godking Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 What would have happened if the emperor chose Perturabo to fortify the Imperial Palace instead of Dorn ? Dorn would probably not have had any issues with not being asked to fortify the palace and would simply have kept on crusading. Its Perturabo who had a vendetta against him not the other way around. I see no way that Horus could corrupt Dorn to follow him. And with Perturabo on earth doing what he likes best he does not get corrupted. Would the Word Bearers even bother to foment rebellion on Olympia ? In this timeline both of the best siege engineers would be on the loyalist side how does the heresy work out ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Had Perturabo re-designed the Imperial Palace-Fortress, it would have been a better fortress. Perturabo's brilliance as an engineer is supreme among the primarchs. Dorn and the Fists' skill at defence is more a function of their determined personality than any specific skill (IMO). Dorn and the Fists would have been content remaining a strategic reserve legion, mopping up, fixing messes, providing reinforcements etc I can't say whether or not the rebellion on Olympia would have still happened or what the result would have been. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Are we sure that Dorn wouldn't have an issue with this? Dorn was quite involved with the Emperor. I think it may leave a chink to exploit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Are we sure that Dorn wouldn't have an issue with this? Dorn was quite involved with the Emperor. I think it may leave a chink to exploit. Dorn goes where the Emperor tell him. Dorn is too unquestionably loyal to see fault with the emperors orders whatever they may be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Are we sure that Dorn wouldn't have an issue with this? Dorn was quite involved with the Emperor. I think it may leave a chink to exploit.Don't know. He might have, he might not have. From what I have read in Angel Exterminatus and the IA articles, everything between Dorn and Perturabo seemed to be rather one-sided with Perturabo being the one who made a stink because he wanted to be an architect but the Emperor kept forcing him to be the artillery commander and to simply provide long-range support. The fortresses seemed to be more of a personal hobby that spread to the Legion than an actual skill they actively developed. Although Angel Exterminatus and Iron Within try to make the case that being the best in attack allowed the Iron Warriors to become the best in defense because they could see the avenues of attack that they would take. How much of that is true is debatable and ultimately up to personal opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Are we sure that Dorn wouldn't have an issue with this? Dorn was quite involved with the Emperor. I think it may leave a chink to exploit. I don't think Dorn would have an issue with it. Dorn's defining personality trait is his selflessness. He's not a glory-seeker (personally, not necessarily the members of his Legion). He lives to be the will of the Emperor and so long as the Emperor tells him to do something, regardless of what it is, he's happy because he gets to enact the Emperor's will. Remember how the Fists were used before being recalled: a strategic reserve. That's not a particularly glorious role. It's the very opposite of being at the tip of the spear and they only ever get to show up when something's not going to plan, which of course (combined with Dorn's straight-laced personality) means the Fists' very appearance in a theater of war implies the current commander is screwing up. The Perturabo-Dorn rivalry seems pretty one-sided and is probably all in Perturabo's head, not that other primarchs didn't know about it and tweak Perturabo with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Perturabo being the one who made a stink because he wanted to be an architect but the Emperor kept forcing him to be the artillery commander and to simply provide long-range support. The fortresses seemed to be more of a personal hobby Hm, I read nothing about fire support in angel exterminatus, rather the dirty work of being the emperor's "hammer" (Perturabo's oath), i.e. "taking the hammer to the stone", razing fortesses. The Iron Warriors were thrown against the walls, then Dorn's shiny boys would come in and take all the glory. But also, the book unveils something about Perturabo's special gifts: always seeing the eye of terror. this is my personal speculation, but based on how often "applying the perfect amount of force", "feeling gravity" or "speaking to the stone" is mentioned, I take that for an ability to sense the structural integrity and "weak spot" of everything (like the eye is the weak spot in the gravitational structure of the galaxy). Combined with his fabled toughness (bile or corax mention numbed internal pain receptors in the IW geneseed, also the latin word perdurabo means "I will perservere", which is a sentiment displayed by Perturabo even in his first awakening on the walls of lochos on olympia), he could thus be considered "made" for sieges. