Titanomachy- Primarchs vs Astartes

[EdT]

One issue I've always found very interesting (and neglected) in the Horus Heresy is the tension between Primarchs and their own progeny. For all that at first glance it's easy to assume that the Astartes are genetically altered to adore their leaders, actually there's quite a lot of evidence that things aren't as simple as that.

 

There's the Lion and Luther, of course, but also the patronising attitude Erebus and Kor Phaeron have towards Lorgar, not to mention the entirety of Istvaan III. I'm sure it'll also be the defining motif whenever we get to a novel showing the fate of the Death Guard and Typhon's betrayal of his Legion. This theme has become even more pronounced in recent HH works, what with Dorn and Sigismund having their tiff in The Crimson Fist, Sevetar's snarkiness to Curze in The Prince of Crows, the War Hound/World Eater split in Betrayer; the White Scar schism in Sword of Truth, and the rebel Iron Hands that are rumoured to be in the pipeline.

 

It seems to me that an Astartes versus Primarchs struggle is just as likely as a conventional "Some Primarchs fall; others don't" approach, and this is particularly interesting because the Biblical war in heaven between rival groups of Angels isn't the only mythical template that could be imposed on the 30K Imperium; there's also the Titanomachy.

 

For those unfamilar with the legend, the Greeks had a tradition that their set of Gods (Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Apollo, Hades etc) weren't the original people in charge, having come to power by defeating their fathers, the Titans, in a ten year war. It's not just a Greek thing either; lots of mythical traditions involve a set of new Gods trying to supplant the old ones in a battle. Norse myth had the Æsir–Vanir War, the Celts had Formoire and Tuatha De Danann, and so on. They all involve the old Gods being challenged by a new set, often their own children. Sometimes the old group are defeated, sometimes not, and occasionally the two combine in an uneasy peace.

 

Seems to me that this might map across nicely to the Legiones Astartes; even in the official version of events we have Kor Phaeron, Typhon, Luther and Torghun Khan dismissing their Primarchs as pathetic weaklings, not to mention Horus teaching Erebus a lesson. Fabius Bile clearly thinks the Primarchs are a bunch of idiots too. Given its genesis in a cabal of chaos-influenced astartes anyway, would it be too outlandish to turn the Heresy into a war between the Emperor and Primarchs on one side and their own children on the other?

[Billuriye]

There is a friction but the fact is Astartes are simply too inferior to Primarchs to outright rebel. Because of that, certain individuals who simply don't care for their Primarchs and what the brotherhood offers to them, amass power using Chaos, science, trickery etc. But it won't come to the point of war, at least in HH.

[Wade Garrett]

Hold on a moment.

Kor and Luther were able to hold their own against Primarchs, the loyalist World Eaters and Death Guard were able to at least temporarily beat back Angron and Mortarion, and Dorn canonically dies fighting regular Astartes.

[godking]

Hold on a moment.

Kor and Luther were able to hold their own against Primarchs, the loyalist World Eaters and Death Guard were able to at least temporarily beat back Angron and Mortarion, and Dorn canonically dies fighting regular Astartes.

Kor and Luther where Chaos enhanced and aren't really astartes ;-)

 

Only a large group of Astartes stands a chance against a Primarch

[Conn Eremon]

I think it'll stay more as friction bordering disobedience rather than outright battles. Duels between Marines and Primarchs will happen, but the vast majority of them will end poorly for the Marine. Even Luther and Kor Phaeron, the two Marines (if psuedo-Marine) most often used as examples of Marine on Primarch combat, were beaten down by the end of it, and were successful in the beginning mostly thanks to the shock of betrayal and a surprise assault. I think that if they do go with that 'Titanomachy' thing, it will stick to what we have already seen. Duels with heightened Champions like with Kor Phaeron and eventually Luther and large-scale disobedience like we saw at the Isstvan Massacre. Though the Isstvan situation did escalate into a full-scale battle, it was a pretty unique situation.

 

It would, however, be nice to see Primarchs being thwarted by Marines instead of another brother Primarch, sort of like what we saw in Crimson Fist short story. Or even better, elements of the Imperial Army (whether loyalist or traitor) successfully standing against an opposing Legion without any Legion help of their own. That would be a nice story of lesser mortals standing firm in the face of gods. Really, I just want a dang Army book.

[daveNYC]

Luther and Kor are less than Astartes, but they were able to go against a Primarch through the use of Chaos.  Erebus is a funny one though, he's an Astartes in a legion that supposedly was engineered for extra loyalty, and yet he has almost zero loyalty for Lorgar.

 

The loyalist forces were little more than speedbumps for Angron.  That's part of what makes Angron's landing on Istvaan III so awesome, all the WE in the area throw themselves at him to try and buy just a few extra seconds for the other loyalists to escape.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes, Kor Phaeron is boosted by Chaos. Luther is... "Unconfirmed." Yes, his skin is covered in warding symbols. Symbols that, IIRC, repel the warp, not attract it. So later on he might develop abilities similar to Kor Phaeron, but at the moment I don't think he does. I'll doublecheck when I get home.

