Iron Sage Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 fun fact about the burning chariot of tzeentch: its weapons are both heavy, so the transported exalted flamer can't shoot them if the chariot moved LOL warpflame: now we know why nurgle "lost" FnP - no need for friends with tzeentch as an enemy... so far, all daemons of nurgle (exept epidemius) and the soulgrinder seem okay (yet pricy) with shrouded, AP3 template primaris power (and AP2 large blast), beast move, 4+ poison/gauss CC. ¨Yeah, lol, I read that part on 3++ myself. Quite funny IMO. Guessing that will be FAQed pretty much ASAP when they notice :D IMO Nehekare, we shall also see some Slanny units etc. in future lists. Daemonettes are now just plain better and just a different choice to plagues and 12 point seekers, well, guessing a lot of people will find some use for that. Still a fan of the 6 point str 4, jump pack furies despite the LD 2 though ^^ I mean. Pretty cheap way to field a de facto fearless flying unit, and if it dies in HtH, well, sure, instabillity will murder it, but thats why you only pay 6 meagre points for them in the first place ;) As for the actual good reliable FA, both plague drones and fleshhounds as well as seekers seems to be pretty decent. Even the Nurgle beast to be honest. Wierd. Fast Attack is a very strong section in both CSM and this new Daemon codex, while one gets the feeling that the Elites in both the marine and the daemon codex could be scaled upwards, but I digress :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3318763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 What's going on with bloodletters, people who've seen the book? I have a bunch of these I was going to ally with my word bearers, and I'm somewhat concerned given the overall direction of the codex. I hear they've dropped to T3 now? Are their swords at least useful? I was hoping this 'dex would be the excuse I've been wanting for ages to buy a box of bloodcrushers, but they sound... less than stellar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3318932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 low armor , no frags , t3. the swords are ap3 which is nice and they have buffs to get in to melee easier [although still random charge only 6d+6 and not 2d6] , they are cheap , but paper thin so you have to run big squads , which of course makes them not cost less [what their point cost may suggest to begin with] . plaguies or netts are just better . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3318977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Anyone else get the feeling Kelly got beaten a lot by Tzeentch players when he was younger, or for some reason has such a hatred for Tzeentch units and players it make Moby Dick and captain Ahab look like a love story? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3318989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Tzeentch just doesn't have a fancrowd. kelly loves eldar/slaanesh, converters love nurgle, everybody loves khorne (BLOOD FOR...you know the drill). Plus, magic sucks in 40k. Thought of the day (courtesy of hero@bols): I think it will do quite well for a 6th Ed. book. Notice that I said6th Ed. book? That's because the armies written for 5th Ed. werequestionably more powerful. fun fact of the day: neither the blue scribes (T4), nor the masque (T3) are independent characters, both have 2W/5++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Oh, for crying out loud. Does anyone remember when Tzeentch used to be hard to kill? I remember those days. We weren't much for the attack, but at least we had that going for us... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Tzeentch is brilliant, and although he's taken a hard hit from the last book i dont think Tzeentch daemons are as bad as everyone is making out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 trolling I miss the point of reserving judgement until 40k has become a balanced game in 378th edition, yet judging that others miss the point. we all go along here having fun. maybe you should just open your own thread and hand things differently there? Ok, unnecesarry hostility aside, I think you misread what I said. Since it is obvious from rumours, that dex was redesigned from the verycore, I will reserve my judgement until reading book several times (previous posts clearly indicate that wording is very important) and presumably playing several times. That was bulk of my post, right there. Some of dudes was whining about table because they didnt noticed that it hits every unit in enemy army too... So what is wrong with it? Last sentence goes like this. Heck, maybe we should even wait until all books are updated for 6th asmain balance issues are caused by 5th (GK) and 5,5 ed (crons) books. Dude it is last sentence starting with words Heck, maybe... It is clearly speculation and refers to things we were hearing from rumours and from that playtesters podcast that was posted here while ago. Bouth told us, that GW is publishing new books and updating amies at much faster rate and is putting much effort into balancing book against each other. At no point am I sayig LOLLOLOLO NOOBZ W8 until 397 ed. About those fiends, according to RAW, yes cou can drop enemy squad to I0 and thus preventing them from striking any blows, but I suspect it will be faqed soon to drop I to minimum of 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Oh, for crying out loud. Does anyone remember when Tzeentch used to be hard to kill? I remember those days. We weren't much for the attack, but at least we had that going for us... Oh, for crying out loud. Does anyone remember when Tzeentch used to be hard to kill? I remember those days. We weren't much for the attack, but at least we had that going for us... "Those were the days, my friend, we thought they`d never end, we`d sing and dance and....." Tzeentch is brilliant, and although he's taken a hard hit from the last book i dont think Tzeentch daemons are as bad as everyone is making out Your correct. Horrors are not bad, just very different. They ARE worse than before at what they used to do, albeit with their psyk powers, they are arguably more versatile now. But yes...Compared to Plaguebearers and daemonettes, well...lets just say that they are easier to use... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Anyone else get the feeling Kelly got beaten a lot by Tzeentch players when he was younger, or for some reason has such a hatred for Tzeentch units and players it make Moby Dick and captain Ahab look like a love story? Kelly is utterly incompetent. His Dark Eldar book sucks and now his Daemon book seems to suck as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Right, now I know a few DA players. None of them seem to think the DA codex "sucks". Quite hillarious that if you read the net these days you will see the Ward is getting the most flak for the new fantasy daemons, while kelly-Cruddace is in second place for 40k daemons. A lot of these opinions are...interesting and based on...what exactly? As for Tzeentch, in 40K he doesn`t "suck". Read the codex I say. Horrors are arguably not as good as they were, LoC are just as good as they were (just different with worse saves but far more powerful all around), heralds are very good. The chariot, albeit a strange one, does NOT suck. Sure its flimsy, but its a thousand times better than a land speeder from the DA dex for your info, as it actually hits quite hard. Now...The problem with Tzeentch in the new daemon dex is WARPFLAME (yeah, that silly rule). Otherwise Tzeentch is very good. Flamers are good (str 4, ap 4,= perfectly nerfed as they are still awesome). Screamers. Still very good for their cost. Nah, Tzeentch isnt "bad". The Warpflame rule however.....That......SUCKS! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 We can thank Cruddace for the Warpflame rule as it was he who introduced it into the chaos warriors book, it wouldn't be so bad if it was just for a turn but it is ridiculous that it stacks and lasts for the rest of the game, at least the Daemon powers seem to be better than Tzeentch's chaos warriors lore Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Agreed, end of turn, or until your next turn would have been acceptable. But as it stands now, it is...iffy. But yeah, other than the Warpflame rule, the Tzeentch powers are quite decent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 ok, rapator: when exactly is judgment in order? tzeentch horrors efficiency: http://fundaemons.blogspot.de/2013/03/pink-horrors-point-efficiency-part-2.html http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-koxWQ55VMk4/UTEEkiRwIwI/AAAAAAAAAHw/tKpyJptv7BM/s1600/Horrors2.PNG so pretty bad even before warpflame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 yupp, they are hardly "awesome", but I am not convinced they "suck" either. Greater numbers do make them more resillient forinstance. That having been said, a divination herald would greatly increase their effectiveness I reckon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 a divination herald would greatly increase their effectiveness I reckon. klick the link, there is another table with herald - still overall worse exept against MEQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 a divination herald would greatly increase their effectiveness I reckon. klick the link, there is another table with herald - still overall worse exept against MEQ. Hmm, k. So only resillience then as a positive as well as range and more diversity in their shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 "diversity" in the sense that the whole unit now has a random amount of shots from 2-24, yes ;) would you really take another change power instead of the primaris? "resilience" in the sense that they're cheaper. 5++/reroll1s (1/3 + 1/6x1/3 =0.38) is worse than 4++ (1/2 = 0.5). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 "diversity" in the sense that the whole unit now has a random amount of shots from 2-24, yes would you really take another change power instead of the primaris? "resilience" in the sense that they're cheaper. 5++/reroll1s (1/3 + 1/6x1/3 =0.38) is worse than 4++ (1/2 = 0.5). Sure, but 9 points re-roll 1s. I was not trying to say that +5/re-roll 1s is as good as a flat +4 invul :) But my point is that along with the cost decrease, it gives mathematically added resillience unless I smoked something bad in my tobacco today :D As for diversity, you are of course correct. To be honest, I was not 100% sure that they could not take more than one power. The codex reads "rolls their powers" (with plural s) so I was initially conned into thinking that this could mean that they could gain more than one. But yes, your right :) No doubt they are nerfed (although the added herald in the squad made them slightly more powerful against MEQ on that table compared to earlier). But really, IMO we should not ignore the cost decrease, which truly counts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 yeah the cost decrease is what I meant with cheaper. in the kills-per-points-ratio it is already taken into account.so you get a unit that takes 72.6 bolter shots to die and doesn't do much else.a single tz herald with ML3 for 1/2 the cost does the exact same amount of damage as 20 horrors... and all is lost when the enemy rolls a 6 for deny the witch... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 ^or a 5+, if There's a psyker in there, or they have adamantium will. Or There's a psychic hood/runic sw think/eldar anti psyker doodad... Which most armies will contain in competitive play care of allies now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Yeah, let's just say there may or may not be a cable of Tzeentch players wanting to show the developers where they can stick the warpflame.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Having just picked up the book, I can understand a lot of the hate. However, while it will have to contend with 5th edition codexes, how does it compare to chaos and dark angels. Anyone considered running the khorne cannon to give possessed or warp talons frag grenades? I'm annoyed with the loss of toughness for plagues and bloodletters, feels so wrong to have t4 plagues without fnp, especially as the Guo gets +1 toughness over the other greater daemons :S Well I'll use them eventually alongside my chaos nurgle, but probably a guo, nurglings and a soul grinder (yay for nurglings having infiltrate at least). Also, while giving a unit a 6+ fnp is annoying, is it really all that great? Really? as it happens after, if you manage to wipe the unit out it won't benefit (if it already has fnp). Still bad to up the fnp of certain squads (and fighting dark eldar could get annoying). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 ^dark eldar, blood angels, tyranids, lots of armies get fnp. Also, the fact you get fnp after armour/cover/invulnerable saves makes even a 6+ big. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 ^dark eldar, blood angels, tyranids, lots of armies get fnp. Also, the fact you get fnp after armour/cover/invulnerable saves makes even a 6+ big. Agreed. Now I actually LIKE the codex (so far anyway) apart from the warp chart which IMO might slow the game down a bit too much with dice rolling, but there isn`t really anything that makes Warpflame a "decent" rule. Its just simply bad. Now that doesnt mean that flamers suck per se (IMO the nerf is good and they are still an awesome jump pack unit, except warpflame is :cussing annoying to tell the truth), nor does it automatically make tzeentch powers suck, but its a fact that it`s an irritating rule indeed. Nurglez: As for plaguebearers, IMO they are better now than before. True, loss of 1T is a very real nerf and so on, but they are now very cheap, have HtH gauss and shrouded. I very, very much like them :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/13/#findComment-3319288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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