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 It was the part where he was "reminiscing" that during the Crusade in operations that involved the IV and other Legions, he and his sons would have to build the trenches, die in the trenches and then breach the walls while other Legions actually took the fortresses. I think he even specifically mentioned on action in which he breached the walls but Dorn and the Fists took the fortress and a remembrancer made a painting of the Iron Warriors dying in the trenches while the Imperial Fists' standard was raised above the fortress. I'm not sure how accurate that is due to it being off the top of my head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 IIRC, Perturabo also had some trust issues. He felt pretty alone (which is surely also related to the awful role they were given during the great crusade) and the valor of his skills and those of his legion were only recognized by Horus (the only primarch Perturabo ever trusted). Having him build the palace would've made him feel respected for what he really is (and the palace would've been almost impossible to take). The imperium paying respect to Perturabo, who really is (with Horus) one of the main architects behind the great crusade, may have changed a lot of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Dorn's resolve and loyalty is as unbreakable as steel...which sounds like a wonderful compliment unless you've seen steel broken and re shaped at the forge. We know that it's possible to send Dorn completely off his rocker (see the discussion in the Dorn vs Perturabo: Siege Engineer thread) and that the results of said rocker going off of are...not pretty. True, it's hard to imagine what the Ruinous Powers could pull that would traumatize Dorn the way the Emperor's death did in canon, but still. That which cannot bend, breaks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 That which cannot bend, breaks. sounds to me like the epitome of Dorn's characterization. @kol: p.132/3, the war against the Araakites: "A century and more of war, where his sons had broken their backs on countless worlds, bringing the strongholds of system tyrants and alien dominators to ruin. Campaign after campaign, battle after battle, each more gruelling than the last, each hope of a war of manoeuvre or a war of marching formations cruelly dashed by fresh tasking orders to resistant systems that knew the science of fortress-building better than most. ‘Perturabo throws men at walls,’ Dorn had once said of him. ‘If the Araakites so much as thought a wall he would pelt it with our legionaries as if there were no other way.’ The words had been said in jest, grim humour in the wake of a costly war of compliance in the Araaki Spiral, to imply shared adversity, but Perturabo hadn’t seen any of Rogal Dorn’s golden warriors up to their necks in mud and :cuss in the trenches. The Araakites had known their craft, and every stronghold was dug in deep around narrow passes, remote hilltops and natural barriers in the landscape. The system rock was bitter and hostile, the enemy warriors no less so, and it had taken many years for the IV Legion to regain its former strength. Great works of art and heroic verse were composed in the wake of the victory, celebrating the courage of the Imperial Fists, the Dark Angels and the White Scars, but nowhere in the reams of poetry or artwork were the grim labours of the Iron Warriors judged worthy of note.Only in a predella to a larger work of Kelan Roget had warriors of the IV Legion even been shown, a lone Apothecary removing the gene-seed of a dying legionary as the flag of the Fists flew over a captured fortress. The Glory of the Fallen it had been called, and Perturabo had sought out the artist so he could procure the piece for himself. Roget had been thrilled at his interest, but his pleasure had turned to dismay as Perturabo put it to the torch." @Vesper:these "trust issues" are indeed the Iron Warriors' fabled paranoia - If you think about it, a feeling of insecurity would be a natural mindset for those used to finding the weak spot in every defense and even more so for their Primarch, who at each and any moment feels the gaze of the "eye of terror" (his words) resting on him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 The Glory of the Fallen it had been called IIRC that pic is in the Iron warriors IA. Considering how badly dorn took the news of horus actions at istvaan there is room to work there for the powers to corrupt and horus to Manipulate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 In The Lightening Tower, Dorn makes it clear that he does not relish the job of fortifying the Palace. He seeks to preserve it as much as possible, something that it is unlikely that Perturabo would have done. It is worth remembering that Dorn is asked to fortify something that he did not build, and I doubt that Perturabo would have done any better. I think that a Crimson Fist is worth a read, simply as it answers the question of who is the better at defensive/offensive warfare as a whole between the two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 It answers the question of who is the better at defensive/offensive warfare as a whole between the two. where exactly would that be? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 I think that a Crimson Fist is worth a read, simply as it answers the question of who is the better at defensive/offensive warfare as a whole between the two.Not exactly. Granted, Polux was probably using Dorn's teachings when he organized the fleet into defending itself, but unless Dorn was there, it can't be said which one was "better." But even then, that kind of contest would require an "even battleground," which will never happen because there is always somewhat a type of fan service, so ultimately whoever wins can be explained in a number of ways that diminish the victory itself to the opposing side although the supporting side will raise it as a banner to rally behind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3307990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Guys I love Perturabo, but he kind of sucks in naval battles (*read "the Crimson fists")......so maybe he is better in land defences, but lowly IF commander was riping him apart in space.