What can you tell me about Guilliman and the Ultramarines ?

[Dexo]

Hi

 

I considering starting a Ultramarines Legion Army, but alle my knowleges about the Ultramarines is from there 40K counterpart.

 

So what can you tell me about Guilliman and the Ultramarines ? What was there role in The Horus Heresy ?, what tactics did there use and what made them deferent from the other 17 Legions ?

[Marshall Bretton]

they were the largest of the legions and arguably the most successful in the great crusade. Although 1 or 2 other legions conquered more planets than them (i think only the luna wolves) no other legion left the planets in such a condition as the ultramarines who built infrastructure and industry in all the planets they came across so that when they left, they were already prosperous worlds that could contribute to the imperium and the great crusade.

 

in the heresy horus was so afraid of the ultramarines that he sent 2 full legions, the word bearers and world eaters to take them out of the fight. The ultramarines overcame them and were well on their way to terra to fight in its defence, prompting horus to do his thing with the emperor.

 

after the heresy guilliman nearly destroyed the ultramarines by sending them across the imperium to fight rebellions, hunt the traitors and purge xenos that had taken advantage of the chaos.

without guilliman and the space smurfs, the imperium would not have survived

 

tactically the ultramarines were pretty similar to how they are in 40k using a less refined version of the codex astartes as guilliman had not finished that during the heresy

 

Guilliman was a tactical god, able to adapt and respond to any situation extremely quickly and deploy his forces accordingly. he also knew the wisdom of when to fight and when to retreat

 

 

anyway that is a pretty quick paraphrase of everything, im sure others can go into more details for you, but the ultramarines legion were awesome and guilliman was one of the best primarchs. him and russ are my 2 favourites tbh

 

hope this helps

[Kol Saresk]

They used an amalgamation of everyone's tactics, using what was best suited for each battlefield.

 

Their biggest difference(pardon the pun) was that they were the Largest Legion, numbering in the hundreds of Thousands. Also, instead of the eight worlds of Ultramar, they own five hundred worlds of Ultramar, although one hundred of those were recently wiped out.

 

At the moment, their place in the Heresy is fighting off the Word Bearers and World Eaters forces in Ultramar due to a warp storm trapping them in that region of space. Although Lorgar is planning on leaving through a back door and taking Angron and both Legions with him.

 

EDIT:

 

 

in the heresy horus was so afraid of the ultramarines that he sent 2 full legions, the word bearers and world eaters to take them out of the fight. The ultramarines overcame them and were well on their way to terra to fight in its defence, prompting horus to do his thing with the emperor.

 

Hmm, that is slightly inaccurate. OP, if you haven't read Betrayer by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, read the spoiler at your own risk.

Horus sent Lorgar and the Word Bearers. Lorgar brought Angron along because he was hoping he could save him. As a result, one hundred worlds of Ultramar were put to the sword and flame. Those one hundred worlds were used as part of a ritual to summon the Ruinstorm as well as fuel Angron's apotheosis to daemonhood. Now that goal was accomplished, Betrayer ended with Lorgar getting ready to leave with both Legions and leave the Ultramarines trapped by the Ruinstorm while they marched onto Terra with Horus.

 

[Marshall Bretton]

yeah ok ill give you that one hehe, although in the lore (not yet been turned into a book) we have the shadow war where the ultramarines fight to clear the 500 worlds of traitors

but i am being a bit of a fanboy hehe

[Kol Saresk]

I have no doubt something like that will happen eventually as there has to a region of space of "worlds conquered by Gulliman during the Great Crusade" for the Eagle Warriors to remain on constant campaign through.

 

Here is where I also reference Betrayer again in saying that Gulliman had conquered the 500 worlds.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to bash the Ultramarines, there are plenty of good reasons to play them. I'm just trying to present a picture of the good and bad.

[Marshall Bretton]

yeah i know hehe, i am being a bit too fanboy with them tbh

 

if you want to read about the heresy ultramarines then know no fear is probably the best book. betrayer has some good stuff as well although it is more about the word bearers and world eaters

[Balthamal]

My best advice (this coming from a self confessed Ultramarines CHAPTER hater) is bin everything related to 40k, and read Know No Fear, Rules of Engagment and Betrayer. They do a wonderful job of fleshing out the character of the Legion and offer some fantastic insight into how they've strayed from the path their Primarch originally intended. Those 3 stories are so good I'm seriously considering a XIII Legion army when their time comes.

