Our friends from the warp

[Nehekhare]

as expected.

 

but did it forge a narrative?

[Blood Shadow]

How did they do in combat and shooting?

[Iron Sage]

as expected.

 

but did it forge a narrative?

Sarcasm alert!

[Nehekhare]

Sarcasm alert!

;)

 

but actually, it is a valid consideration. With all the WD battle reports ignoring FOC/points costs, GW cutting tournament support and external playtesting, blatant disregard of balance issues and rules questions (to the point of JJ promoting using the golden rule instead of actual rules!), and recent "balanced" codex releases, the route GW has chosen for its games has become quite obvious.

 

In an environment where rules don't matter and restrictions such as turn sequences are no longer part of "the game", lots of rolling on charts to generate random narrative elements may have a place.

 

Of course, that is no more a tabletop wargame (but rather an RPG with miniature representation set in the 40k universe) than a tale of two cities is chess.

[*Furyou Miko]

My father's party once walked down a corridor. On the wall was a picture. Behind the picture was a safe. The safe was not locked. The safe was empty. The safe was made out of magnesium. The floor was made out of steel. The walls were made out of flint.

 

This is the end result of where daemons have started to take us.

[daveNYC]

Sarcasm alert!

but actually, it is a valid consideration. With all the WD battle reports ignoring FOC/points costs, GW cutting tournament support and external playtesting, blatant disregard of balance issues and rules questions (to the point of JJ promoting using the golden rule instead of actual rules!), and recent "balanced" codex releases, the route GW has chosen for its games has become quite obvious.

In an environment where rules don't matter and restrictions such as turn sequences are no longer part of "the game", lots of rolling on charts to generate random narrative elements may have a place.

Of course, that is no more a tabletop wargame (but rather an RPG with miniature representation set in the 40k universe) than a tale of two cities is chess.

Ugh. Maybe that's how they're going, but random skills, equipment, and psyker powers don't really help craft a good narative for a character or army. Abaddon has some nice fluff that covers where he got his weapons and how awesome he is that he's got the marks of all four chaos gods. Can't really do the same thing for your own character if you don't know what he's got until you've rolled for it and what he's got changes every game.

[Brother Ambroz]

Well thankfully we don't have to worry about that too much with C:CSM. We can create our fluff knowing what equipment we give them although there is still the randomness with psychic junk, warlord traits and boons but still it's not nearly as random as daemons.

[Ammonius]

My father's party once walked down a corridor. On the wall was a picture. Behind the picture was a safe. The safe was not locked. The safe was empty. The safe was made out of magnesium. The floor was made out of steel. The walls were made out of flint.

 

This is the end result of where daemons have started to take us.

Time to start building some terrain to represent 10' x 10' stone corridors :)

 

Is it sad that (currently) I think I would only buy the CD codex so that I could use the most current version of daemons in campaign games like the haunted space station in Crusade of Fire?

[the jeske]

as expected.

 

but did it forge a narrative?

yes it did . there was dance and flowers and music . all about feel of the game we are.

 

 

 

 

How did they do in combat and shooting?

well we had to try armies without SW or eldar in them in the end , which kind of a cut out a lot of builds . horrors and all the other psychic powers are nice , in a world where eldar runes and rune staffs do not exist.

screamers were turned in to fire and forget missiles [we actualy had a lol tastics with them and harpies passing every possible save known to man , with the high light being lit up by 2 BA SR at double tap range and losing 0 models. sadly that was the only time harpies worked] . the giving of FnP is less painful then we initialy thought it would be . we didnt see any +2/+3 fnp units , even +4 FnP was hard . that is on normal units , the problem were PMs and other units which already have fnp + had some problems with how warp fire and BA priests work [another case of mot +landing pad] . so if your playing against armies that have base fnp or god forbid can spam fnp , you just gained some nice paper weights . otherwise you get a nerfed unit which forces you to focus fire and is random[but the second part could be said about almost everything in the dex].

 

we are done for today and the game is still slow even with people memorising most of the gifts etc ah and we play without myst terrain , so we are technicly 25% faster then what a JJ game would be.

 

 

 

 

Of course, that is no more a tabletop wargame (but rather an RPG with miniature representation set in the 40k universe) than a tale of two cities is chess.

 

well there were always people claiming that the game is just that in GW. sucks a bit for people who want to play a table top game[as in more the once in their life time with the same models] and not a random roll generator .

[Slayer le Boucher]

Well can't really say that 40k or even Battle, was designed has a competitive game from the start anyway, and no matter what through out the years, nothing that GW did, has ever made it into something competitive.

 

To have competition, you must have balance, so that only the player skills comes out and make the difference, we are far from it, maybe once every army will have his 6th book, it will change, but for now, i don't see it.

 

Friend of mine, did test his Deamon army last week, he actually had to loan models from other players to attaint 2000pts, with 100 Bloodletters et stil was too short, and thats something that is really telling you, that Deamons suffer a bit of a 2nd/3rd Ed transition syndrome, nearly the whole army feels different and has changed into something else.

 

Where CSm and DA's where roughly the same bare some changes, Deamons are really different.

