Scourges are S8, IIRC. So you'd be hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s (with the scourge) instead of hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s (with the PF).

Anyone capable of Math-hammering those odds?


Personally I want to like the Scourge, but I don't think it's worth the points. I think it should have been 5pts, 10pts or a free swap but certainly not the 25pts it costs now- I'd rather use 25pts to pay for a twin-linked Lascannon, and I wouldn't do that in a hurry either...

[*Furyou Miko]

Math-hammer is a thing of the past, I have a computer that does it for me. In all cases, we are assuming that neither model charges.

Hellbrute with Scourge against Great Unclean One;

Assaulting

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Attacks: 2
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 1.333
Wound Chance: 66.67%
Wounds: 0.889
Saved Wounds: 0.296
Unsaved Wounds: 0.593
Models Killed: 0.119
Options: Ignore Armour

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1.333
Wounds: 0.889
Saves: 0.296
Wounds Lost: 0.593
Models Lost: 0.119 / 1 (11.9%)
Kills in I order:
I:4 0.119
-----------------------------

Hellbrute with Fist against Great Unclean One;

Assaulting

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Attacks: 2
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 1
Wound Chance: 83.33%
Wounds: 0.833
Saved Wounds: 0.278
Unsaved Wounds: 0.556
Models Killed: 0.111
Options: Ignore Armour

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Wounds: 0.833
Saves: 0.278
Wounds Lost: 0.556
Models Lost: 0.111 / 1 (11.1%)
Kills in I order:
I:4 0.111
-----------------------------

Hellbrute with Scourge against Tomb Stalker;

Assaulting

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Attacks: 2
Hit Chance: 66.67%
Hits: 1.333
Wound Chance: 66.67%
Wounds: 0.889
Unsaved Wounds: 0.889
Models Killed: 0.178
Options: Ignore Armour

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1.333
Wounds: 0.889
Wounds Lost: 0.889
Models Lost: 0.178 / 1 (17.8%)
Kills in I order:
I:4 0.178
-----------------------------

Hellbrute with Fist against Tomb Stalker;

Assaulting

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Attacks: 2
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 1
Wound Chance: 83.33%
Wounds: 0.833
Unsaved Wounds: 0.833
Models Killed: 0.167
Options: Ignore Armour

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Wounds: 0.833
Wounds Lost: 0.833
Models Lost: 0.167 / 1 (16.7%)
Kills in I order:
I:4 0.167
-----------------------------

Not sure what the GUO's initiative is, so I can't give the strikeback data for that one, but;

Tomb Stalker using Smash against Hellbrute with Scourge;

Assaulting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Attacks: 2
Hit Chance: 33.33%
Hits: 0.667
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 66.67%
Glancing Hits: 0.111
Penetration Hits: 0.444
Shaken: 0.13
Stunned: 0.093
Weapon Destroyed: 0.093
Immobilized: 0.093
Wrecked: 0.074
Explodes: 0.074

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 0.667
Glancing Hits: 0.111
Penetration Hits: 0.444
Results
Shaken: 0.13
Stunned: 0.093
Weapon Destroyed: 0.093
Immobilized: 0.093
Wrecked: 0.074
Explodes: 0.074
-----------------------------

Tomb Stalker using Smash against Hellbrute with Fist;

Assaulting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Attacks: 2
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 66.67%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.667
Shaken: 0.194
Stunned: 0.139
Weapon Destroyed: 0.139
Immobilized: 0.139
Wrecked: 0.111
Explodes: 0.111

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.667
Results
Shaken: 0.194
Stunned: 0.139
Weapon Destroyed: 0.139
Immobilized: 0.139
Wrecked: 0.111
Explodes: 0.111
-----------------------------

[Lieutenant Steel]

But are WS penalties included when using the Scourge?

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, because I told it what weapon skill was being used (with the scourge, that's WS3 for the GUO and WS1 for the Tomb Stalker).

 

... actually, damn. I miscalculated and told it the GUO was WS4. Let me fix that.

 

Edit: Actual results with corrected GUO WS reduction included in above post.

 

Basically, against the GUO, the difference between wounds caused by the Fist and wounds caused by the Scourge is a whopping 0.03 wounds in the Scourge's favour. >>

 

Against the Tomb Stalker, the difference is bigger. 0.05 wounds more - in the Fists' favour.

 

Against the Tomb Stalker, however, the Scourge does have defensive benefits (although the GUO will basically ignore it) - the difference being 0.2 penetrating hits in the Scourge's favour.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Can I ask what made you choose the GUO and Tomb Stalker as the opponents? (I'm literally just curious)

I would have thought that more common opponents for Dreads would be things like Bikers, Terminators, Assault Marine/ Any infantry with Krak grenades. I know that there isn't a 'standard' MC stat line and they are one of the things that would be engaged by Dreads on occasion, so your examples are fine.

[*Furyou Miko]

My posts were in direct response to the discussion about using a multimelta brute to hunt 'hard' targets, such as monstrous creatures with T7 - so I picked the first two T7 monstrous creatures that came to mind. ^^;

 

Against things like Marines with krak grenades, the scourge is going to be better than the fist every single time, because both weapons are then wounding on a 2+ and causing instant death (ignoring FnP) against everything except bikes, which is only really important if you're facing blood angels and their horde of FnP bikers with Sanguinary Priests, meaning that the Scourge's defensive benefits outweight the Fist's offensive ones.

[derpasaurus]

So with 1/2 of 1% being the biggest change, verdict is 'not worth 25 points'?
Or am I looking at this wrong? This IS pre-coffee...

[Lieutenant Steel]

It seems like if you want to use the Brute for hunting large targets then the Scourge is not really worth the points, although it gives you a minimal chance of reducing their WS to the point that you're more likely to survive.

Against infantry, the Scourge seems like the better choice (unless facing Blood Angels FNP Bikers) but I'm still not sure it's worth the points.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm pretty convinced it's not worth the points. ^^;

[the jeske]

a melee walker that is not a MC ... needs rules like the old BA blandernought and even then it is kind of a meh[because FW was ultra fast on removing lucius from BA lists[ .