Deathwing Land Raider

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@march10k

Fair points to concider, but I still think HAVING to upgrade the Landraider is forcing my hand to Deep Strike the terminators. I can't say if GW did this intenionally or not. The rule itself I don't have a problem with, but give me the option to CHOOSE.

 

@Chaplain Killmer

I completely understand that more options come with a price, and I don't mind having the option. However, as I stated to march10k, I would like to treat as an option and decided whether or not to take it. As for the point about the Deathwing operationg at 100%, I can't agree with you more. I think the idea is interesting and fluffy, which is why I try not to complain too much, but it I think it specialize the army to much. I think of a year from now; how often will this rule get utilize? Couldn't there been something a touch better? Couldn't it be an option to purchase too?

[Brother dean]

_{It is an option to choose....   If you are running the LR as Heavy Support.} 

 

_{If you dont want the Land Raider to take a force org slot there is a 30pt surcharge and you get a re-roll on the Pen hit chart...  How much is it worth to you to be able to field 3 LRs AND 3 Vindis?}

_{Is this FAIR compared to the blue book and the silver that can do it for free (check actual codexes for legality)?  No.  But we are Dark Angels, We are used to not being treated FAIR...  Is this another push to make us change our meta towards DWA?  Well, look at the buffs we get for DSing.  Twin Linked, Split fire, Squad Belial is in can charge?...  I'd say yes they are trying to limit our Land Raider purchases (which the mold is paid for) towards more Termies (which the new DW mold is not paid for yet)}

 

_{The same way that Belial is a surcharge to move DW squads from Elite to Troop.}

[EPK]

I have to agree with Brother Dean, Pensacola. You do have the option. Just run them as heavy support and use them to transport DW. If your list revolves around multiple LRs and as much heavy support as you can pack, plan on spending 30-90+ points for that luxury. I agree it gets costly, but the option is open.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@Brother dean

 

I can't really answer your question about what the worth it would be to take 3 Landraiders and 3 Vindicators since I've been trying to see what I can do with the Dark Angels codex without having to be lead by the hand to pick pure Ravenwing or Deathwing. However, as you pointed out, we are Dark Angels, and we are never treated fairly. I think this is the underlining problem that I have with the Dark Angels codex. Given the previous codices that were released before the new Dark Angels one, I was expecting this to be something really great and unique. A codex that would truly make Dark Angels a special army. Instead, I think history will repeat itself with this codex, and this time next year I'll be playing green Ultramarines.

 

Enough of that though on to the meat of your response. I do have a feeling that given the buffs for Deep Striking Deathwing and the cost of taking a Landraider for Deathwing is a push to change the meta. I have a problem with that. Why can't I be given the opportunity and freedom to decide? That's what I'm driving at.

 

@EPK

As i just stated above, I do understand I have the option to choose the Deathwing option if I take Landraiders as Heavy Support, and to a certain point, I'm alright with it. I just think 30 points on top of 250 for middle of the road bonuses is pushing things. I think, like many things in the Dark Angels codex, it could have been implemented in a better way. Of course this is a small issue since most of the time I've only ever seen one Landraider in an army.

[Brother dean]

I can just barely bring a three raider, three DW squads at under 1750.  Under the old rules I got a dread with it too tho....  :(

[EPK]

I see your point Pensacola. It's not so much that the option doesn't exist but rather that the rules are pushing us towards deep striking. Depending on what you want to field of course.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

I think we are all on the same page.

 

@Brother dean

I didn't play Deathwing in the previous codex. I was a Ravenwing man then. However, I would like the Landraiders to as affordable as Landraiders can get in order to take some Deathwing Knights or Deathwing Assault terminators.

 

@EPK

That is what has frustrated me the most about this codex. The rules pushing me to make a certain choice. That's not creation. That's not a custom, unique army. That's programming.

[Jehoel]

This codex, unlike the old one, "pushes" us to go more mixed-wing than mono-wing. That is something that I like to see. Right now we are still comparing this codex against 5th ed codexes without knowing what changes they will get. However based on the C:CSM and C:DA, I think we will be much happier with things as time goes on.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@Jehoel

 

I completely agree with you. You're right we are compairing the Dark Angels codex to the 5th edition one. I still don't know about mixed-wing. I've only gotten a couple of games in with the codex where I purposefully avoided the mono-wing idea. The army performed "meh". Can't really make much of judgment as I'm still tinkering around with different units. I just hope you're right that we will be happy as time goes on.

[march10k]

@march10k

Fair points to concider, but I still think HAVING to upgrade the Landraider is forcing my hand to Deep Strike the terminators. I can't say if GW did this intenionally or not. The rule itself I don't have a problem with, but give me the option to choose.

But you do have the option. If you don't want the upgrade, take them as heavy support! How many land raiders do you need? If you're spamming land raiders, how much other heavy stuff do you need? Given the choice between the land raider situation in the old dex and the new one, I'm thrilled! I can have 14 land raiders in a single FOC!!! Being forced to take an upgrade after the third tank is a really, really small thing to be whining about. I had kind of hoped for a (30 point?) upgrade to be melta-resistant (reduce the second die to a D3, or change melta to "2d6, choose the highest, +1, or eliminate the +2 on the damage table, or something), but venerable alone is very nice, preferred enemy is just a fluffy bonus!

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@march10k

 

I know that the option exsits if I take Landraiders as Heavy Support. My list wouldn't be spamming Landraiders. I even admitted that it is a relatively small complaint. However, given the rather queer and head scratching things that are given in the rest of the codex: Blade of Caliban being Unweildy, Ravenwing Command Squad only having 3 guys, Banners that can be sniped without the ability to be picked up, Assault Squad sergeant doesn't have access to a combat shield, and the list could go on. My main problem with the Deathwing upgrade, when compaired to the list that I just gave, punishes me for taking an option. It forces my hand to take something else, use the unit in a different way, or take the unit in a different slot. I don't have the freedom to decided how I would like to utilize the unit.

 

I completely understand the fluff logic behind the option and rule, and I accept it. To be truthful, I'm even alright with it. I just believe it could have be implemented better. Start the Landraiders cheaper and make the Deathwing option bring it to the same point value as other Landraiders. Give the Deathwing special and unique Landraiders. Beef up the Deathwing rule so it doesn't feel some much like a penality. These are just a few quick examples on how I think the Deathwing vehicle could have been handled.