Deathwing Land Raider

[Boniface]

I don't want to be accused of trying to be underhanded or anything this is just a point of discussion.

 

If I choose a land raider as a heavy support option for my army then use it to transport deathwing but not purchase it as a dedicated transport for them do I have to purchase the compulsory upgrade?

 

Having read the rules it state it is only required if it is purchased as a dedicated transport and I don't know of any rule that suggests I cant use generic army transports for any unit (although it's not common as most transports are dedicated).

I also don't know of any rule that say if you have item (x) then it must be a transport for unit (y).

 

Is this possible?

[Pbenner]

Only if it's purchased as a dedicated transport do you have to spend the extra 30 points.  If you don't purchase it as a dedicated transport, you can field it with any unit in it, but if it's in reserves, it, and the unit you have in it, are separate for the purposes of reserve rolls.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Paul

[Wraithwing]

Which is cool, as I happen to prefer green Land Raiders over bone :)

 

Cheers, 

 

WW

[PensacolaWarhammer]

Actually, according to the FAQ that had everyone talking a couple of weeks ago, you can take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport for your Deathwing and not buy the Deathwing upgrade.

 

Page 104 – Land Raiders (all), options.
They do not have to be taken as a Dedicated Transport to have
this upgrade, so change the last option for each Land Raider to:
“• May be upgraded to a Deathwing Vehicle (p40).........XX p t s”

 

 

[Jehoel]

Actually, your reading that wrong. The codex doesn't give the option of taking the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade without being a Dedicated Transport for Deathwing, so that FAQ just added the option for a Heavy Support Land Raider to take the upgrade.

[EPK]

If you don't purchase it as a dedicated transport, you can field it with any unit in it, but if it's in reserves, it, and the unit you have in it, are separate for the purposes of reserve rolls.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Paul

That's a little off. They come in on the same reserve roll. That's how transports work regardless of if they are dedicated. They do each count towards you 50% max reserve count as opposed to a unit and its dedicated transport counting as one.

 

For your convenience:

"Similarly, the player must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they will arrive together." Pg. 124

[elphilo]

 

If you don't purchase it as a dedicated transport, you can field it with any unit in it, but if it's in reserves, it, and the unit you have in it, are separate for the purposes of reserve rolls.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Paul

That's a little off. They come in on the same reserve roll. That's how transports work regardless of if they are dedicated. They do each count towards you 50% max reserve count.

Yep, page 124 of the BRB, last paragraph of Preparing Reserves if you're curious to read it :)

 

As to the OP, yes you can use a Heavy Support Land Raider to transport Deathwing without the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade. As others have said before you're only required to purchase the upgrade if it is a Dedicated Transport for a Deathwing Unit. So you save 30 points but take a heavy support slot.

[Diavlo]

Actually, your reading that wrong. The codex doesn't give the option of taking the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade without being a Dedicated Transport for Deathwing, so that FAQ just added the option for a Heavy Support Land Raider to take the upgrade.

 

 

I don't agree that you have to pay for upgrade if its dedicated transport for Deathwing.

 

Lets look at the codex and FAQ.

FAQ Page 104 - Land Raiders (all)

"They do not have to be taken as a Dedicated Transport to have this upgrade, so change the last option for each Land Raider to:" - this part is what you told

but when you read further you have significant change:

- MAY be upgraded to a Deathwing Vehicle (p40)..... 30pts"

Now lets to to the Codex:

- If selected as a Dedicated Transport for a Deathwing Terminator squad, Deathwing Command Squad or a unit of Deathwing Knights, it must be upgraded to a Deathwing Vehicle (pg40) .... 30pts

- May be upgraded to a Deathwing Vehicle (p40) .... 30pts (at page 40 we have explained Deathwing Vehicle rules)

We lost MUST we have MAY.

Now

 lets look at page 99 for example Deathwing terminator squad:

Deathwing terminator squad may select a land raider of any type as a dedicated Transport (pg104). This vehicle myst be given the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade at additional cost.

