Slayer le Boucher Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yes, but being cavalery and gaining +1W doesn't make up for the lose of T5 and 3+ armor, if they where priced at 20pts per models, like CSM bikes, then it would be a "not-so-bad-of-a-mother:cussin" bargain, has it is?, i'm really considering, takeing my crushers apart to convert them into Khorne Jetbikes and playing them as Nurgle Drones... Also considering Winged Bloodletters for screamers..., well at least Flesh hounds din't get worst... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 They lost the 3+ from the jugger? What the hell man.....yeah my daemons are going away for awhile.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 lost the 3+, lost a point of toughness, cost more, move faster, gained a wound, better weapon upgrade on the champ. It's a mixed bag - but not on the balance a positive one from where I'm sitting right now, though I could be proven wrong. Not sure how common exactly S8 shooting is in most parts, S7 seems to get a lot of weight where I am, but anything with that kind of strength will wreck the crushers in record time, and with only T4, 6+/5++, and about as many wounds/point as a space marine, they're going to drop pretty fast to small arms fire and regular melee attacks as well. The enemy may only get 1 to 2 rounds of shooting at them before they charge, but it seems to me like that should be enough to wittle them down to the point that even weaker targets overwatching and striking first via cover may be enough to beat them in combat and let instability finish them off. Seems like you'd be better off with seekers, who have more wounds and attacks per point and don't have to worry about instant death since they're one wound apiece anyway. Unfortunately, where the crusher models are fantastic, the seeker models really, really aren't, so.... yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Anything on fiends? Fiends and crushers were my favorite units in the old codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7697/m1310583a99129915007blo.jpg Add exhaust pipes, and here you have Khorne's flying cavalery(Drones) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Actually the Harvester Canon has 2 profiles, 3 Autocanon shots and a different profile with 3 Autocanon shots Skyfire, so he is never stuck out of shooting with his cannon, even if there is no flyers. what are you going to shot with 6 str 7 shots . its costs too much for what it does . if it was a rifle man of some kind[anything either 4 twink linked or 8 hades shots from it] then we could think about it doing something . but 6 str 7 shots do nothing to other lists [ground versions] and 3 str 7 arent even that good against flyers with so many of them being av 12 . again an anti aircraft unit without interceptor with str7 is bad when it costs that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It's a AV 13 walker with 5++, 4A, 4HP and 1.5 skyfire autocannons that can deepstrike for 150pts (MoN gives shrouded, MoT rerolls saves of 1, rest sucks). add battlecannon/torrent hvy flamer/S10 for 20-30 each. not that bad... or it may just be the only thing so far that doesn't sound like total crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yeah I dunno Jeske but the Soulgrinder is sounding pretty decent, especially when the rest of dex is full of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It's a AV 13 walker with 5++, 4A, 4HP and 1.5 skyfire autocannons that can deepstrike for 150pts (MoN gives shrouded, MoT rerolls saves of 1, rest sucks). add battlecannon/torrent hvy flamer/S10 for 20-30 each. not that bad... or it may just be the only thing so far that doesn't sound like total crap. I'm kind of liking the idea of an AA Soulgrinder. I have an old Defiler conversion that I think would be good to re-convert for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It's a AV 13 walker with 5++, 4A, 4HP and 1.5 skyfire autocannons that can deepstrike for 150pts (MoN gives shrouded, MoT rerolls saves of 1, rest sucks). add battlecannon/torrent hvy flamer/S10 for 20-30 each. not that bad... or it may just be the only thing so far that doesn't sound like total crap. ok let go over this again . av13 walker with inv . ok stats doesnt cost that much[as in naked] . but AA wise , not that good . str7 sucks and there is too few of those shots to work , max you can get is 9 [that is taking 3 of those] and we will be investing a lot of points and all our hvy support in to this and it will be armed with autocannons only . we can make it better , but it costs a lot of points[600pts out of 1500pts list] . yes it can deep strike but now we are realy piling in random on random. who gets to start, who gets his flyer/fiend first , where does it scater . that is a lot of what ifs and we are taking this as a hvy support/anti flyer choice. to make an example if oblits had to pick 2 weapons prior battle and AC would be flakk , how offten would we deep strike them ? having a bonus rule doesnt always means it is good or useful . long range wise yes it is the best hvy support .the khorn cannon is made to kill IG maybe and even they could just be runing +4 inv for their troops and laugh at the gun. but doesnt mean it is good . the fiend aint no helldrake or valk and that is what I class as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Out of curiosity what are the Plague drones are they flying monstrous creatures or jetbikes???? it is a bit hard to guess, also any word on what stats or rules they have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 jump infantry. if they were flyinc MC oh man I would run 3 max units . sweaping , getting cover boosted by mark of nurgle , ap 2 , smash . would have been a dreamy unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I don't get why it's half shots against fliers, apart from AA just having to suck by some unspoken rule. It's only BS3, so going from six shots hitting on six to three shots hitting on four isn't even all that big an upgrade against fliers anyway, only takes you from one average hit to 1.5. You're significantly less likely to get zero hits with the AA setting, but then again the regular shot can potentially get more hits. And Jeske's right that S7 really doesn't cut it for AA duties, and lacking interceptor is a major penalty for any anti air gun. If Daemons had other significant AA options, then the AA profile on the harvester would be a nice little touch of versatility, but anyone relying on soul grinders to take care of air threats is going to run into a lot of trouble against necrons spamming scythes or guard spamming valkyries or even chaos marines spamming drakes. Setting aside the AA issue for a moment, though, I still kind of like the soul grinder as an AV13, 4HP, daemonic walker with a six shot autocannon for 150ish points. Not sure what if any upgrades I'd get it, but still. As its own thing, fliers aside, it looks ok to me. Fliers is an issue, one that really only allies can help daemons with, and even then only so much, making daemons more of a book you'd take as allies, which spares you one of the lousy random charts, but as allies they're basically objectively worse than guard for chaos, and who else would even want daemons as allies, so..