[Raven Angel]

You will also need the FW Legion army list as the Ultramarines pretty much stuck with the original TOO (Table of Organization) for Legions until the HH

[Dexo]

Thanks for all the great info (just keep it comming if there is more )

I already have the Forgeworld HH Book I and I startet on the "Know no fear" audiobook 30 minutes ago.

[Veteran Sergeant]

While it hasn't explicitly been spelled out yet, it seems fairly likely that the 500 Worlds of Ultramar get split up among the Second Founding chapters and returned to the Imperium, while Guilliman just keeps the original eight or so that he controlled when the Emperor found him.

[Kol Saresk]

And there is also an entire Second Founding Chapter whose purpose is to patrol the planets Gulliman brought to compliance so there's another possibility.

[Blacksad]

aren't the ultra's created with the ancient roman empire in mind?

[Legatus]

I have no doubt something like that will happen eventually as there has to a region of space of "worlds conquered by Gulliman during the Great Crusade" for the Eagle Warriors to remain on constant campaign through.

 

Uh... assuming Space Marines were responsible for conquering ~500,000 worlds during the Great Crusade (While ~500,000 worlds were perhaps taken by Army forces or joined voluntarily), then the Ultramarines would have conquered at the very least ~25,000 worlds. Likely a great deal more, since they outdid the other Legions by some margin while others did less well. 500 Worlds is an insignificant amount when compared to how much the Ultramarines had accomplished during the Crusade. It would be 2%, actually.

 

If you assume that SPace Marines were responsible for one million worlds, then the Ultramarines would have taken about 50,000, mkaing the "500 worlds of Ultramar" 1% of that.

[Kol Saresk]

Pretty much. The galaxy is a big space and there are somewhere in the neighborhood of several other hundred Chapters plus the fact that many of those worlds were probably destroyed in the Heresy or the Scouring and then of course there are the Tyranids as well as the Tau Expansions and the Ork Waaaghs! Oh and let us not forget the Badab War, the Damocles Crusade and everything else that has happened in the Eastern Fringe, such as the Bastion Worlds when I think a few star systems were devoured by a birthing star. So there is the entire ten thousand years to factor in plus the fact that I think you said three planets were destroyed at Calth that are not counted as part of the 8, Prandium isn't counted as part of the 8 and there were a few(or at least one, I can't remember the number) "non-8 Ultramar"-affiliated world(s) between Prandium and Macragge that fell to Hive Fleet Behemoth. So if we factor that into the assumptions with let's say, four hundred worlds being lost in a 10,000 year period(at least 102 were destroyed in the first attacks on Ultramar[99 excluding Calth and then Calth's three sister planets] and the other three hundred destroyed in the various wars that followed) plus one entire system eachbeing given to the various non-fleet based Chapters such as the Maelstrom Wardens and everyone else in the Eastern Fringe and the Ultima Segmentum(which is strangely name-related to Ultramar.....), it suddenly looks more manageable for a fleet-based Chapter to patrol it.

[Legatus]

I am not sure what you are saying. The "500 worlds of Ultramar" have absolutely nothing to do with the number of worlds that had been conquered by the Ultramarines. That is just some arbitrary figure Dan Abnett made up instead of the previous eight, because whatever, he's Dan Abnett and he is allowed to do that.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that as I pointed out in another thread:

Quote

Damn Gulliman and his empire within an empire. Armatura, the war-world, was merely one globe in the Five Hundred Worlds. How did one man raise such vast armies? How did one Legion command such might?

 

He knew the answer, unwelcome as it was. Here was the gift of an unbroken Primarch. Here was an unflawed genius at play, unburdened by a pain engine. While Lorgar wasted time with the mysteries of the aether and Angron tasted blood from his malfunctioning mind, Guilliman of the Ultramarines had reshaped an entire subsector into the Imperial ideal. Not even Horus had managed that.

Of course if we look into the IA articles, we see that Macrrage had contact with the nearby star systems when Guilliman first arrived. Problem is, Prandium and Calth aren't exactly "nearby." As I pointed out earlier, there was distance and planets between Prandium and Macragge. So if one of those worlds wasn't nearby, then what worlds were? Of course, this presents a problem as the IA article say that in 40k, it says that the Ultramarines have control of Macragge and seven nearby star systems, with Espandor being at the edge of Ultramar. A little strange for "nearby" to have an edge. Of course, looking through the IA article shows that Behemoth also attacked Espandor. So the logical order would be something like Espandor, Prandium, Sybari and then Macragge. Or was Prandium first and Espandor second?

