Cmdr Shepard Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Eh, I ordered both the dex and the army book for fantasy today, hopefully they won't be too bad, if its yet more fail, I may very well stop updating my armies, and head towards taking a break from the hobby. Maybe go back to roleplaying for a few years, I'm hoping they will be good, but the quality of the last three armybook/dex releases from Gw have bluntly been awful. From what I read they shouldn't be a "fail army". Keep in mind I just read rumors ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3312540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dakath Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 So with daemonic assault gone imperial space marines are the only ones to have a null-deployment option (drop pod/deathwing assault). yay, thanks for fixing that, GW! more and more it becomes clear to me that all that is left of this game is big units of traitors/daemons/heretics/xenos running mindlessly into loyalist bolter fire. sad. Well from what I've seen you can choose to either deep strike your whole army OR set up standard on the field, you can mix and match as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3312544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I heard that the whole army has deep strike, not that you can deep strike the whole army. You'd still be limited to only 50% reserves, they'd still only start showing up on the second turn, and if your on-field contingent is killed off before they arrive you'd still lose the game automatically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3312589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 That's about it, then, isn't it? So much for it, I guess. Oh, well, daemons. Might have been fun. I think you're being way to negative here. Yes, daemonic assault is gone. It was one of the most hated and unreliable rules in the game. I sure won't miss it. Yes, screamers will most likely suck now. Did you expect otherwise? Everybody and their moms own 27 of these things by now, so of course they got nerfed. On the bright sight: MORE AP3 torrent weapons. These are some of the most powerful weapons in the game and we just got an opportunity to ally in more! And divination which means prescience on AC havocs, which is also amazing. So what if daemons lack AP2 now. The best way to deal with most things that have a 2+ is to torrent them down with a lot high S shots anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 So what if daemons lack AP2 now. ever had your bale/brands tanked , because your opponent has a termi WG on one side of the unit and a +2sv Hq on the other of every non +2 non transported unit he has ? The best way to deal with most things that have a 2+ is to torrent them down with a lot high S shots anyway. welcome to the world of sw chaos icon when for the crucial turn of shoting , he re-rolls all 1s. unless they made demons cost 8-10 pts per trooper , footslogging in this edition is does not work for guys runing around naked without a gun . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 So what if daemons lack AP2 now. The best way to deal with most things that have a 2+ is to torrent them down with a lot high S shots anyway. I'm not considering running daemons as their own army, I'm considering running them as allies for my chaos marines. My chaos marines don't need AP3 torrents, I already field two, and I already find that to be more than enough. I could field two more within a single force org if I wanted to. There's no way the daemon AP3 torrents will be better than drakes, so you'll still be running two of those, and two of those is enough to basically auto-win against anyone relying exclusively on marine infantry to begin with, so what's it matter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Didn't I hear something about daemons getting divination? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 and if you took them just for that , then just switch to SW . better basic powers , same divination , same 2 dudes per 1 hq slots and they get it without ally , so they can take IG as a bonus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Lets at least wait for their codex before you clank down on our daemon allies... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 where is the fun in that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Lets at least wait for their codex before you clank down on our daemon allies... why ? people already have them or seen them . plus my argument didnt even touch the demon dex . If someone wants a chaos style army and wants divination SW give that without taking ally . The demon buffs or synergy with our armies would have to be huge , for chaos+demons be better then an army out of just one codex. plus can you imagine what a footslogging melee army[they are nerfing the shoting/good units , which means melee is what is left in the codex] would have to do to be actualy viable ? 12" charge range ala our mauler as build in rule and a lowering of cost would have to happen . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Perhaps if you only ally with daemons for the divination...but what else are they getting? Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us since you seem to have full knowledge of what the codex offers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 So why are we the only "Battlebrothers" who can't mix our IC's and units? And why are we the only Space Marine book without Drop Pods again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 because we have daemons that are able to DS first turn as per their daemonic assault rule and do not scatter when within 6" of an icon and may even charge when....oh wait... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 At the very least, the battle brothers thing is supposedly going to be fixed. And I'm still hoping for more viable dreadclaw rules (just let it be taken as a transport, please) when FW gets around to re-releasing that model, even if I've pretty much given up on a GW version. I haven't given up completely on daemon allies as a thing. I mean, none of the new stuff looks useful to me so far (AP3 torrents are great, but again, I don't need allies for that), and the things I did like seem to be getting horribly nerfed, but there may yet be some useful things. I could use anti air and AP2. It seems daemons are losing most of the latter that they had (if the flamer chariot is AP3, you can bet flamers on their own won't be any better, and screamers are dead to me), but there seems to be a skyfire grinder build? Maybe for once it will be a skyfire option outside of fortifications that isn't horribly overpriced? And though I have little hope for it, maybe we'll get lucky and they'll reverse their policy on ally synergy. If my chaos marines could get some reserve manipulation or Deep Strike scatter mitigation out of daemon allies, that would certainly mean a lot to me. So yeah, maybe there's stuff I haven't seen that would make them more interesting. But here's the thing: I haven't seen it. And the book's awful close. And what does it sound like we're getting? It sounds like we're getting a mostly melee oriented book with few to no viable means of reaching melee, and no means of dealing with actually scary melee threats (ie, hammernators) when they get there, and while they won't run away and get cut down on a single flubbed combat round like so many of our 'melee' units, they still went out of their way to make sure that a poor round of combat punishes daemon melee units twice over with instability. So it sounds to me like Kelly still has no clue what it takes for melee to be a viable tactic in 6e. Also, it sounds like we're getting a bunch of new chariots, and last I checked chariots in 6e are terrible on their face. It's sounding more and more like a CSM situation, where the primary gimmicks of the faction just won't work, and if there's any viable builds its going to be by accident on account of some ranged support option that's too good being underpriced. But who knows? So no, I haven't abandoned hope without seeing the book. But I can't say I'm exactly optimistic, either. At least the cover looks nice, but I'd rather have fantastic rules with a terrible cover (like, say, my vamp counts; oh, kelly, how could you have fallen so far) than an awesome cover on lackluster rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't see GW allowing a codex without any viable builds to be released, after all they're trying to sell models. I think we should wait on the complete doom and gloom until then. Sure some stuff looks horrible but until we see the rules or leaked pages.