Emperor's Scourge Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have to agree with regards to Crimson Fist. The IF's got smashed in the beginning, began turning it around when their formations started working for them, and then got smashed when they ordered withdrawal. The IWs would have managed to wipe out the IF fleet, but it would have crippled their Legion and taken them out of the war for a good long while. I thought the story was pretty clear about this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Dorn made the palace into a fortress, every beautiful masterpiece he was forced to deface tore at him, but he did his job diligently, Perturbo was cold and ignoble, jealous and determined to prove he was the best, he would have made the palace into a fortress, but it would have been done with no heart, just cold hearted.... Basically Dorn's one worked and was done sympathetically to the artistry of the palace, the most amazing building of all history. Yes and no. After all, Perturabo's dream was to be an architect of buildings, not fortresses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 In the Lightning King, Dorn's simulations always ended in the Traitors overrunning the Palace, while when Perturabo simulates a defense of the Palace against his Warsmiths in AE he not only slaughtered the attacking forces but kept the Palace intact. Sometimes being a cold hearted monster is an advantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 IIRC, in The Lightning Tower he was running simulations against the Iron Warriors, The Night Lords, the Sons of Horus and the World Eaters with their Primarchs. Only two of those Primarchs are specially noted to have attacked the walls... And in Angel Exterminatus, it should actually be noted that when the Iron Warriors were simulating their attack using Imperial Fists tactics, it was viewed as being hopeless. I believe the exact conversation followed: "But our armies outnumber the defenders ten to one. Eventually they will get in." "Perhaps, but whoever is left standing in the Palace will be master of the largest ruin on Terra." Of course, from there we learn that if Perturabo was the defender of the Legion, in a simulated battle he would be able to defend the Palace if the enemy commander was a Warsmith. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Don't you bring your filthy logic into my cheerleading for Chaos. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 But without logic, then by what standard do we judge insanity? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 IF were winning (fact), if retreat order wasn't there...Bye, bye lord of aluminium :-), or in the best scenario IW would be pummeled pretty hard (also fact)... you falsely extrapolate subjective statements as facts (fact). 1) Polux in his command seat thinking they are "winning" is a momentary impression, not fact. 2) Berossus acknowledging the IW's advantage dwindling to the point of the IF even gaining an "upper hand" isn't winning. 3) Perturabo at the end reading the "likely outcome" if the IF hadn't retreated and smashing the console does not hint at a possible IF victory. It just means that they managed to outmaneuvre him and could have dealt way more damage than expected before being overwhelmed. The iron blood (with perturabo on it) could have been destroyed, but instead they boarded it, which never had any chance of succeeding (fact: see what happened to Tyr). IW victory was never in question, just the cost of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 But without logic, then by what standard do we judge insanity? Logic isn't sane or insane, only true or false. The insanity of a conclusion depends on the insanity of its premises. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If the emperor had chosen Perturabo, then the siege of terra would of been alot different. I could imagine him sealing the palace air-tight and then virus bombing the traitors as they landed. Thats one thing that makes Dorn the lesser candidate for siege warfare, he has a code of honor, honor doesn't belong in sieges. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3308845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Based on Angel Exterminatus Perturabo does have a sense of honour, without doing any spoilers there is an incident were he treats a loyalist Force with honour and respect, admittedly it's just after the Loyalists have just dealt a major blow to a fellow traitor Primarch Perturabo is angry with but still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3315344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The more I've read the more I've become a fan of Dorn but I think some are being too generous to him. His descendants are known for their stubbornness and pride and I think that had to come from him. If he had been passed over the wound to his pride could have been a chink in his moral/spiritual armour. Also, as mentioned, Dorn was loathe to change the palace, he saw it as desecration. Without that sentimentality, just ruthless pragmatism, Perturabo could probably have done at least as good if not better a job of the fortification and the honour would have helped restore his broken ego. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3315936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 There is a another factor at play in that Perturbo the frustrated architect would relish the chance the chance to create the greatest Palace/Fortress in the galaxy, that would bind him tighter to the Emperor than the simple honour of being chosen as his Praetorian. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3315957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 There is a another factor at play in that Perturbo the frustrated architect would relish the chance the chance to create the greatest Palace/Fortress in the galaxy, that would bind him tighter to the Emperor than the simple honour of being chosen as his Praetorian. ^This. Also, if Olympia had rebelled and Perturabo had all of his Legion on Terra (bar those who maintain the fortresses he build on conqured worlds) he would never be able to go to Olympia to sort it out as Malcador, the Custodes or the Emperor would have noticed and so he would have had to ask another Legion to take care of it (and there were none he was too friendly with) or ask Malcador/the Emperor/Horus for advise, and most likely the former two as they would probably know as soon as Horus tried to tell Perturabo in secret. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3315977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 The Emperor chooses Perturabo for strengthening Imperial Palace. Perturabo gets resented for being tied to unnecessary work while his brothers (esp. Dorn) making glorious conquests. In addition to this, his loses his home world to rebels. -----> He turns traitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3316675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Homeworld was already lost. Perturabo had a dream of wanting to be an architect. Hated the fact that he and his Legion were stuck living in trenches day after day while other Legions claimed the glories that should have been theirs. --> Most likely would not have turned Traitor if he had been allowed to build the Palace as it would have gotten his Legion out of the trenches, even if only for a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3316691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 The Emperor chooses Perturabo for strengthening Imperial Palace. Perturabo gets resented for being tied to unnecessary work while his brothers (esp. Dorn) making glorious conquests. In addition to this, his loses his home world to rebels. -----> He turns traitor. Read Angel Exterminatus, like Kol_Saresk said Perturabo was really bored of siege warfare and wanted to be an architect. Give him the commission to rebuild the Imperial Palace and he'd be as happy as kitten in a bowl of cream. As for Olympia the revolt there was caused by the Word Bearers in a (successful) plot to tip Perturabo over the edge. If he's happily fortifying the Palace Lorgar will probably write him off as a lost cause meaning the Olympian revolt might not even happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3316959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Whilst Peturabo was an architect before a builder of fortresses, do we wonder then if he would have gottn distracted? In The Lightning Tower war is close at hand and Dorn still isn't finished fortifying - and he's just trying to preserve what beauty he can, not all of it. Peturabo on the other hand would either have to make all of his fortifications and alterations as graceful and majstic as the rest of the Palace, or else place so many fortifications on it that it was no longer the Imperial Palace but a different, beautifully functional, fortress. Imho Peturabo's fortress would have ben vastly superior, boasting a huge array of kill-zones, minefields, dead-end fortresses and all manner of convoluted defences, but I doubt that it would've been completed in time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goosey_j Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just out of interest, where is it said that the Word Bearers cause the rebellion on Olympia? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just out of interest, where is it said that the Word Bearers cause the rebellion on Olympia?I have not a clue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Personally, Perturabo to fortify the Palace while Dorn organises the actual defences would have worked better. Dorn was the Emperors shield, and he played the role the best he could, but the Palace was a distraction. How many would have rallied to Dorns banner if he had the chance to go and get the other loyalists to his side? It would also have meant that Perturabo would have finished the Palace on time, as he would have Dorn looking over his shoulder and pride would not ave allowed for failure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just out of interest, where is it said that the Word Bearers cause the rebellion on Olympia?I have not a clue. Wasn't it in one of the limited edition books? I vagually remember someone mentioning on another thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 If it is, then it's a chapbook or something from a BL event or it's from Collected Visions , which from the quotes I have seen, it doesn't exactly agree with the established background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just out of interest, where is it said that the Word Bearers cause the rebellion on Olympia?I have not a clue. No need for a clue. A rebellion leading a legion to damnation. Who could be the conspirator? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 you? the emperor? jim carrey? Justin Bieber? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just out of interest, where is it said that the Word Bearers cause the rebellion on Olympia?I have not a clue. No need for a clue. A rebellion leading a legion to damnation. Who could be the conspirator? Alpharius? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271444-what-happens-if-the-emperor-choses-perturabo/page/2/#findComment-3317909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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