 

Second, I'm not sure Sevatar is a good example. Primarily being because at the end of the day in the same novel, twice did he make a "last stand" to make sure that the Primarch and the Legion got away to fight another day, despite his smartalec attitude(which happens to be my favorite feature). One day, he might do something that does make him a good example. But the moment, he can only get hit up for disagreeing and backtalking with his Primarch. Which isn't exactly a rarity. Erebus did it in Betrayer to Lorgar. And I think Khârn may have done it too. I know that he at least disagreed with some of Angron's orders.

 

Third, it is unconfirmed that the Word Bearers were bred for loyalty. Yes, it was heavily alluded to but ultimately unconfirmed. Not to mention that "fact" was alluded to by a daemon.

[Wade Garrett]

Now Kol, we're only supposed to doubt Ingethel when she/it bad mouths the Emperor. Anything that makes Lorgar and the XVII look like schmucks is unquestionably true.

[Jareddm]

I think a better example would be when Lucius and the other EC captains ambushed Fulgrim when he had convinced them that Fulgrim wasn't himself.

[the emperor is scottish]

I think this is a nice point and a cool idea.

I think there would be plenty of cases of astartes growing disillusioned with their father but I don't see many of them have the balls or support to try and overthrow them. The way I see it for every one or two marines who think their primarch isn't up to the job there's going to be another 99,998 that worship him.

 

Another part of the heresy I'd like to see detail given on is astartes from loyal legions turning. We see the raven in ADB's prince of crows and even Luther and the fallen.

 

Also can someone point me in the direction of where fulgrim being attacked by his captains is referenced.

[Kol Saresk]

It's in the Primarchs Anthology, Th Primarchs.

[Conn Eremon]

Luther and Kor are less than Astartes, but they were able to go against a Primarch through the use of Chaos. 

 

Neither of them are less than Space Marines. They were both boosted and enhanced and armored like a Marine, just not by the same methods. They don't carry the genetic tissue of their Primarch within them, but they are never shown to be inferior. They're equivalent, parallel, rather than equal. Even Kor Phaeron's withered old frame isn't any different than what we saw with Iacton Qruze, who was shown to still be a very capable and effective member of the Astartes.

[the emperor is scottish]

Are we sure about this? I thought they were defiantly less than Astartes. Luther is smaller and less powerful than the marines he use to command as knights. That was the set up to his bitterness.

[Kol Saresk]

The Astartes are considered to be the pinnacle of genehancement because you basically slap in some extra organs, give it a little time and BAM! you have a blank slate for your very own supersoldier. However, it is the pinnacle due to its convenience. It is the best method. For example, the Thunder Warriors. Completely different process as far as I am aware. But more than capable of matching an Astartes in combat. Kor Phaeron and Luther simple took different roads to reach the same destination as the Astartes. Yes, that would mean some variation between the two, such as Luther's smaller size and Kor's "wizened frame" that is hidden beneath a suit of Terminator armor.

 

Also, I don't think Luther's bitterness came from this. It more than likely came from the fact that he raised the Lion. He thought of himself as Jonson's father. But then here comes along the real daddy, the Emperor. At first, he's okay with it. But then the Lion chooses the Emperor over Luther. The man who helped to raise the Lion was cast down for someone else who had no hand in his upbringing.

[Conn Eremon]

 

Also, I don't think Luther's bitterness came from this. It more than likely came from the fact that he raised the Lion. He thought of himself as Jonson's father. But then here comes along the real daddy, the Emperor. At first, he's okay with it. But then the Lion chooses the Emperor over Luther. The man who helped to raise the Lion was cast down for someone else who had no hand in his upbringing.

 

I saw it less as the father being replaced and more as the equal being overshadowed. Luther thought of himself as a grand being, even saying that if it weren't for the Lion he would be the greatest hero of Caliban. However, the Lion was his superior in almost every way. And was created to be so. I think Luther's bitterness stems from being kept in the shadow of a being far grander than any human has a right to be, knowing that if it weren't for that being he'd be the brightest fellow around. Though he tries for the brotherhood, he can never look past that sense of inferiority and it needles at him.

[Olis]

I always kinda figured Luther as the Lion's mentor rather than father figure... :huh:

[Kol Saresk]

@Cormac: Again, that is a very good point.

 

@Olis: It's not exactly uncommon for one to be the other.

[Olis]

@Olis: It's not exactly uncommon for one to be the other.

 

Fair point. To me it felt almost solely in the 'mentor' camp, as I read it. I suppose that's down to personal interpretation, really.

[Conn Eremon]

Well, Luther's mentoring had a lot of fatherly aspects to it. The Lion began as a child and had to learn everything from scratch, albeit at a pretty speedy pace, and from all accounts it was Luther who took the bigger portion of that burden. It's one thing to be someone's mentor when it's an hour a week after school, and another thing altogether to be the closest thing someone has to a parental figure. Luther was more into the second category. However, the Lion's progress was nothing short of astounding, he was a Primarch after all. So while Luther may have been in that second category, he spent far longer being his equal (at least in the eyes of others if not himself). So Kol has a point about Luther seeing himself as a usurped father, though I continue to see it as an overshadowed brother.