Long Fang alternatives

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Hey all! I am a new 40k and table top gamer. I'm still in my beginning and learning stages, but.. I'm starting to find out really quick that I don't think I like the Long Fangs much. (Flame suit on? =P)

Does anyone have any reccomendations on what I could use as Alternatives.

My thoughts are, and It could be my lack of know better or sense, but the only game they did well for me was a game against another new guy at the game store who had nids. I had a CML WG with the LF Pack and it performed really well. The past few games however they haven't been the awesome long range support I like (and need) in my Army. So far the way I like to run my Army is to leave my grey hunters back on objectives while my long range heavy support units (Godhammer and LF) thin out the Enemy. I Usually roll with Logan as my HQ so I have scoring WG and those guys are usually my Deathstar units. I Also drop off a drop pod with a TDA Pack of 3 or 4 to gets some distraction units in my opponents face to concentrate on for a turn or so. Anyway, the Godhammer has usually been a much better performer for me than my Long Fangs have... I feel like they accent each other well but I am starting to feel like I wouldn't want to use the Long Fangs for anything more than another supplement. Right now I am considering the viability of Predators and Landraiders for the long range heavy support roles. Thoughts?

[MeatGrinder]

Its unusual that you're not having success with longfangs. How do you run them? With all MLs? They should be doing better than the LR against anything thats not AV14. Is it just bad dice rolls? Are they getting shot up too fast?

Theyre just a really, really good value unit. 5 dudes with 4 Mls is 115 points, and they have split fire, allowing you to pop multiple transports or frag one squad and pop a krak at that IC running about.

 

The problem with Preds is that they are just meh overall. Theyre expensive for what you get. If you want the lascannons, and dont want the LF, I'd reccommend taking a few small units of GH in Razors with lasplas turrets. Cheap, versatile and get your dudes onto objectives fast. Its also a good opportunity to take more GH. You always want GH.

[dswanick]

Hey all! I am a new 40k and table top gamer. I'm still in my beginning and learning stages, but.. I'm starting to find out really quick that I don't think I like the Long Fangs much. (Flame suit on? =P)

 

Does anyone have any reccomendations on what I could use as Alternatives.

 

My thoughts are, and It could be my lack of know better or sense, but the only game they did well for me was a game against another new guy at the game store who had nids. I had a CML WG with the LF Pack and it performed really well. The past few games however they haven't been the awesome long range support I like (and need) in my Army. So far the way I like to run my Army is to leave my grey hunters back on objectives while my long range heavy support units (Godhammer and LF) thin out the Enemy. I Usually roll with Logan as my HQ so I have scoring WG and those guys are usually my Deathstar units. I Also drop off a drop pod with a TDA Pack of 3 or 4 to gets some distraction units in my opponents face to concentrate on for a turn or so. Anyway, the Godhammer has usually been a much better performer for me than my Long Fangs have... I feel like they accent each other well but I am starting to feel like I wouldn't want to use the Long Fangs for anything more than another supplement. Right now I am considering the viability of Predators and Landraiders for the long range heavy support roles. Thoughts?

First off, what's a "Godhammer"? ;)  I'm thinking you mean a Land Raider (or Phobos pattern Land Raider if you must clarify the distinction).  You might be getting confused by the Phobos pattern's mounting of "Godhammer pattern Lascannons" in the sponsons...

Anyway, light-hearted ribbing aside.

 

It sounds like you are investing an aweful lot of points into a few high-cost units (Logan 275pts, Land Raider 250pts), and not receiving the expected return on your investment.  What size force are you using?  A quick list of your army would be helpful in sorting out weaknesses.

 

That said.  My experience has been you have to pick a style and go with it.  Either 3 units of Long Fangs (with/without Transports, I usually run them with), or 3 AV Heavy Support choices (Land Raiders/Predators/Demolishers).  As a wise man once said "You walk middle of road, squish - just like grape".

