godking Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 We have all theorized what would have happened if someone else was appointed warmaster. What would happen if the emperor following the victory at Ullanor had not appointed a warmaster and simply given his primarchs orders to expand the imperium and then returned to Terra? Other then Curze Angron & Lorgar the Primarchs could be trusted to do their duties without the oversight of the emperor or a warmaster. We know that Lorgar and his legion have already fallen to chaos. How does the heresy happen without a warmaster to unite the rebels against the imperium. Lorgar on his own cant rally the other legions And Horus without the title of warmaster does not have the authority to sway other legions to his side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemd12812baby Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have just gotten started reading the story line but reading what I have here and others I think that Horus still would have come to the forefront and rallied the legions to him. If I read everything correctly the others accepted him as the Emperor's Right Hand guy anyway. They would accepted him as their "Leader" and done what he said. The Primarchs that were still loyal to the Emperor might have been slower to react to the happenings. So, in short, I think the war would still have happened but the Horus might be sitting atop the Golend Throne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Horus didn't need his rank to sway the other Legions - he was charismatic and charming, as well as reasonable and mediative. Several Legions flocked to his banner simply because he was rebelling. I think, without the title of Warmaster, Horus may very well have been put forward to lead the rebels anyway, and could have assumed a similar title or something along the lines of 'heir apparent'. However, I think the possibility of a power struggle amongst the rebels might be more realistic since there would be no formal hierarchy (or one that was reduced in rigidity) in the rebelling primarchs without the Warmaster title to hold over them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Other than Curze, Lorgar, and Angron? Fulgrim still has a date with a magic sword. Magnus is still poking the Immaterium with a stick to see what happens. Perturabo and Mortarion are still stewing in bitterness and becoming ever more extreme in their Warcraft. The Lion is still chatting with those xenos watchers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Making Horus warmaster was a necessity. The emperor ran back to Terra, and the armies of Man needed a new commander to plan the conquest of the stars for them, to coordinate the forces, to make their different moves work. The great crusade without such leadership would've been slowed down to nothing and could have been defeated in the end. And as others pointed out, everyone knew that Horus was head and shoulders abover all the other primarchs. They all respected him, trusted him. He had the charisma, the strengh, the intelligence, the best legion around... That wouldn't have changed a thing. I just see his nomination as a way to signifiate how high Horus was before he fell to Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Other than Curze, Lorgar, and Angron? Fulgrim still has a date with a magic sword. Magnus is still poking the Immaterium with a stick to see what happens. Perturabo and Mortarion are still stewing in bitterness and becoming ever more extreme in their Warcraft. The Lion is still chatting with those xenos watchers. Curze Lorgar and Angron where already on the at risk list at the time of Ullanor. The other primarchs where not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Making Horus warmaster was a necessity. The emperor ran back to Terra, and the armies of Man needed a new commander to plan the conquest of the stars for them, to coordinate the forces, to make their different moves work. The great crusade without such leadership would've been slowed down to nothing and could have been defeated in the end. And as others pointed out, everyone knew that Horus was head and shoulders abover all the other primarchs. They all respected him, trusted him. He had the charisma, the strengh, the intelligence, the best legion around... That wouldn't have changed a thing. I just see his nomination as a way to signifiate how high Horus was before he fell to Chaos. I dont see how Horus was specifically needed to coordinate the Primarchs other then the at risk primarchs most primarchs had the ability to expand the imperiums borders on their own. Yes Horus was the best of the Primatchs but without the authority of the title warmaster i dont see him rallying Angron or Mortarion to his side. Without the title warmaster why would Perturabo chose to listen to Horus ? At the very least even if Horus eventually rose to lead the rebel primarchs there would be a lot of infighting to decide who best to lead them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 It was after Ullanor that fulgrim attacked the Laeran, but the same outcome still would have happened. Typhon/Mortarion were being turned by agents of Lorgar. Who knows what would have happened with Perturabo and Magnus, would like to think that Magnus would still be loyal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Perturabo would have listened to Horus because Horus is the only primarch who was trusted by Perturabo (Horus saw the qualities of say Perturabo and Alpharius when other primarchs (douchey ones) pretty much mocked them). Angron respected Horus far more than he did to the other primarchs. The main issue with the primarch is that they are humans. They don't always like each other a lot. They can't really work together without a supreme leader to rule over them. That is why Horus is the guy who played on the antagonism of some legions to get the best of said legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Telling the 18 Primarchs to just do their own thing, not one of you is more or less in charge ends in a train wreck. Imagine a business that has 18 vice presidents and no president, all fully equal to one another and all with their own ideas on How Things Shall Be Done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yea I hate to say it. It might have taken longer to forge together an army but I think the out come is the same in the end. I can list events that could have changed things but I don't think not elevating Horus would have been enough. Now assume that Sanguinius or Guillaman get the job instead and Big E makes Horus their trusted right hand and you can get all kinds of shenanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Blood Angels would never have went to Signus unless Horus asked really nicely, Ultramarines would never have mustered at Calth unless Horus asked really nicely (sensing a trend here?) and