Urauloth Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 low armor , no frags , t3. the swords are ap3 which is nice and they have buffs to get in to melee easier [although still random charge only 6d+6 and not 2d6] , they are cheap , but paper thin so you have to run big squads , which of course makes them not cost less [what their point cost may suggest to begin with] . plaguies or netts are just better . Ugh, exactly what I was afraid of. Seems weird to make bloodletters some kind of cheap horde infantry, doesn't really fit with their image imo. I guess at T3 you have to run them in blobs and hope you make it to assault range? Sounds pretty awful in an edition focused on shooting. I can't believe plaguebearers don't have fnp. Surely if anything should have fnp it's a daemon of Nurgle? Shrouded is a decent rule and all, but I'm not sure it makes up for the nerf they've suffered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 After reading the book, my issue is the warp flame, though the rule does imply that you roll once for warp flame not for every unit shooting at it. Means Tzeentch armies will have to focus their fire at targets: or you know, in a gaming club just house rule it out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 a big issue is inconsistency - supposedly written together with C:CSM, but: -daemons don't have to pick 1 power from their god's discipline -same names with different rules (psi powers) -CSM icons do nothing, daemon icons act as beacons -defilers 195pts, no marks, soulgrinders get skyfire, similar weapon options for 135, no iwnd -daemon USR + mark/Daemon of x confusion, different effects -daemon princes same price, yet no votlw + instability -daemon weapons and artifacts (no shared armory) -no joining ICs despite being battle brothers -absolutely no synergy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 herald, plaguebearers, + 1 soulgrinder as a cheapish allied contigent has no synergy with CSM? To my eyes, and to others I have spoken to, it rather seems like they were designed to be used as allies. Another option would be Greater Daemon + troops + soul grinder. Tzeentch is going to be more useful for CSM than to actual daemon lists due to the fact that divination goes better with CSM than daemons. As for your other points, I agree that the defiler is....horrifyingly overcosted compared to grinders, and I for one will be using my defilers as grinders. Guessing Kelly realised that he :cussed up on the defiler... Rest of your post is fair IMO. Cant say I dissagree with your point concerning CSM icons for instance. But I certainly dont agree that there is no synergy at all. I for one, will certainly seek to utilize daemons as allies (IMO the dex seems to be created with that in mind) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 herald, plaguebearers, + 1 soulgrinder as a cheapish allied contigent has no synergy with CSM? To my eyes, and to others I have spoken to, it rather seems like they were designed to be used as allies. how is this better then runing IG ? for the same 130 pts am runing a valk with tri las that has less problems with flyers[the fiend always gets shot up , the valk gets shot up only on 2 occasions , if it comes before the other players flyers or if there is flakk fortifications and even then it is not alway a kill for the valk]. That is a non synergy . DA azy siting in an IG blob giving it fearless and a +4/+3inv[on a landing pad] that is synergy . SW RP in a IG blob that is synergy[specialy as people pointed out to me comissars no longer blow up the brains of a RP if a Ld test is failed] . Eldar/DE seer combos , that is synergy . taking some dudes for X points is not synergy its taking dudes for X points. . Another option would be Greater Daemon + troops + soul grinder. Tzeentch is going to be more useful for CSM than to actual daemon lists due to the fact that divination goes better with CSM than daemons aside for the high cost of this set up[which doesnt have to be a bad thing . high cost good stuff , can be ok too. cheap and good is of course better , but chaos doesnt get that] . what are we going to cast the divination on ? a cheap sorc hiding in a unit , buffing bikers/havocks/dudes with plasma is very nice . every loyalist meq player will say that [and normal sm while telling that will cry] , but a high cost DP has a target sign painted on him , he dies too fast and before people start saying FMC etc . If FMC were so good then old demon armies wouldnt need 5 of them for them to work and both our and the nid armies would dominate with 1-2 FMC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narse Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Deamons are fearless from shooting, which is offers some good synergy for the scared marines. The Daemon codex also offers access to the Soul Grinder which has good synergy with interceptor on an AV13 vehicle. (don't forget mark of tzeentch reroll 1's for daemon/cover saves) Herald's of Tzeentch offer divination access to that local Havoc squad, which