 

The other interesting thing to note is that Espandor is so nearby, a Hive Fleet as large as Behemoth sent so few ships that they were apparently destroyed somehow so only a small community existed on-world. But hey, I'm sure the distances were so nearby that it was like getting a fly to get off your arm.

 

What does all of this talk of "nearby" and Tyranids have to do with anything? That the arbitrary number actually has a basis. There apparently has always been room for the Ultramarines to have more than the eight worlds as other planets are nearby and in 30k, the Ultramarines recruited from all of the nearby systems. So even there it shows a decrease in the numerical amount of Ultramar as it goes from "all" to "eight."

[Legatus]

I still have no idea what you are trying to argue. That the "Ultramar" depicted on different galaxy maps is way too big? And that it therefor shoudl be much more worlds than just the eight in the lore?

[Kol Saresk]

Well no, complaining that is a retcon when it is, what was the word I heard used, expansion is relatively pointless as the fluff for there being more than 8 worlds, was actually already there, it just wasn't explicit. Although starting at "all" and then going to "eight" is sort of... noticeable. The point I was trying to make is that the 500 worlds are a part of Ultramar. As such, they are Guilliman's domain and according to Betrayer, it was a domain that he shaped himself. Betrayer also says he did it after he was recognized as a Primarch. Another thing that we can find basis in the IA article for as when he first came to Macragge, it simply had trading relationships with the nearby planets, there is no mention of confederation or alliances. Just trading and contact. Everywhere it mentions the two Kings, it calls them the two Kings of Macragge, not Ultramar. So as I have said, there is basis for the 500 worlds to exist. There is also fluff supporting that a very good, decent portion of the 500 worlds are worlds that were brought into Compliance by Guilliman. As such, according to the background, those worlds brought into compliance by Guilliman that were not either destroyed or given to Successors are being patrolled by the Eagle Warriors. Including the surviving remainder of the 500 worlds that did not remain under the domain of the Ultramarines.

[Legatus]

 

Well no, complaining that is a retcon when it is, what was the word I heard used, expansion is relatively pointless as the fluff for there being more than 8 worlds, was actually already there, it just wasn't explicit.

 

Ah, I thought I had debunked that when the issue of "maybe the older lore is compatible with 500 worlds" first came up. But here it is again. From the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines:

 

"Meanwhile, the fortress of the Ultramarines grew on Macragge. Some Ultramarines remained behind to supervise the work, which progressed rapidly thanks to the ready trading network and advanced industries of the planet. Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds." (p.12)

 

"With the Second Founding the size of the Ultramarines' force was much reduced. Most of the Space Marines left Macragge to establish new Chapters elsewhere. The Ultramarines' fortress was built to accomodate more than ten times as many Space Marines as now remained on the homeworld. As a result, its arsenals and weapon shops were partially dismantled, and taken by the Primogenitor Chapters to found their own bases throughout the galaxy. The genetic banks of the Ultramarines, and the huge recruitment organisation, was similarly reduced in size.

One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines." (p. 14)

 

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines repeats that, on the pages 13 and 14. Not only did the lore explicitely state that the worlds that had been supplying the Ultramarines throughout the Great Crusade are essentially the same worlds that are still supplying it to this day, it also specifically point out that this continued even though after the Second Founding the Ultramarines no longer really needed that large of a recruitment and support base. But no, the worlds they had recruited from during the Great Crusade were an aspect that was not changed when everything else was split up between the newly founded Chapters.

 

The new 500 worlds of Ultramar are absolutely not compatible with the previous lore.

 

 

There is also fluff supporting that a very good, decent portion of the 500 worlds are worlds that were brought into Compliance by Guilliman. As such, according to the background, those worlds brought into compliance by Guilliman that were not either destroyed or given to Successors are being patrolled by the Eagle Warriors. Including the surviving remainder of the 500 worlds that did not remain under the domain of the Ultramarines.

 

The Ultramarines conquered 25,000+ worlds during the Great Crusade (depending on the figures you take for total worlds liberated by Space Marines). Those are the worlds the Eagle Warriors are patroling. The new 500 worlds of Ultramar have nothing in particular to do with the Eagle Warriors.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't exactly see where the number of surrounding worlds is specified. If you can show me something that says that, I will shut my mouth forever. As I pointed out in the IA article, something that predates the 5th Edition Codex, it changes from "all surrounding worlds" to "eight surrounding worlds." And as I also pointed out, the path of Hive Fleet Behemoth takes it from Prandium(an established world of Ultramar) to Sybari, a fortress-world that is/was a stronghold for the Death Shadows Renegade Chapter. So if the 7 other planets are the only nearby worlds, the that means Behemoth decided it would attack Prandium, do a figure eight, attack Sybari and then go back into Ultramar. But Behemoth moved in a relatively straight path. Meaning that there was another world nearby to Macragge that wasn't one of the other seven planets and its name was Sybari. But if all the worlds next to Macragge are Ultramar as you say, then why wasn't Sybari counted among their number? Ever?