Russ would never have attacked the Thousand Sons since it was Horus who persuaded him to do so anyway. So several key points would have been changed which could have changed most of the Heresy itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Blood Angels would never have went to Signus unless Horus asked really nicely, Ultramarines would never have mustered at Calth unless Horus asked really nicely (sensing a trend here?) and Russ would never have attacked the Thousand Sons since it was Horus who persuaded him to do so anyway. So several key points would have been changed which could have changed most of the Heresy itself. Horus was already used to manipulate the legions. Giving them orders and arranging everything. He was also nearly as influencial as the emperor, because he was favoured by the said emperor, was a tactical genius and was recognized by all primarchs as the best of them all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Considering that Russ and Magnus had already been STOPPED from going to war by Lorgar's intervention, I don't think Horus as Warmaster with the kill order is a necessary pre requisite to get the Sons and Wolves at each other's throats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If anything has come out of the HH series, it's that the war was inevitable regardless of whether or not Horus was appointed Warmaster. The primarchs were steeped in Chaos from the moment they were created. Manifestations of corruption was bound to happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 If anything has come out of the HH series, it's that the war was inevitable regardless of whether or not Horus was appointed Warmaster. The primarchs were steeped in Chaos from the moment they were created. Manifestations of corruption was bound to happen. True but without a warmaster the war might have consisted of solitary Primarchs and their Legions rebelling. Angron and Curze where always going to rebel/turn renegade. Lorgar was already corrupted by Chaos. Perturabo and Mortarion might not have turned The battle of Prospero might not have happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Perturabo and Mortarion might not have turned Mortarion ? You know how Mortarion "turned" ? He was pretty much forced to walk the path of Nurgle. Nothing related to Horus, in fact. Then, Perturabo still only trusted Horus so it's safe to say that he would've followed the only person he trusted. The battle of Prospero might not have happened. Horus could've altered the message even without being warmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Doesn't the Death Guard IA say that Mortarion was always more loyal to Horus than the Emperor, to the point that Corax and Guillima warned the Big E about it and were pooh poohed? Though that's the same one that has him and Curze as friends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 In Betrayal the stated reason, long story short, for Mortarion joining the rebellion (which was waaay before Nurgle toyed with him during a certain fated warp journey) was that he viewed the Emperor as a tyrant. Suffice to say Mortarion did not like tyrants one little bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So even if it was only one Legion which turned at first, there always would have been more to follow because so many of the primarchs had cause to resent the Emperor. Say one or two Legions rebel separately, wouldn't those resentful primarchs come to the aid of their brother being unfairly prosecuted? Without Horus to "unite" the rebelling Legions, let's say for argument's sake, the Iron Warriors finally snap and declare against the Emperor. Wouldn't Angron and/or Mortarion ask themselves, "Perturabo's right to protest his mistreatment; and my legion's been mistreated as well"? The rebelling Legions weren't really ever all that united save for the end goal of overthrowing the Emperor and their personal loyalty to Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 but has that sort of thing not happened before? the wolves were considered the emperors executioners before they went after the thousand sons, and apparently that was not the first time they had been forced to purge a legion. if the other primarchs did not help then, why would they this time? some events were going to happen no matter what though. the burning of prospero was engineered by tzeench (i can never spell that one) not by any of the primarchs or other people, although some of them were used as tools. but without horus the chaos gods would have found a way to make the wolves kick the crap out of magnus and his coven anyway Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 You mean the Wolves considered themselves the Executioners. The Night Lords think their massacres are what the Emperor wanted, the Word Bearers thought giant churches and worship were what the Emperor wanted, and so on. While there are hints that the Lost Legions had help vanishing into obscurity, there are others (Dorn's chat with Malcador where he wishes II and XI where still around) that argue against "And Leman Russ killed them, because he's awesome like that." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 but has that sort of thing not happened before? the wolves were considered the emperors executioners before they went after the thousand sons, and apparently that was not the first time they had been forced to purge a legion. if the other primarchs did not help then, why would they this time? They went after the World Eaters. And were quite mauled in the process. So no, the SW never fought against the missing legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 i thought it was implied that they had dealt with one of the missing 2 somewhere, can't remember where tbh but im sure i read it in one of the hh series books quite possibly making that up though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I don't think the fate of the II and XI legions are necessarily relevant to the discussion since GW has been deliberately vague about the subject. I'm sure it will be revealed some day, and it will probably be disappointingly emo. Additionally, the burning of Prospero was not altogether a fair fight, since the Thousand Sons' efforts were deliberately hampered by their own Primarch for a good bit of the fight. If Magnus were engaged from the get-go, we cannot be sure how it would have ended. Had it turned into a more protracted campaign, who's to say that another Legion sympathetic to the Sons' humiliation and persecution would not have intervened? @Vesper, when did the Wolves go after the World Eaters? (I'm not doubting you, I want to read that story because it sounds really cool.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271558-what-if-there-was-no-warmaster/#findComment-3309857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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