[montegue]

A friend and I were talking about this yesterday. He's not of the opinion that missiles are the way to go, mostly because he thinks our infantry should be killing infantry, and our longfangs should focus on armor and vehicles. Lascannons are more expensive, but they crush light vehicles and have a decent chance at popping things like land raiders and what not. A lucky snap shot can take out a flyer, as well, especially if you're giving them rerolls with precience.

If you're seeing a lot of infantry, then missiles are the way to go. Use them to soften up enemy units before your Grey Hunters charge.

 

But, yeah, don't give up on them. Put them someplace safe (ideally behind an Aegis Defense line with your seargant on the Quad Gun) or into a building on muitiple levels (to minimize the amount of damage a helldrake or other template weapon can do to them) and with good line of sight, and prioritize your targets. If you are having trouble penetrating, use las cannons. If you want to really smoke infantry, switch to plasma cannons.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Ya, I think I was reading on the Space Wolves blod site that the Land Raider Phobos pattern was known as the 'Godhammer' ... Anyway

The Army list I have had a little success out of is

HQ-Logan Grimnar
HQ-WG
Arjac
WG-TDA,AC,SS
WG-TDA, Dual Wolf Claw
WG-TDA, Storm Bolter, Chainfist
WG-TDA, Combi-Melta, PW
 

Land Raider (Crusader/Redeemer depending on scenario)

Troop
 

WG-Squad
WG-TDA,AC,CF
WG-Dual Wolf Claw
WG-Combi Plasma, SS
Drop Pod

Grey Hunter Pack
9 GH, Melta
WG, Storm Bolter

Grey Hunter Pack
9 GH, Flamer
WG, Storm Bolter

 

Fast Attack
2 TWC (don't remember the kit on the two)

Heavy Support

LF
2 ML, 2 LC, Sergeant
WG-TDA, Cyclone, SS, Storm Bolter

Land Raider
Storm Bolter

All of it came in at 2,000 pts. I really liked the list, the LR last till about the 3rd or 4th turn and took down a MC and wounded another two and made them really easy to kill for my death star squad and other units. LF did do well.. but more accented and Supplemented the LR. They were deployed on opposite sides of the board.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

@montegue

Missile Launchers aren't simply for fighting infantry. I use them to stick down any AV12 or lower, and even at AV13 they do damage, esp. with my 8 firing into it. My Long Fangs 'duel' with enemy heavy support, kill them, and then strike with impunity at the enemy forces. It is a very, very rare game that the Long Fangs don't make a huge difference. I'm not sure how yours aren't doing much. My Long Fangs are 6 in number, 4 with Rockets and one with a Lascannon. I have two packs like that inside an ADL with an Icarus, and they are like a rock upon which the enemy are broken upon. No quarter! 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Ya, well... the best my Long Fangs do is against Infantry. The last game I played it was against grey knights.. 1500 pt game. My Long Fangs did nothing. They barely wounded his dread Knights and the Lascannon LFs could not do anything to his Phobos Landraider. It was pretty pittiful. I understand the worth of the Long fangs and I would never completely delete them from my Army lists, but I am not convinced they need to fill all of my HW slots. I know Tanks took a big hit in the 6th edition but I do really like using tanks and they have definitely done well for me. I do not own any Predators as of yet, since they are considerably cheaper than my beloved land raiders I am probably going to pick one or two up and see how they work in my battle scheme.

[MeatGrinder]

You need more troops, really, we pride ourselves on having the best basic troops in the game, and you've only got 18. I have twice and a half that in my list.

 

Land raider phobos is known as the Godhammer because its defining feature is the twin Godhammer lascannons in its sponsons. Its actual name isnt well known nor is it mentioned frequently, even in the Index astertes for LRs it was only mentioned once or twice, however the Godhammers were mentioned and are always mentioned more frequently. The name just stuck. Plus Phobos is that derpy moon around Mars, not a name for the brick:cusshouse on wheels that is a landraider. This thing can drive through lava and you want to name it after some wonky moon.

 

I think lascannons are worth it only if you're expecting a lot of AV14, IG tank companies etc. Otherwise MLs are the way to go, more versatile, being able to frag large units and units in cover, or popvehicles, instagib marines out of cover and maybe soon take Flakks to pop fliers. They also can pop AV14, needing 6s rather than the Lascannons 5s. Theyre also cheaper. From a minmax point of view, MLs are much better bang for your buck.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Hey everyone, I never said thanks for the replies, I sure appreciate it.

