Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yeah, because we had so much information about all the competitve choices for both CSM and DA in their respective White Dwarfs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Not just going by white dwarf stuff here, but in the CSM situation at least things were worse than they looked immediately prior to release, why are you thinking that daemons will somehow be better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Obviously I have as little basis for my opinion as you do, since the codex isn't even released yet and the amount we know about it is almost non-existant. Any conclusions drawn from our current knowledge wouldn't hold much water anywhere...except on an internet forum filled with pessimists of course! Â The rules and stats aren't the only factor you have, there is the points cost as well as an example. Wouldn't it be better to wait with the over-exaggerated pessimism until we actually know what we are dealing with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 What you call "pessimism" is just a realistc assessment based on hard facts from the WD and experience with latest codex releases, commonly shared by literally every tabletop news site and players with access to the same information. What is your optimism based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hard facts? You make me chuckle, you have a small part of the complete picture at best. Latest codex releases? You are not a sports fan are you? "Yeah, my team lost the last two games, so they'll loose every single game for the entire season now..." My optimism is based on that we know almost NOTHING of the codex, and perhaps that I personally am an optimist by nature that tries to work with what I have and not abandoning ship the first chance I get... [Edit]: I knew I should have quoted your original post. And just because a thing is repeated many times does not make it true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 **** it! Be negative if you want, I don't care anymore! Â Here is a picture of a sleeping kitten to make you happier! Â http://www.petside.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fullsize_article/essential_kitten_supplies_list.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Chuckle all you want, but the information in the WD is here to stay, regardless of what may or may not be added to it. No, I'm not a sports fan (I do sports rather than watch others doing it). I'm a wargamer playing 40k for over 15 years now, so I'm obviously disqualified for assessments about 40k on a 40k forum. If your optimism is based on the assumption that we know nothing, then you are simply wrong. If is is based on the hope that somehow, there will be rules that counterbalance all the nerfs we already know of and/or even swing the wheel around, you're naive, but at least not necessarily wrong. thanks for the kitten, this contribution was much more helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 What I would use the daemon codex for? Well, that will have to wait until I actually see the codex...  My point is, we don't know if they are going to suck yet. It could open up new venues for the CSM codex, like having a crusher bodyguard for your jugger axe lord, or late game DSing objective grabbers, or...well, we don't know yet, do we? We know what the old codex offered though... how do you "late" objective grab when the rules for reservs are what they are in 6th ed ? and what does a unit of juggers [high cost melee unit] give chaos players wanting to use chaos lord[high cost melee HQ] , when what they actualy need in their lists is anti av13?   calling something which is bad/weak , bad or weak when it is just that has nothing to do with optimism . I for example waited with delight for the DA codex after the chaos dex . as I said before . For a melee army[demons are melee ,as I think we all agree that flamers wont be the way they are now . even without seeing the codex or leaked material] to work , it would have to be very low cost[melee demons are never low cost] and have 12" charge range stock on every unit and even then the codex would have huge problems with flyers , because out of the stuff that is shoting , most of it uses templates [or is low str] . you dont have to be a psyker to know how units will work and how the codex will look like if you saw at least one codex from the edition and the rule book .      The rules and stats aren't the only factor you have, there is the points cost as well as an example. Wouldn't it be better to wait with the over-exaggerated pessimism until we actually know what we are dealing with? but points costs for this edition are already fixed . after 2 dex you can tell how much an elite unit will cost, how much a double kit unit will cost etc. no one is over-exaggerating anything and it is not hard to imagine what will be in the demon dex . read the DA and chaos one and check the box for those armies and you will see .   