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 the battle in space went badly because the IWs planed their attack to deal with a specific commander, Sigimund. This would seam to indicate that they prefer set peice battles and are vulnerable to a more fluid style of war. It could also indicate an inflexibility in the command structure that doesn't allow individual commanders enough independent initiative On the note of the palace I think Perturabo would have done way better simply because I don't think sentimentality would have entered into it. He would have actually managed to make the place an impregnable fortress and kept it looking all pretty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 The IW were never threatened with defeat in crimson fist, even if polux may have thought so for a moment when he had a shot at Perturabo (and we saw how tyr's attempt ended). He just managed to deal a lot more more damage than expected because Perturabo wanted Sigismund - who wasn't there because he had to atone for having lied to Dorn about his liaison with the saint of Lorgar's first holy book (lectitio divinatus) - and fleet commander Berossus fracked up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 The IW were never threatened with defeat in crimson fist. Polux just managed to deal more damage than expected because Perturabo wanted Sigismund - who wasn't there because he had to atone for having lied to Dorn about his liaison with the saint of Lorgar's first holy book (lectitio divinatus). That is more true than "Perturabo being ripped apart." IIRC, the terminology used by Polux was "We have a chance of winning."(paraphrased) There was a chance of defeat for the Iron Warriors but I do believe that the correct assessment would be "It just didn't go as planned." As soon as the Fists began to retreat, they started to become slaughtered where as when they were holding their ground and launching counter-strikes and boarding attacks, they actually had a chance of winning. Heck, they were even able to board Perturabo's ship. Granted, the boarding attack lasted a whole five seconds when it met the Lord of Iron himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Five seconds ? Damn. The son of Olympia is no joke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Well that's an exaggeration as we see Perturabo swing the first stroke of his hammer and then the next time we see him, everyone but Navarra is dead. But considering how fast he moved in Angel Exterminatus, I imagine it was very fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 The situation at Phall is not necessarily the best measurement: - first, it's in space, and neither primarch is really renowned as a void admiral. - second, one of the primarchs wasn't even there - third, their goals were at cross purposes (harrying the enemy vs. pinning them in place.) in this case, they were both succeeding - fourth, the Fists had to leave, so the whole thing was left unfinished. Basically, no one involved felt good about what happened. (and the Fists' reputation as lapdogs was dramatically reinforced.) Can you imagine if any pretty much other Legion was in the Fists' place at that time? "Jarl, Lord Russ bids us return." "No, but please make a note to remind me to smack him upside the head when we next meet." "Master, the Lion bids us return." "I see. Post-date the message receipt, wipe it from the memory banks and kill all the astropaths." "Captain, Lord Alpharius bids us return." "I see. There must be some confusion. I'm Alpharius...or am I? What day is this?" "Captain, Lord Angron bids us return." "Can't talk...killing..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 The IW were never threatened with defeat in crimson fist, even if polux may have thought so for a moment when he had a shot at Perturabo (and we saw how tyr's attempt ended). He just managed to deal a lot more more damage than expected because Perturabo wanted Sigismund - who wasn't there because he had to atone for having lied to Dorn about his liaison with the saint of Lorgar's first holy book (lectitio divinatus) - and fleet commander Berossus fracked up. We didn't read the same book... IF were winning (fact), if retreat order wasn't there...Bye, bye lord of aluminium :-), or in the best scenario IW would be pummeled pretty hard (also fact)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If fall had played out to its logical conclusion the Iron Warriors would have won but there is a real question as to weather they would have remained a credible combat force afterwards. Tactical for the IW strategic for the Fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Varas Mortez Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Dorn made the palace into a fortress, every beautiful masterpiece he was forced to deface tore at him, but he did his job diligently, Perturbo was cold and ignoble, jealous and determined to prove he was the best, he would have made the palace into a fortress, but it would have been done with no heart, just cold hearted.... Basically Dorn's one worked and was done sympathetically to the artistry of the palace, the most amazing building of all history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/#findComment-3308640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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