By basic troops do you mean Power Armored Marines alone? I have decided my Army is going to be an Egil Iornwolf Great Company and I will certainly have more Grey Hunters (if that's what you meant by basic troops) in my lists to come. I just went crazy over the Terminator models and at the beginning had more of those than Grey Hunters.

I understand in a logical sense why LF are a good unit so don't worry about convincing me. Like I said I'm not doing away with them, just looking for a different way to implement them. Do you have any other reccomendations that I could feasibly and viably run that aren't LF. Objectively I want to use armor effectively; Subjectively armor fits what I want to do with my fluff.

[MeatGrinder]

Like I said, Razorbacks with small squads of GH. 200 points for 6 GH with MotW, Wolf Standard and Melta in a RB with Lasplas. Gives you 6" of movement, 6" of disembark with either a lascannon shot or twinlinked plasma shots. Remember the other weapon can fire snapshots too. I use 3 of these squads to support my podding wolves.

Razorwolves used to be popular, with some lists fielding up to 8 of these squads.

 

Grey Hunters are what I mean by basic troops. Amazing troop choice, Marines with counterattack that can take the standard of overpowered rerolls and Mark of the d6+1 Rending attacks. Usually, Wolves arent so good at being either a full-on shooty army, or a full-on combat army. We're kind of in between. You shoot at things with big guns until troops fall out, then shoot the troops with bolters and plasma. You then get charged and beat their troops in combat while avoiding and shooting anything that can beat you in combat.

 

If you really dont want longfangs then your options are a bit limited. The landraider is fine, but its a bit expensive to be used as a firebase, its build to be on the move, delivering troops, and for that Id usually prefer a crusader or redeemer. I'd say drop the LF and grab two Preds with AutoC and HBs. Remember two is better than one with tanks most of the time. Your opponent likely won't kill both of them in one turn.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

What do you all think about running a Long Fang Pack, a Dakka Predator, and a Vindicator for he Heavy Support slots as opposed to running with two Predators. Or what  about two Vindicators and the Long Fangs? Those are two options I have been considering. In the 2000 pt list I was working on I was able to fit in 2 Rhinos and 2 Razorbacks in addition to those options afore mentioned, there is also one land raider in the Army since Fluff wise Egil Iornwolf rides around in his own Land Raider...

[Grey Mage]

I tend to run my Long Fangs with a pair of missile launchers, but also a pair of lascannons for those pesky 2+ armor saves *like tau broadsides for example* and that AV 14 that pops up from game to game. I hate having to try and glance a landraider to death with weight of fire.

 

I swear, the extra 30pts is very well spent.

 

For extra missiles I look to my FA slots and snag a typhoon or two, and in the HS slot Ill get some extra anti-horde firepower with a Whirlwind. Nothing beats the 1-2 punch of popping open an enemy transport and then hammering it with the Whirlwind. The cover-ignoring shot has come in handy alot with the rise of the aegis defense line, not that it ever really went out of style.

[Squark]

What do you all think about running a Long Fang Pack, a Dakka Predator, and a Vindicator for he Heavy Support slots as opposed to running with two Predators. Or what  about two Vindicators and the Long Fangs? Those are two options I have been considering. In the 2000 pt list I was working on I was able to fit in 2 Rhinos and 2 Razorbacks in addition to those options afore mentioned, there is also one land raider in the Army since Fluff wise Egil Iornwolf rides around in his own Land Raider...

The Vindicator is definitely the better pick over a dakka pred. For 2k, though, 4 light hulls feels a bit slight- I'd find another rhino or two for that.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

not trying to sound flippant, but with one land raider and two battle tanks, you still think 4 light hulls it too slight?

 

Genuinely trying to find information, I'm new like I said..

[Grey Mage]

Unless youre meta is full of Tau and Necrontyr youll do fine with that.