My optimism is based on that we know almost NOTHING ofthe codex, and perhaps that I personally am an optimist by nature that tries to work with what I have and not abandoning ship the first chance I get... yeah we no nothing save for what the models/unit choices will be in the codex , the price points for dual kits being the same in all dex . GW not chaning any basic rules . no leaks of nettes or letters armed with guns . leaks of new chariot models and the chariot rules we got at the time the codex was being tested . how gear/warlord trait/HQ cost/FoC changing works in dex in 6th ed .the fact that GW nerfs the models which were bought a lot for non loyalist marines . yeah we dont anything about the dex.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Simple fact is GW stopped using most/all of it's external playtesters when it raised it's Iron Curtain. This made the game inevitably tested by a reduced number of fanboys at HQ who are limited by time and workload. We've seen this happen with the FAQ's; entire sections don't work properly that need to be FAQ's (and have), massive power differences between units to the point of playing against MEQ with 3 Helldrakes means you win 9/10, or Necrons flying lists.  From working as a tester in IT environments cutting testing leads to a much poorer product. We have a much poorer product. DA DW knight sillyness, VoTLW sillyness, AP3 torrent Flamers (yes they are overpowered if you can spam them like we can). GW needs proper playtesting and actually listen to them. Not Iron Curtains and ignoring they're customer base.  That's why I think there will be major problems with the new Daemons Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hard facts? You make me chuckle, you have a small part of the complete picture at best. Latest codex releases? You are not a sports fan are you? "Yeah, my team lost the last two games, so they'll loose every single game for the entire season now..." My optimism is based on that we know almost NOTHING of the codex, and perhaps that I personally am an optimist by nature that tries to work with what I have and not abandoning ship the first chance I get... [Edit]: I knew I should have quoted your original post. And just because a thing is repeated many times does not make it true... An optimist isn't someone who tries to work with what they've got. An optmist is someone who believes that everything will come out alright in the end. A pessimist is someone who thinks everything will turn out for the worse. Neither of those have anything to do with abandoning ship or not. Now and again abandoning the ship is the right course of action. A realist on the other hand prefers to look at the world as it is... Although in this scenario there is a fair bit of speculation... We are dealing with the unknown. People think I'm a pessimist, but they are wrong. I hope for the best, but I prepare for the worse. If you are stuck in the wilderness (two hours away from the nearest medical facility) and your friend needs complex surgery withing half an hour if he is to survive., do you... A) Try and do the surgery yourself (you have no medical knowledge in this scenario) and hope for the best. Hey even if he dies you won't get in trouble... RIGHT!?!? RIGHT!?!? B) Head back home and hope that he will hold out, or that a wild brain surgeon will appear. Knowing in your heart that your friend is probably among the walking dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The white dwarf list does give us points cost insight, btw. We won't be dealing with a cheap-as-chips horde army, here that can afford to slog across the board and play attrition wars. Cheaper than before, sure, but with the lost of daemonic incursion and many special rules, the daemonic melee-units-that-aren't-so-hot-at-melee are going to have a hard time slogging across the board, and an even harder time doing anything when they get there.  It's not that I think daemons will be unplayable. Some fastish cav units and ranged support trying to hold the fort while waiting for your obligatory troops to deep strike in, maybe. I'm just not seeing what exactly daemons will be adding to CSM forces worth mentioning. We already have AP3 torrents and mediocre melee units.  Again, I haven't abandoned all hope. But I'm not feeling optimistic about the things we've already heard and seen, which is very far from 'nothing' at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Abandon all hope, ye who enter here... Â I'm a pessimist. Always have been. Life is better this way. I expect we'll see AP4 flamers and Screamers with a S4 AP- Armourbane melee attack. I expect we'll see T5 Lords of Change who have to spent 50 points to gain wings and 25 points/level to gain psi-powers. I expect we'll see Horrors gain a Mastery Level for every 6 models in the unit, and be something like 80 points for the first four then 13 points/model after that, with a unit size of 4-20. Oh, and they know powers from the Tzeentch list like so: ML1: they know Firestorm. ML2: they know Boon. ML3: they know Breath. I expect they'll have their basic Daemon save, and then as Tzeentch daemons, they'll be able to reroll failed saves of a 1. I expect the flame chariot will be a heavy support choice with AV10 all round and 2 HP, but an AP3 torrent flamer and move like a regular skimmer. If we're lucky, it'll be 100 points and if it dies, so does the exalted flamer on top. Â But who knows? Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. But I don't think I'm going to be disappointed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Â Abandon all hope, ye who enter here Dante (the real one). I don't have much hope for deamons. I have the feeling bloodletters will be the daemon couterpart of our berzerkers. Half assed close combat unit in the most shooty edition of 40k. Daemonic instability will pobably break the army and make it unplayable in the later stages. The loss of Eternal Warrior will make most MC useless (or just not good). Bah. Typical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 This thread is distressing. Nobody is excited about the new daemons, and for good reason. GW rules-authorship is bad to the point of incoherency, and their business model is unfeeling and shortsighted.  I am not at the point of saying that 40k is going down the tubes, but it sure ain't getting better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Faeit has posted some interesting stuff up http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/chaos-daemon-information-instability.html  Bloodthirster looks nasty as hell re-rolling all it's failed to hit and wound in CC and with a very high combat stat line. Shame about the lack of changes it seems to Bloodletters. Basic troops stay the same, points have been reduced minimal Bloodletters – reduced by a point Daemonettes – reduced by 2 points but are now strength 4 on the charge. Plague bearers – reduced by 3 points a model but have lost feel no pain but gained shrouded. Pink horrors- increased by 2 points but have better saves. Daemonic Instability looks a little confusing. Basically looks like Fearless 5th edition as it has not effect on shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013  Faeit has posted some interesting stuff up http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/chaos-daemon-information-instability.html  Bloodthirster looks nasty as hell re-rolling all it's failed to hit and wound in CC and with a very high combat stat line. Shame about the lack of changes it seems to Bloodletters. Basic troops stay the same, points have been reduced minimal Bloodletters – reduced by a point Daemonettes – reduced by 2 points but are now strength 4 on the charge. Plague bearers – reduced by 3 points a model but have lost feel no pain but gained shrouded. Pink horrors- increased by 2 points but have better saves. Daemonic Instability looks a little confusing. Basically looks like Fearless 5th edition as it has not effect on shooting. I wonder what madness drove Kelly into making plague bearers losing FNP. I hope Daemon book will have less numbers of nonsense choices than CSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I wonder what madness drove Kelly into making plague bearers losing FNP. I hope Daemon book will have less numbers of nonsense choices than CSM. Yeah, that makes no sense. Apparently FnP is soooo good in 6th that they had to take it away. I was looking at the old Hordes of Chaos army book the other day and plaguebearers were T4 without FnP back then (and they sucked). It would seem that daemons are 'going back to their roots,' as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Wow, if that is accurate, then instability seems even worse than expected, as even if you win combat by a significant amount, you can still unstable out of existence if the combat was bloody enough. Â Like, say you have 12 fighty but frail daemons (a common trait of daemon units) fighting 16 guard. Â thanks to cover, the guard strike first and inflict, say, 4 casualties, with the daemons causing 8 in return. Â You've won the combat by four, but you still suffered more than 25% casualties, and still must make a leadership test -4, potentially losing several more models and likely leaving your unit reduced almost nothing. Â Frankly, I'm not too upset over it, simply because that can't be right. Â It has to be based on losing the combat, not simply casualties suffered. Â It has to be. Â Â otherwise, the grinder looks pretty hideously expensive. Â I wonder if it's output was significantly increased, or if I'm just going to have to write it off. Â In fact, everything looks pretty hideously expensive, and I don't like that bit about your psychic powers being potentially devastating to your own side.... Â Â All in all, not a page that improves my outlook at all, mitigated only by the fact that it all sounds so made up (I thought T7 greater daemons in particular was already a debunked rumor, and the instability can't be right, and I thought the psy powers were already confirmed to be the same as in the CSM book, and none of those cause significant self harm). Â Remember how we had some wildly inaccurate rumors right before our release (dreads with quality weapons and mark based bonuses in particular comes to mind)? Â I'm going to choose to believe that's what's going on here, and this is just a bunch of bunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Horrors increased cost by 2 points just for a better save? so either still a 4+ and re-rolling 1's or a 3+ save, how do they work that out when the other three are reduced in cost? and they happen to be the only ranged troops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I ended up making a order for the Warstore and got some paint and a box of those screamers. I probably will just end up painting them because I liked how they looked (evil little manta-ray bastards) or maybe using one for a DoT with a guy riding him Goku-On-Nimbus style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Yeah, tbf faeits rumours have been pretty damn erratic the last six months or so. People should start to get the books on thursday, so we will know more then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013   Abandon all hope, ye who enter here Dante (the real one). I don't have much hope for deamons. I have the feeling bloodletters will be the daemon couterpart of our berzerkers. Half assed close combat unit in the most shooty edition of 40k. Daemonic instability will pobably break the army and make it unplayable in the later stages. The loss of Eternal Warrior will make most MC useless (or just not good). Bah. Typical. I would rather say that the high cost of a upgraded MC makes them bad. EW isnt as important when your flying [well at least till you get grounded of course]. But awesome stats or not would you run a 300pts HQ that cant join units and gets droped to the ground by aegis and other flyers.  what the demon codex lacks is a good flyer [not MC] a mega screamer , with transport ability for tzeench units and tiered sweaping attakcs[d3 uber strong. 2d3 str 7 . 3d3 str 4 all at mc ap 2].    Horrors increased cost by 2 points just for a better save? so eitherstill a 4+ and re-rolling 1's or a 3+ save, how do they work that out when the other three are reduced in cost? and they happen to be the only ranged troops  the people that didnt see the dex are saying that maybe GW wants demons to be a melee army and tries to make shoting as limited/hard to run as possible out of this dex.     You've won the combat by four, but you still suffered more than 25%casualties, and still must make a leadership test -4, potentially losing several more models and likely leaving your unit reduced almost nothing. biker libby/RP/sorc ride by . psychic scream . some dead dudes. oh lost 25% ? let me roll 2d6 this time :D . but the best must be . libby cast dangerous terrain . demons move . some roll a 1 . die . 25% some more die . overwatch more die . different phase so we roll again[first 25% was durning movment this is assault] even more die. oh poor demons ye have no frags . more die . demons kill some dudes :trollus maximus: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 If they want Daemons to be a melee army they need to make them:  1) good at melee 2) be able to get to melee 3) not suffer extra wounds from melee results 4) have a means of dealing with heavy armor and 2+ save units in melee 5) be cheap and affordable or super durable to be able to take shooting casualties on the way to melee  And they need all of these thing at the same time.  Not one durable unit that is meh at melee and has no good way to get there, and one unit that is good at melee but so expensive that one or two casualties will neuter them.  And with the entire army suffering extra wounds in melee, the whole proposition seems to be just borked out of the gate.  I expect daemons will turn out to be a 'melee' army to the same degree that CSMs are.  Ie, a predominantly shooting army with maybe one or two melee elements (and even then those will likely be by accident - see bikers, which were clearly intended as the shooty equivalent to melee raptors, but ended up being better at both). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I fogot one more thing imagine the tempest gets a table like this . you could be making even more instability tests on your own turn :D . Â Â 2: all units take a d. instability test3: one daemon char tests on Leadership with 3D6 and takes wounds like d.instability4: all daemons -1 ward save5: tzeentch displeased, roll D6 for all enemies and nurgle units, on a 6 hit by a 5" template S4, AP5 barrage6: nurgle displeased roll d6 for all enemies and tzeentch units, on 6 D6 hits with S4 Ap3, poison, ignore cover7: nothing8: slaanesh displeased, roll d6 for all enemies and khorne units, on 6 D6 hits with S6, Ap-, ignore cover, rending9: khorne displeased , roll d6 for all enemies and slaanesh units on 6 hit by a 3" template S8, ap310: +1 wardsave for daemons11: one enemy psyker test on Leadership with 3D6, if failed he explodes and you get a new herald in his place12: a new troop unit of your choice (bloodletter, plaguebearer, horror, daemonette) is summoned, 2D6+3 models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Don't get me wrong, I'm grumpy too, but I think there's enough to be grumpy about without imagining things, Jeske. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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