[Legatus]

I don't exactly see where the number of surrounding worlds is specified. If you can show me something that says that, I will shut my mouth forever.

 

My bad, I thought the quote in my previous post was enought. The second quote continues with this in the next paragraph:

 

"Ultramar is unique amongst the Space Marines. Where other Chapters rule over a single planet, asteroid or, in some cases, a mobile space fleet or orbital fortress, the Ultramarines have a larger domain. They control no fewer than eight local systems, each with its own worlds and governments loyal to the Chapter. All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge, so it is not surprising that their styles of architecture. government, and traditions are similar. After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman. There are many today who regard Ultramar as the ideal model for human society."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14; also in 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 14)

 

It does say "eight systems" at one point, and "eight worlds" at another, but the page then proceeds to describe traits and features of the eight worlds Macragge, Talassar, Quintarn, Tarentus, Masali, Calth, Iax, and Espandor. It also menions Prandium, and points out that it has recently been destroyed.

 

So, that is the "area around macragge" the previous paragraph had described. The same worlds where the Ultramarines had recruited during the Great Crusade, and continue to draw recruits from to this day, even though that was no longer really neccessary after the reduction to a single Chapter.

 

 

And as I also pointed out, the path of Hive Fleet Behemoth takes it from Prandium(an established world of Ultramar) to Sybari, a fortress-world that is/was a stronghold for the Death Shadows Renegade Chapter. So if the 7 other planets are the only nearby worlds, the that means Behemoth decided it would attack Prandium, do a figure eight, attack Sybari and then go back into Ultramar. But Behemoth moved in a relatively straight path. Meaning that there was another world nearby to Macragge that wasn't one of the other seven planets and its name was Sybari. But if all the worlds next to Macragge are Ultramar as you say, then why wasn't Sybari counted among their number? Ever?

 

IIRC Graham McNeill has added a few worlds that supposedly lie within the borders of Ultramar, like an Inquisition training world, or an Adeptus Mechanicus testing world. I assume those worlds are not colonized/populated, so there would be no population to recruit from. The same is probably true for the "old fortress world" the Death Shadows tried to hide on.

[Kol Saresk]

And where does it say the number has always been eight? Nowhere. You're assuming. Again.

[Legatus]

And where does it say the number has always been eight? Nowhere. You're assuming. Again.

 

*sigh* It says they continue to this day to draw recruits from the surrounding worlds that had provided recruits during the Great Crusade.

 

[During Great Crusade] - "Within a year a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds."

 

[After the Horus Heresy/Second Founding] - "One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines."

 

 

No, it doesn't say that it was eight worlds back then. In fact, according to the following descriptions of the eight worlds of Ultramar, it had been nine worlds until merely 250 years ago. But it says that they continue to this day to recruit from the surrounding worlds they had recruited from during the Great Crusade, the same area around Macragge.

 

It specifically says that they continued to do so even though after the reorganisation into a Chapter they no longer needed such a large recruitment base. After the preceeding paragraph had pointed out how everything else was divided between the successor Chapters. Everything else, but not the worlds of Ultramar. So any dividing of the 500 worlds of Ultramar between successor Chapters is definitely out.

[Nova_Dew]

 

 

 

"Ultramar is unique amongst the Space Marines. Where other Chapters rule over a single planet, asteroid or, in some cases, a mobile space fleet or orbital fortress, the Ultramarines have a larger domain. They control no fewer than eight local systems, each with its own worlds and governments loyal to the Chapter. All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge, so it is not surprising that their styles of architecture. government, and traditions are similar. After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman. There are many today who regard Ultramar as the ideal model for human society."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 14; also in 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 14)

 

lots of snipping but you might want to re-read that you missed the most important part.... They control no fewer than eight local systems note the fewer it means they do in fact control more than eight, not exactly eight, or fewer than eight but more than eight

[Legatus]

I so totally missed that important part that I pointed it out in an earlier post.

 

While it does refer to Ultramar as "eight systems" in one sentence, only two sentences later it talks about "all eight worlds" of Ultramar.