[MeatGrinder]

If you're running logan, and want to be hated by everyone, put him in a long fangs unit with 5 plasma cannons. Give them relentless every turn and tank hunters when you wanna pop metal boxes.

 

I didnt even think of speeders, they'll get you the extra missiles, or a fast multimelta for popping anything big.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

My personal point of view is that while on paper Long Fangs are great value, they have several problems:

 

1) Mobility... like any other stationary Marine squad, if you're up against a mobile army, they can be countered and out-maneuvered with some degree of efficiency.

 

2) Spamming... you sort of need to spam Long Fangs for them to be effective, since a single Long Fangs pack is of questionable use and easily kill-able. On the flip side, I like to play a 50/50 hybrid of fluff and competitive, and whats not fluffy with Space Wolves is spamming several units of one type... such as Missile Launchers. You can start changing them up with Lascannons and Plasma Cannons, but then the value isn't as great anymore.

 

The opponent I play against most runs an Eldar with Allied Tau list, and he spams AV12 / AV13 armor. Tons of it. The problem is, with the new stupid terrain placement rules, he's made sure that he's always got at minimum two pieces of terrain that he can always hide a significant portion of his army behind, rendering my Long Fangs highly ineffective. I've taken to using Drop Pods and Whirlwinds to counter this, which causes him to castle his forces even more than usual. Still, with that many jink saves / disruption pods, I can't tell you how unbelievably difficult it is to crack open a list like that. I get slaughtered in Annihilation games because I just simply can't do enough damage when my Long Fangs guns are silent.

 

To that effect, I've gotten really good mileage out of Typhoon Land Speeders. I feel that any sort of heavy guns that can reasonably reposition and continue to fire have something of an advantage. Where this comes into play with Long Fangs is that if you're repositioning them to get better firing lanes, then they aren't shooting, thus totally ineffective.

 

In short... I think Long Fangs are excellent if you're playing someone whose simply going to move right towards them and let them do what they do. Against a craftier opponent, you really need the mobility.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Mobility, which is why fyers would make the Wolves REALLY awesome, but I wont get into that for now.

Im gathering most of you just don't like taking regular tanks for HS? (other than the whirlwinf) I do find it kinda funny the Whirlwind is getting praised ever where else I read and hear people say stay away.

[Squark]

My personal opinion is that Long Fangs and Vindicators are by far the best options out of the heavy support slot (Predators generally trying to be something in between the two and failing, the Whirlwind being superfluous for the most part the more competitive your metagame gets). Thing is, both of them really, really want to be taken in multiples. I guess you could do 2 Vindicators 1 Long Fangs pack, but otherwise, it's a heavy support slot full of one or the other, unless you're spending 500 points to take 2 Land Raiders (You should be taking the first land raider as a dedicated transport for your Wolf Guard most of the time unless you're trying something silly).

[Bloody Legionnaire]

-Squark, I was really starting to think that was the better option (2 vindicators, 1 Pack of long fangs accompanied by WG in TDA/CML) However, it really limits the long range fire I think the Wolves are lacking in. How exactly does the Predator come up so short? I have never played with the Vindicator nor the Predator so I don't know... the Predator on paper seems like it should be very robust.

Anywho, all of that in mind 2 vindicators would fit in very well with my Meta and it would be a lot of *in your face* fire power that would be hard to rival. So far I've played a lot of nids and I don't know how my Vindicators would fare against a horde Army that can really hurt me before I get into range. I saw another Space Marine player down at the FLGS sit back with a whole lot of Marines (70) and thinned out the horde with thunderfire cannon fire and devastator fire before getting involved in combat. The Vindicators would be pretty scary for an Army like this but a few lances from some Zoanthropes and I'd be pretty SOL. I did really like using the 'godhammer' because in conjunction with my long fangs I could get quite a few wounds off of monsterous creatures before they got to my WG squad. However since it'd only be feasible to take one in a 2,000 list I would want a different LR for my deathstar squad. 

How well does a lot of CML help with long range fire? What about the missiles on land speeders? Any sense? on letting 1 or 2 land speeders sit back and thin out horde armies? 