So now it seems like we have two rules that takes out each other, but no. Here it clearly states that its better described at page 104 and when we look at page 104 we have :

- May be upgraded to a Deathwing Vehicle (p40) .... 30pts 

You have to notice that at page 99 we don't have any point values for that upgrade and that upgrade is voluntary if you look at FAQ'ed rules.

 

Or not.

 

Would be much easier if GW have printed final version not 0.94.

[elphilo]

Uhhh, when you take it as a dedicated transport for a Deathwing unit you MUST take the Deathwing Vehicle Upgrade at additional cost. That cost is then in Land Raider option. The only thing that was changed because of the FAQ is actually making Land Raiders taken as Heavy Supports have the option of becoming Deathwing Vehicles. I don't understand how the FAQ negates the mandatory upgrade imposed by the Deathwing Unit entries. Think of it like this, I buy my Deathwing unit and want to buy a land raider as a dedicated transport. Because I want it as a dedicated transport that "may" in the Land Raider profile now becomes a "must." The only way I can get around this mandatory upgrade is if I want to buy it as a separate Heavy Support. I don't think it can be any clearer.

[Diavlo]

I'll still send FAQ team a letter as always. 

[Brother dean]

Why?   Deathwing Squad didnt change.  Go read page 99 which is what elphilo is referencing.

[Diavlo]

Why?   Deathwing Squad didnt change.  Go read page 99 which is what elphilo is referencing.

 

Like i said before and even quoted it. For me its obsolete as its referring to page 104 and at page 104 you have may not must.

[elphilo]

But page 99 turns that May into a Must. You're overlooking the condition of the Deathwing unit. I mean you even quoted it in your original post. The FAQ doesn't touch the Deathwing Unit's entry for a dedicated Land Raider. It only gives the Land Raider taken as a Heavy Support the option to become a Deathwing Vehicle.

[Diavlo]

But page 99 turns that May into a Must. You're overlooking the condition of the Deathwing unit. I mean you even quoted it in your original post. The FAQ doesn't touch the Deathwing Unit's entry for a dedicated Land Raider. It only gives the Land Raider taken as a Heavy Support the option to become a Deathwing Vehicle.

 

You are probably right, but I'll still send them a letter. Maybe next time they will print finished product.

[Brother dean]

If you want to avoid paying the points, Just buy the LR as an UN-Dedicated transport and it will fill a Heavy Support slot.  Then you can put Termies, Vets, Scouts or whatever in it but you can only bring 3.  The beauty of having it Dedicated is that it does not take up a slot that you can put a Vindi or a Pread in.

[Diavlo]

If you want to avoid paying the points, Just buy the LR as an UN-Dedicated transport and it will fill a Heavy Support slot.  Then you can put Termies, Vets, Scouts or whatever in it but you can only bring 3.  The beauty of having it Dedicated is that it does not take up a slot that you can put a Vindi or a Pread in.

 

I know I can. The thing is that after they forgot to take out testing rules for Nephilims Missile lock and all other mistakes they made. I threat all rules as probably wrong. After reading the codex few times its clear that it wasn't supposed to be printed in that form. Maybe Must rule is also mistake like missile lock. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

haha: That is a valid stance; the dex is a shambles in that regard.

But we gotta go with what they wrote, even when they don't mean it or else we are deemed underhanded ;)

I can't back that up; just expressing my long disapointment with GWs rule writing :P

 

s

[PensacolaWarhammer]

I plan on calling GW about this problem tomorrow. I'm in the camp with Diavio as the FAQ doesn't clearly state if that MAY is for all Landraiders or only Landraiders that are taken as Heavy Support. You have two rules/requirements that contradict and befuddle each other. As Diavio and Stobz pointed out, it's probably a good stance to to take most of the rules in the codex as having some kind of flaw.

 

I personally feel it would be dumb to penelize players for wanting to take a Landraider for their Deathwing, but then again this codex does seem to penelize players for taking a lot of things *cough* Blade of Caliban *cough* Ravenwing Command Squad *cough* banners *cough*. If I had to take an educated guess, I would say that the Deathwing vehicle rule was going to be an upgrade for vehicles, and that Deathwing transports would have the Deathwing vehicle rule given to them for free. I guess that might make to much scense, or in the new way GW is make codices, be considered overpowered.