gives a more realistic shot of downing flyers. I think I will be doing this... Yeah, the Pink Horrors kind of suck just to hide the herald in.... But there is one more thing you need to consider, access to the Warp Storm Table. I like this table, it hurts your opponents more then it hurts you most of the time. You can also eliminate some of the negative effects (for an allied army) with a Instrument of Chaos investment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 All fair points, I confess. Not sure it`s so gloomy though. And its not "taking x units for x points" jeske. I want a good allround tank, which I do not have in the codex. I take a soul grinder for instance. You may have a good point concerning inferior synergy, but when you add units that has something your own codex lacks, then its an improvement and not the opposite surely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 synergy does not mean "good". synergy means that two things combined will be better than individually. A unit may be good on his own, yet has no synergy unless it makes other units better than they would have been on their own and vice versa. but allied daemons are no better in CSM than elsewhere. a tzeentch herald would need a unit he is attached to, or he is bolter bait. so thats horrible waste of points for horrors. rather get a LoC. both options cost around 300 pts ...for twin-linking BF4 marines? what I could imagine: ku'gath, 10 PBs (DS), grinder /w Cannon, MoN: 2-3 (poisoned) low AP blast templates (put in cover), shrouded objective grabbers, almost no random crap for 530pts. good point value and fluffy to add to the typical Nurgle/Typhus CSM list, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I can't get over nurgle stuff not getting fnp and also having their tougness nerfed. Like, these are defining features of nurgle units since forever and now they're just slow and covered in flies, I guess? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Whyever not, kvlt? FnP is Slaanesh's schtick now, just look in C:CSM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The nurgle stuff is still tougher than other daemons - note that bloodletters had their T reduced as well. Some of the nurgle stuff also has IWND. I can deal with this particular change, though it makes them more vulnerable in close combat than Nurgle should be, imo. Then again, everything in the book is more vulnerable than it should be in close combat, given their points cost, vulnerability to shooting, and difficulty getting to close combat. The rest - and especially the over the top nerfs to tzeentch? not so much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narse Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 The only problem I see with allying with Daemons is that you still are stuck with the troop choices of the CSM codex book... I was thinking the Herald of Slaanesh is pretty badassed for 45 points. Though I am kind of limited as i only have 20+ Pink/Blue Horrors, 11 Daemonettes, a Lord of Change, and a Defiler that might look more like a Soul Grinder then a Defiler nowadays. Wonder if my Lord of Change model can fit atop a Bastion + Gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 what I could imagine: ku'gath, 10 PBs (DS), grinder /w Cannon, MoN: 2-3 (poisoned) low AP blast templates (put in cover), shrouded objective grabbers, almost no random crap for 530pts. good point value and fluffy to add to the typical Nurgle/Typhus CSM list, too flys are ok if someone runs bikes or tries an assault build with maulers . And its not "taking x units for x points" jeske. I want a good allround tank, which I do not have in the codex. I take a soul grinder for instance. You may have a good point concerning inferior synergy, but when you add units that has something your own codex lacks, then its an improvement and not the opposite surely. not to get too much bugged down in the meta game 1500/199 vs2k+games etc I would like to point out that if we take demons . we get a melee hq and a melee/tarpit unit and 1 shoting tank which is a walker . If you take IG you get the same HQ , shoting units[shoting>melee in 6th] and also a tank only this one flys [and flyers>every other vehicle in the game right now]. Now if IG was an ally that couldnt take objectives or it was an ally that would be limited in some way [can take vraks dudes , but not normal IG for example] , then yes battlebrother demons would have been a better choice . But as non of this things happen we are in a problematic situation where , yes we can take demons , only IG are better while doing the same . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Read it again. It does not say a "Daemon" primary attachment. Is the word daemon intended to be there? Most likely. But not written. GW really needs to hire a technical writer to screen their codexes. Even 1-2 hours of editing before printing a codex would clarify most rules.Rulebook, page 109, clearly tells us that detachment == codex. You cannot take units from another codex into your primary detachment codex. So, reading so far it sounds like no one is really happy with daemons being our battle brothers? If I have a pack of bloodletters, pack of daemonettes and dozen of seekers (+ heralds of course) should I consider using them or better just grow up my Emperors Children army? Should I use them always or only if I have 2 allied detachments? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 fun fact of the day: soul grinder phlegm bombardment is ordinance (all other weapons snapshot, can't hit flyers), so if you use the (expensive) cannon upgrade, you invalidate your skyfire gun (and vice versa). torrent flamer at least allows for harvester to be fired at ground targets. warp gaze snapshots at flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3319840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 If you use the Phlegm anyway, its not to shoot on a flyer..., so whats the matter that you can't shoot the skyfire harvester canon?... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 that you pay for both ;) hey Faeit212 startet a FAQ-compilation: http://natfka.blogspot.de/2013/03/faq-daemon-questions.html I have to say: a lot of people there should read more accurately and argue less "intuitively" ;) (memo to self: always double-check before posting) but it's a good thing to sort the out the good ones and send them to GW's new design feedback mailbox. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 So for those of you who have it, is it worth picking up the codex? I wasn't planning on it originally but there have been a few people with a few decent things to say so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 it is always worth picking up a dex in some way or another . If you apple version is nice , I wouldnt buy the actual codex , because I dont find them worth the cash . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Now that they're $50ish I'd rather get some recommendations prior to buying but before the hardback codex books I'd buy each new release. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 So for those of you who have it, is it worth picking up the codex? I wasn't planning on it originally but there have been a few people with a few decent things to say so... I'd have a look at a store copy before buying it just in case but it is definately worth a read i'd say, there are some things i dont like in it but largely i dont think its nearly as bad as most people seem to think, have to play a few games to see for sure though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Now that I have it I must say I like it. Though it feels like they made the army specifically to be allies. As allies, you are looking at randomising maybe 4 pieces of gear before the battle, and two of those will be swapped for weapons anyway. The warpflame rule sucks, but you have to remember that if your opponent fails his T-test, he gets a lot of extra damage. D3 wounds extra to any squad already mauled is nothing to scoff at. Ok, 6+ FnP is nothing to scoff at either, but the good and the bad seems to cancel imo. For example, a unit of Horrors might kill say two-three marines in a shooting phase. You then have the T-test, which if they fail you will kill almost double what you already killed! Sure, if they pass, they get a buff. But as said, if they fail, the killyness per pt of Horror goes above the old Horrors. The new Horrors can also get some pretty nice anti-tank spells, and the divination buffs from a Herald is quite nice (though from the wording of the rules, especially for the Blasted Standard, it feels like they playtested it as allowing whichfires to overwatch). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Warpflame forces an emphasis on focussing ones fire, as you only ever take one T test a turn for Warpflame you want to make sure whatever you're shooting at dies. I don't like the rule I think it's terrible. making it FnP for the whole game is downright silly, for one turn, yeah maybe, not great, or if they roll a 1 on the T test. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 I can't wait for people to start warpflaming my repentia. :D 50/50 chance of getting 4+ feel no pain? Thank you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Ok played against demons [i tested only playing with them] and god are they slow . so much random stuff to roll for , but the worse thing were the gifts . you want to use different ones against different armies. it also rised another problem for tournaments , the list that goes to the tournament orgs can be X gifts bough , but when your opponent wants to check your list , it cant be printed[or your carrying around a lot of paper with you with all the possible combinations or random vs picked items] and is tons of problems , if your playing against someone not used to demons . Very un "user friendly" army . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/14/#findComment-3320881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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