[eyeslikethunder]

Yeah MG those jink /disruption save are tough in the games Ive played. I have had to use my cavalry / assaulting them to take them down

 

I have found having manoeuvrability to go with shooting in 6th is more powerful It allows you the chance to kill the correct models and makes it harder for your opponent to control who dies

 

This has been one of the plus sides of bikers in 6th so far I have found. Might have to try speeders I have not really used them much in 6th

[Squark]

-Squark, I was really starting to think that was the better option (2 vindicators, 1 Pack of long fangs accompanied by WG in TDA/CML) However, it really limits the long range fire I think the Wolves are lacking in. How exactly does the Predator come up so short? I have never played with the Vindicator nor the Predator so I don't know... the Predator on paper seems like it should be very robust.

It's mostly that Long Fangs and Autocannon Dreadnaughts generally out perform them in regards to long range firepower (And the latter has better mobile firepower as well), while Landspeeders do mobility better. Essentially, it's a generalist unit trying to perform multiple roles, but it doesn't perform any one role as well as other units would.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I understand that, I just think that Dreadnoughts are more expensive of an investment than the predator tank is. Mobility is a factor, but for the most part I'm looking at a long range gun platform. Now that you mention it though, if I wanted to run two vindicators I could definitely use the dreadnoughts for the extra long range fire power I would have been missing. Good call!!

[eyeslikethunder]

 

I think it depends what you need and who you play

 

Predators ac/hb

 

Pro

 

Good.value
good aginst anti infantry light mech
good mobility

 

Do well against foes with struggle with av13 and lack mobility to expose side /rear armour
Good in lists with lots of;high armour
Likelyhood of of being stun locked all game has dropped a lot in 6th

 

Cons

 

Will struggle aginst high save or high AV armies
stuggles against foes like Necrons or Tau;who can hurt it very easily;
Can die to 1 shot

 

Predators AC/LC

 

Pros
Good;firepower 2 lascannon shots are nice
Tough for certain armies to crack
Do well against foes with struggle with av13 and lack mobility to expose side /rear armour
Good in lists with lots of;high armour
Likelyhood of of being stun locked all game has dropped a lot in 6th
;
Cons
but lacks templates/high number;shots;for hordes;
plays quite a lot for those lascannons
OKMobility
Can die to 1 shot
Necrons and tau laugh at it

Long fangs
Pros
Cheap missiles give alrounded firepower with the ability to kill av14(unlikely but possible) and hordes
Have greatest potential firepower with 5 heavy weapons + plasma gun
Easy to get cover saves
Cant die to 1 shot
Good choice to man quad gun(especially with a IC)
Split fire
;
Cons
Poor;Mobility;has improved in 6th but really need to be in the right place from the beginning;
Vulnerable to all guns; but quite often at the back out of range anti-infantry weapons
;
;
;
Vindicators
Pros
Str 10 ap2 pie plate; very good;vs FNP, 2+ saves and multiwound models
Much less melta in 6th ed due to plasma being more popular
Tough
Scary
Likelyhood of of being stun locked all game has dropped a lot in 6th
Pretty Mobile
Chance to losing main gun to damage reduced
;
Cons
Short ranged
Likely to get shot a lot
1 Main Gun
Can be exposed to a lot firepower by the need to get close
;
;
Will finish in a minute

[dswanick]

Personally, I've always had good success with my three packs:

1} 2X Plasma Cannon, 2-3X H.Bolter, PL Power Sword, A.Cannon Razorback, sometimes a WGPL Power Sword (215-235pts)

2 & 3} 2X Lascannon, 3X Missile Launcher, Las/PLas Razorback, sometimes Hunter Killer missiles (245pts@)

 

The shorter range pack (#1) charges forward with my Grey Hunter squads to sieze a midfield position and then lay waste to as much as possible.

The long range packs (#2 & 3) can unload a volley of 6 Lascannons and 8 Krak Missiles into up to 6 enemy units in a single phase.

This plus a Multi-melta Typhoon speeder can usually lay waste to a good chunk of enemy heavy armor.