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Yeah purely as AA it's not effective enough (btw the gun has only 3 shots in both profiles), but with another gun tacked on for 170-80, you basically get a better Defiler (cannon with MoN behind aegis for 2+ cover) or Ironclad (DS with flamer, MoT). And who plays daemons as primary anymore? I wonder if it gets anything like xtra-armor or daemonic possession...someone with a codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It seems like GW is attempting to 'kill' the competitive scene. From what you guys are saying, the only people who are going to be playing Daemons are people who are noobs, or die-hard daemon fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It seems like GW is attempting to 'kill' the competitive scene. From what you guys are saying, the only people who are going to be playing Daemons are people who are noobs, or die-hard daemon fans. I don't think it's that, I think they've lost the plot. They don't listen to the customers, they have no decent way for customers to give proper feedback and they have no desire to admit they made a mistake (y'know, except in 5 years when they bring out the new book to sell). I personally think online books are the future, but until they expand out of the Apple farm, they won't do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 And who plays daemons as primary anymore? we have a whole sub forum for 1ksons , god knows why they play those as since 2ed they were always bad. I guess some people may still want to use their armies . the sad part about demons is that there arent even good choices there , when all the time you have this random table hanging over your head to slap you hard.almost like playing an army of chaos dreadnoughts . as ally . demons are also meh [well for us . for orks or tau that is a bit different] , why spend ~200pts on an AA gun when you can spend 130pts on an aa flying tank which can transport more melta/plasma . If we could at least added the heralds to units of our demonic dudes , imagine what battles would Yeske do with people claiming nurgle possessed with a herald of nurgle are now good. But the realy shoker is months away . those people playing chaos marines and demons will realy have problems with imagining how the same dude could write their dex and the eldar one . I hope I will be there to see the reactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It's policy. Getting the Hobbit depended on plugging the rumor holes, which meant cutting playtesting, which leads to crappy rules. @jeske: everybody already has problems to understand how CSM/CD and SW came from between the same sideburns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 yeah , well maybe not exactly that , but when you have a playtest time which is very local , then you run in to problems with making a game for just that one local enviroment. for example I do get the lack of anti AA or good flyers in new dex [3 dex .1 ok flyer. no real anti aircaft units] , if the world is all FW , all the time . It makes sense then , but then you have main land europe which not only is played at smaller points then the DT intended it [because of how long the game got with all the extra rolling. range checking etc] , but without FW and suddenly the game makes 0 sense to people . But I could also be wrong , JJ remember back in the early 2000s talking with JJ at the Hamburg toy fair and back then he was as crazy as he is now . Banging on the table telling us that the awesomness of their games is in the fact that clear rules arent realy needed to play them , just two dudes and dice. I was almost 10 years younger back then and I tell you it shocked me to the core . + the fact that the women on their team intruduced herself as sister something and I got card from another dude which told his job at the firm is "company chaplain" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 I. HATE. the way quoting works on these new forums. It's awful. Just ... dammit... put the bbc code in my reply. This system sucks hard. So: @Nehek: only 3 shots regardless? Never mind then. Its gun is lousy for its base cost, and its upgrades make it too expensive. If the harvester is 3 shots normally, I take back anything nice I said about the soul grinder. @Jeske: Don't you play Thousand Sons? @Kelly: I wish I had a table to flip. I'm a human bean, Mr. Kelly. How could you betray me? I'm feddup wit this whirl. The game takes too long, costs too much, the rules suck, the writers don't give a crap, failcast blows, why am i still in this hobby? At least in Fantasy the armies are better balanced - but the rulebook magic lores still suck the fun out of the game, which still takes way too long and costs way too much to play (average unit size in 8e doubles, models per box drops by half, price per box goes up? All so you can spend half an hour setting up the unit, five minutes losing it to a single irresistible spell, then another half hour putting them away? NO.) Why am I even playing this game anymore? Is it really just sunk cost fallacy? Is that the only thing stopping me from just tossing all my 40k stuff in a bin? It's cliche, but Warmachine looks better and better. Sure the models aren't as good, and cost just as much, and the rules aren't any better balanced, but at least the scale is more manageable and the game faster and individual factions don't need to wait five years or more to see anything new. I'm going to be happy in 10 or so years time when the price of 3d scanning and printing has dropped to the point that the business model just completely falls out of the minis game market. At that point decent rules will be all a company can sell, so whoever ends up with the IP after GW goes under will have to actually try to make a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Does anyone else get the feeling that the sculptor that came up with the khorne daemon canon cycle craptastic model played with too much he-man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 @Jeske: Don't you play Thousand Sons? stupid quoting system ate my post. I test everything . It is sad that the better magic warrior army is made out of GK . sometimes I just think that before the DT makes a new w40k chaos dex , they sit down in a dark room with blinking yellow lights , Ward stands up and goes "Ladies and Gentelmon , how are we going to make tzeench suck this time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Is this a B&C Chaos forum or warseer?Seriously guys, cease trolling immediately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Who are you , I dont know you from here or other forums ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Don't worry. I have a couple of long-range schemes to get that meeting opener changed... >< Very long-range... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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