[march10k]

I'm confused on two points:

 

1.  Why would you NOT want a venerable land raider?  They're expensive as hell, and durable as hell...a 12% price hike to make them DAMNED hard to kill sounds fantastic!

 

2.  Why would you want to put a land raider in reserves?

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@march10k

 

I personally wouldn't want to spend an extra 12% in points just to get the Preferred Enemy rule and the Venerable rule both of which doesn't exactly help the Landraider. Yes, you have the ability to re-roll the damage on the pin table, but there's the possiblity of rolling a worse result. Basically, unless your oppoient rolls vehicle destroyed or explosion, you're probably not going to be utilizing this rule. Second is the Preferred Enemy. I get to re-roll 1's against Chaos Space Marines. If I'm playing against anything OTHER THAN Chaos Space Marines, this rule is a waste. All weapons on the Landraider, besides the Flame Storm Cannons, Storm Bolter, and Multi-melta, are twin linked, so I would get re-rolls anyway. Finally, I don't know about you, but I generally only have a single dice, maybe two at the most, that turn up as a 1.

 

In summary, Dark Angels have to pay more for their Terminator Landraiders than anyother army, and they are give a lackluster "reward" for it. This will basically force players to either walk their Terminators across the board or Deep Strike them.

 

As for your question about keeping a Landraider in reserves, I agree. I have no idea why you do that.

[EPK]

Army list building is all about min/maxing things. 30 points can certainly be spent somewhere else.

 

At least in 5th, holding a LR in reserves was a viable option to avoid alpha-strike suicide melta shenanigans. I had a friend's SW list that always included such a squad in a DP (though I can't remember a specific time I held the raider in reserve). I've did however hold a LR in reserve against a full drop pod BA army. I simply castled up, held my ground and the LR came in to break the siege. With all the pods, I just kept racking up the KPs. I'll admit, it was kind of a ineffective army, especially in KP games and he even had to use red solo cups to represent all his damn pods, lol. I don't think he ever used that list again.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@EPK

 

Your point hits home nicely on the building a list. I'm curious how things would work if the Landraiders started cheaper, but the Deathwing vehicle upgrade would bring them up to the same point value as all other Landraiders? Would that be concidered broken or cheese?

[EPK]

I'd rather just see the price reduced 10-15 points.

[march10k]

I get the beef with preferred enemy, although slapping that onto some flamestorm cannons sounds delicious!  But venerable...well, I think it's worth the points.  I agree that you'll be rerolling 6s...but under many circumstances, I'd be rerolling 5s, as well.  The main purpose of a land raider, at least in my list, is to deliver a squad of terminators into the jaws of hell, come what may.  Immobilized is nearly always just as bad as destroyed.  Given that everything that can pen AV14 is at least AP2, and the most common stuff is AP1, you're going to be rerolling that pen result a lot more often than 1/6 of the time, even if you only reroll 6+s.  Look at it this way...against a pen from a melta weapon (4+ to explode), it cuts your chance to explode from 50% to 25%.  That's DEFINITELY worth 30 points on a 250 point vehicle.  And against lascannons, it's even better...you only have a 1/9 chance of exploding on a pen (versus 1/3), and if you reroll an immobilized (again, advisable only if immobilization means probable defeat), you have a 50% chance of getting something other than immobilized or explodes.

[Chaplain Killmer]

Well to me it would make perfectly sense that you have the improved option (compared to C:SM) to field landraiders as dedicated transports for our terminator units. Most of the times having more options comes with a price. In our case its the points that you have to invest to keep your heavy support slots open.

 

Now you can buy the Deathwing upgrade for all your landraiders if you want. You can say ok but I can't profit from that against all armies. But hey all your Deathwing units are operating only at 100% if they are up against chaos space marines too. Else they are fine too - but can't use all their strengths.