[zyl-]

I'm very unsuprised that they would shift to a hoarde type of army. Nearly all the armies in the latest edition either switched to horde (addition of cultists) or are encouraged heavily to ally with IG, which is a horde of it's own. The meta switched to make blob squads better, etc. This is just all a ploy to increase model sales.

[Warsmith Aznable]

it also rised another problem for tournaments , the list that goes to the tournament orgs can be X gifts bough , but when your opponent wants to check your list , it cant be printed[or your carrying around a lot of paper with you with all the possible combinations or random vs picked items] and is tons of problems , if your playing against someone not used to demons . Very un "user friendly" army .

 

I wonder if this is a bonus or a drawback. With an army so random, can your opponent plan his strategy against you even if he knows you're coming?

[Urauloth]

Not knowing what you're going to have is probably more of a disadvantage for you than it is your opponent

[Muskie]

Is there any useful content in this thread? I just read the whole thing and I'm still not sure. People who want to use deamons can still use there deamons in 40K, people who want to win at all costs always hop around from army to army. It has been like that since Rogue Trader times, some people are all "oh new shiny rules/models", other people just stick to the same army.

 

Me I stick to the same army, of course I never actually get to play anymore, but I'll probably buy this book eventually to run demon allies for my CSM. I'll also probably buy the plastic plaguebearers and nurglings as I bought all the other plaguebearers and nurglings, I might even buy some other Nurgle stuff. 

 

If I'm trying my best to win, I honestly don't know what to field anymore, if i just want to put all my painted models on the table, I'll need this book as I have well over 50 painted Nurgle demons alone.

[Plaguecaster]

I agree with Muskie what are some good stuff in the codex and what are most of the Nurgle stuff like are great unclean ones a good HQ choice or are nurgle heralds better, also how have beasts of Nurgle and nurglings been affected by the new dex. Finally I know Plague bearers lost feel no pain for shrouded and are less tougher but do they have anything good about them.

[AekoldHelbrass]

To have competition, you must have balance, so that only the player skills comes out and make the difference, we are far from it, maybe once every army will have his 6th book, it will change, but for now, i don't see it.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

 

I'm very unsuprised that they would shift to a hoarde type of army.

Daemons are not a horde army. They have army-wide Deep Strike for a reason. The reason would be that they suck at being a horde, they are too expensive and fragile for this. Daemons + Skyshield would work great I imagine, some of your units running forward with icons, on the second turn you're rolling with skyshield, and if a unit has an instrument - another unit can arrive too.

 

Returning back to the original topic, I had a read through the codex, and here is my personal opinion:

1. Some units are right away scary on the table. 10 blodletters for the price of 22 cultists will make any 3+ army think if they really want that objective so badly.

2. That stupid table is rolled only if your primary detachment is Daemons, so no worries there.

3. 4 Heralds per HQ only for primary detachment sucks. Makes Heralds less desirable as allies, because greater daemons are just crazy! If you like bigger games - you can make it double allies detachment, but still you have to think if you really want those heralds if you can take both Bloodthirster and KoS or Skarbrand.

4. As with CSM, some lame wording was done by Kelly. For example on our local tables there are lots of difficult terrain, and I'd like to get Herald with Move Through Cover to my Seeker Cavalcade, but it's not really obvious if Herald can join.

5. Not having grenades can hurt a lot. There are some not very reliable ways to fix the situation with Khorne cannon thing or Fiends, but it makes you think if you really want to charge. Maybe Daemons players are used to it, but for me it's an important issue.

6. No bonuses for CSM whatsoever, Icons do not work to us, Instruments do not work to us, not a mention of CSM in CD, characters cannot join, I really have no idea why we even call them Battle Brothers. So I'd say unless you like Chaos and Daemons, there is no reason for CSM players to use Daemons as allies, we can get better things from IG and Orks.

[totgeboren]

I'm very unsuprised that they would shift to a hoarde type of army. Nearly all the armies in the latest edition either switched to horde (addition of cultists) or are encouraged heavily to ally with IG, which is a horde of it's own. The meta switched to make blob squads better, etc. This is just all a ploy to increase model sales.

 

I have to agree to this. I can hardly use my daemons now! For troops I got 6 nurgling bases and 10 plaguebearers, but no heralds. 6 Horrors, 6 Daemonettes, 8 Bloodletters, and these under-strength units are all metal 3:ed daemons, and I'm not sure I want to mix my lovely Diaz Damonettes with the new plastic models, and my Horrors (my favourite Chaos models) don't mesh with the new plastics at all... Still, it feels like I need to buy three boxes of models to be able to field all the models I got already, which feels iffy.

[the jeske]

I wonder if this is a bonus or a drawback. With an army so random, can

your opponent plan his strategy against you even if he knows you're

coming?

 a lot of good armies ignore what the opposing army is doing . my problem with demons aside for the speed is how fragile their lists are [that is ignoring the random aspect for a minute] . you make a nurgle spam list , with MC in support 1 unit of screamers . shroud gives you protection , MC give you power . all is well till you play against an army which ignores cover . Or psychic powers based armies. milion of shots , nice effects . dead if someone uses runes or staff. the armies just fall apart , because of the stats the basic models have and when one adds [minute up] the random aspect , it becomes a very unforgiving and unfun to play with list . wining because someone plays a better list is ok , better player ok . your own army rules  killing you , no thank you . possessed arent/werent fun . dreads werent fun an army based around random is not fun . look at orcs , their armies are top class ignoring of random effects.