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 We have started seeing rules and leaked pages, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Leaked pages of the codex? Like prior to our latest release? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Looks like the place I saw pages (BoLS) had them taken down already, but yeah, there were pages up with some statlines for some of the units, and descriptions of some of the special rules. Beasts of Nurgle have IWND, and such. I don't remember too much, it was a bit confusing to tell the fantasy pages from the 40k pages, and I only really glanced over them briefly. Didn't have the information I was most curious about (what's he deal with screamers now, and are the chariots sufficiently durable or just cheap enough to even be worth considering). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 The fantasy statlines have a movement characteristic, and from what I could see that was the whole page with points costs and stats. The 40k page was extremely blurry and only had a few nurgle options... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (what's he deal with screamers now, and are the chariots sufficiently durable or just cheap enough to even be worth considering). if we are talking about the tzeench one then no and a no. Perhaps if you only ally with daemons for the divination...but what else are they getting? Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us since you seem to have full knowledge of what the codex offers. Now that is assuming that I actualy saw the codex. I said people have it and that people are leaking it . there is also something like the use of old content . GW is not going to remove or remake all the demons . those bloodletters or netts are not going to start runing around with demonic bolters . ergo most of them are melee and melee is worse then shoting in 6th . what would you use the demons for ? the cavs are slow and on huge models , hard to hide . now technicly one could run them in a swarm , but csm codex isnt cheap enough to do that save for the zombi build and in a zombi build the last thing you want is cav[you want long range anti tank, not another tar pit/melee unit] . Maybe for once it will be a skyfire option outside of fortifications that isn't horribly overpriced? take a defiler . plop a flakk upgrade havocks get , but priced like upgrades are done for tanks[x4 most of the time and rounded up to end in a 5 or 0] and you will get your flakk platofrm . ah and no interceptor . So your low av huge defiler will be the main target for anti tank in turn 1-2 and from flyers. because we have daemons that are able to DS first turn as per theirdaemonic assault rule and do not scatter when within 6" of an icon and may even charge when....oh wait... :D . but I could imagine a herald of the khorn sort that lets the unit he is in charge after deep striking . FAQed in to demon army only , so that chaos players dont added them to raptors/talons=those have to suck for ever and terminators=those have to stay shoty for ever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 What I would use the daemon codex for? Well, that will have to wait until I actually see the codex... My point is, we don't know if they are going to suck yet. It could open up new venues for the CSM codex, like having a crusher bodyguard for your jugger axe lord, or late game DSing objective grabbers, or...well, we don't know yet, do we? We know what the old codex offered though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 We know what the old codex offered though... 1st turn DS, >50%DS, fearless, eternal warrior, AP2 screamers and flamers, FnP/4++/rending/AP3 without heralds, 160pts AV13 defilers, cheap HS daemon princes, not having to roll for psychic powers, non-random "psychic" powers, no instability, not having to roll on random tables each turn that wipe your army on a double-1. what do you expect from kelly after that CSMeh codex? lost fearless on oblits, lost homing icons, lost ability to field cults as troops without lords, lost daemon weapons (exept khorne), overpriced everything exept heldrake, bikers and lords, gained negative army rule to fail challenges, made old go-to choices inviable while trying to sell new models with overpriced special rules bloat and no synergy, army selection variety reduced to 2+ heldrakes. GW even fracked up DA Deathwing. Getting a new codex makes armies worse these days. Hope for not being "balanced" and not getting updated for a long time, like GK, SW, IG, BT. or just play loyal space marines: they get everything (drop pod assault, locator beacons, artificer armor, stormshields, PotMS, ATSKNF are all overpowered and these are just the basics) and you have 5 codices to choose from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Well, sorry for expecting even an ounce of optimism on this forum nowadays then. It seems to have been taken over by incurable pessimists...that are obviously psykers and can forsee the future... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Excuse me for basing expectations on pattern recognition and information we have so far. What have you heard that's actually good so far? I've heard a lot of negatives, and nothing positive yet beyond 'has divination', 'has an AP3 torrent', and 'has a skyfire option'. But the second of those is on a chariot, which is not a good sign, and the third is likely to be quite overpriced based on previous skyfire options, and even the first is mitigated by the likelihood that their psychers will have to burn at least one power on the underwhelming diety lores before taking any rulebook powers. The new stuff is jetbikes, which might be good, and chariots, which almost certainly are not, just because of how chariots work in 40k. And literally everything else we've heard is a cascade of nerfs. Random roll every turn that can hurt you. Units lose their special rules unless you buy them pricey heralds. No more full deep strike. No more first turn deep strike. So a bunch of mostly melee units without transport and with poor defenses having to hoof it across the board, most of them lacking grenades to boot, and suffering from instability if they flub a combat round. No, we haven't seen everything. Yes, there could still be hidden positives to get excited about that could make daemons awesome and interesting. No, I haven't given up all hope. But whether I'm optimistic or pessimistic depends on whether I've heard good or bad things, and right now I've heard almost exclusively bad things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271595-our-friends-from-the-warp/page/4/#findComment-3313754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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