 

 

 

 

1. Some units are right away scary on the table. 10 blodletters for the

price of 22 cultists will make any 3+ army think if they really want

that objective so badly

+5sv . no frags. no shoting . what do they hard counter 5 man melee meq units ?

[AekoldHelbrass]

+5sv . no frags. no shoting . what do they hard counter 5 man melee meq units ?

They are low price. Basically you'll have about 18 bloodletters for the price of 10 man MEQ squad with specials, you can either make them 2 squads of 10 or 1 bigger squad, when they charge 18 models squad they lose 6 models, you lose about 7 models, which is more than half for them and less than half for you. On the second turn they're wasted.

 

The same goes against shooting, if they will come into bolter range - they are exposed to your charge, where you will just slaughter them. And if they will try to come in numbers - you're still cheaper, you can come in bigger numbers.

 

At least those are my thoughts, if I had to fight Bloodletters - I'd think twice before even coming closer (and that's playing CC-oriented army), better to stop them with zombies or burn with dragons/vindicators where possible.

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

To have competition, you must have balance, so that only the player skills comes out and make the difference, we are far from it, maybe once every army will have his 6th book, it will change, but for now, i don't see it.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

 

 

Your link send me back to page 1 of this thread..., might be a mistake, as i fail to see what you want to show me.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Your link send me back to page 1 of this thread..., might be a mistake, as i fail to see what you want to show me.

Fixed, try again. That's quite interesting video, I never thought of that concept before. With only one problem: in case of 40k it makes sense only if there were no Necrons.

[Hellios]

 

Your link send me back to page 1 of this thread..., might be a mistake, as i fail to see what you want to show me.

Fixed, try again. That's quite interesting video, I never thought of that concept before. With only one problem: in case of 40k it makes sense only if there were no Necrons.

 

Perfect in balance still require balance, just that things are not perfectly balanced. Unfortunatly GW does not use either approach. If GKs ate deamons but lost to marines which were intern got eaten by daemons... That would be ok. As long as it was reasonably possible that you might beat GKs with Daemons. This stuff happens to a certain degree anyway. Also it would require regular updates of decent quality... Knowing GW this would A) Not happen. B) Be really expensive. It would be better however if internal and external balance of codices was much closer. There will always be a slightly better combination but the difference should be so small that it doesn't matter.

[Nehekhare]

Muskie, on 06 Mar 2013 - 04:52, said:
if i just want to put all my painted models on the table, I'll need this book

actually you just need a table.

[Shuggnuggath]

I reckon a Nurgle Herald, some plague bearers and a soul grinder are a great addition to any Chaos Marine army. Stick em in some cover or with an Aegis line and let them take care of an objective or something. 

Herald is 'cheap as chips' BS5 for some quad gun action and you can give him the feel no pain locus for a reasonable cost. The will also count as being armed with defensive grenades from all being nurgle. You can also give the champ and herald cheap AP2 swords if you want.

Soul Grinders seem a lot better than a lot of our own heavy support vehicles.

[Iron Sage]

Sarcasm alert!

but actually, it is a valid consideration. With all the WD battle reports ignoring FOC/points costs, GW cutting tournament support and external playtesting, blatant disregard of balance issues and rules questions (to the point of JJ promoting using the golden rule instead of actual rules!), and recent "balanced" codex releases, the route GW has chosen for its games has become quite obvious.

In an environment where rules don't matter and restrictions such as turn sequences are no longer part of "the game", lots of rolling on charts to generate random narrative elements may have a place.

Of course, that is no more a tabletop wargame (but rather an RPG with miniature representation set in the 40k universe) than a tale of two cities is chess.

Fair post, but you exagerate imo (and lol, Miko far more but in an amusing and funny way I might add).

I have issues with the "narrative" thing as well. I mean, I am 29 and I can think for myself and I have what is likely an above average level of immagination, so personally I find the "forge a narrative" stuff in the RB to be pretty much designed for kids, to help them get "immersed" in the fluff. But for me, and most of the friends I play with its completly "meh" and pages in the rule book that I just skim completly unimpressed to say the least (we forge our own superior narrative when we play).

I also dont like the challenge system. To me its a system that could have been fun and interessting, but that they made into a boring rule in the end, and which in many cases slows the game down for little actual purpose in the game (if challenges is to be such a great thing, the rewards for winning it should be greater and etc.). But I live with it, adapt. And then I end up not caring much. I mean, I just dont personally get the whine-factor on the forum. Its a game, its still very fun IMO, and while I dont love every detail, its still a game I very much like a lot. All of these negative exagerations, to me it jut automatically raises an eye brow, as my mind automatically forms the word "really" so to speak.

But yes, I do agree. Your point is a good one but exagerated. And since the exaggerated methodical negativity "Gets to me" in the long run, I am writing this pieace