Guest Drunk Guardian Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 This thread is to discuss the viability of Wolf Guard Terminators configured for assault, similar to C:SM assault termies. I'll start by agreeing with virtually everyone that TH/SS termies are too damn expensive for SW. Fortunately, hammers aren't necessary for success and Wolf Guard have other tools. Now, consider the following loadout: 2x Power Axe / Storm Shield 3x Wolf Claw / Power Fist This unit comes out to 240... Head to head with an all TH/SS squad it will lose, but not before giving it a beating in return, and the hammer squad doesn't have the flexibility that the claws provide for all comers. Many Marine generals instead prefer to run something similar to the unit I laid out. This unit is more cost effective, but it will lose to the Wolf unit head to head since its lightning claw termies won't hurt the Wolf termies much, but every WG will be able to hit at AP2. Typically, Marines will run their assault termy squads with a null zone librarian. A rune priest with tda or runic armor recovers 20 of the extra 40 points the WG paid. Further, the Rune Priest will have a more profound effect on combat, being able to shut down the Librarian's Null Zone and granting Divination powers to the WG. Prescience alone is worth its weight in gold for assault terminators, not to mention some other BRB powers. So, taking the combined cost of Librarian w/ Tda & SS and unit of assault terminators vs the cost of TDA Rune Priest & Wolf Guard assault terminators, we pay 20 points more for the following benefits: Runic weapon Divination powers Five models that can hit at AP2 rather than two OR The flexibility of claws I think that's 20 points well spent. It won't beat an all TH/SS unit but it doesn't have to. Overall, its a middle ground between all TH/SS termies and mixed squads that include Lightning Claws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatGrinder Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Thing is, for this to be effective, you need to really invest. You dont want them footslogging, because they'll lose one or two at least to shooting. If you need a delivery system put them in a LR and thats another 250 points, and if you're already investing so much, why not go all out? Remember the RP is a meh combat unit, with just his I4, anything killy will be striking first, and MEQs striking simultaneously. Assaultterminators aren't bad as such, they just dont see a lot of use because they don't really have a place in how most wolves lists work. We're usually hopping out of transports and rapidfiring before we eat the counter-charge. A unit with no ranged weapons is either left slogging it accross the board, or spending a turn being a big bullseye after they hop out of their pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I understand we pay a little more for termies, but ours are better specifically because we can customize. Our termies can do ANYTHING. That's what makes them better. Having a couple of different options and some firepower to boot is worth the cost, IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'd rather spend the points on shooty terminators with a mix of wolf claws, power axes, and chainfists. Then I don't have to worry about one jerk with a meltagun stranding them in my backfield. In addition, 10 TDAWGs with Prescience make a nice midboard control unit. Half that number, take away their guns, and you have a unit that lacks the bodies to keep the Rune Priest safe, and lacks the attacks to kill units outright. Doing enough damage to break units without wiping them means your inability to Sweeping Advance will just get you rapid fired in the face. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Lately I've had a decent ammount of success with a 5 man squad with two Termies armed with a pair of wolf claws, two with TH/SS and one with an Assault Cannon and Chainfist. Not particularly excellent at any one thing but decent at most things and it does my typical Terminator job of drawing attention away from the less scary looking but far more effective units in my list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 personally i don't take th/ss terms, you can save points (admittedly only 5 per model i think) by giving them a powerfist instead, yeah you lose the concussive rule but honestly how often do you really come across units immune to str8 instant death with multiple wounds? it's pretty rare on the whole in my experience, and most of what is out there strikes at i1 anyway so being able to reduce them to that seems a bit pointless to me. unfortunately the hammers do look extremely cool compared to the fists, but they still look quite epic. i personally run an all round unit with 2 or 3 combi weapons and normally 2 pf/ss to tank for the unit. sometimes i put a dual wc in as well but having read stuff on here that might well become a wc/pf edit: my wolf guard tend to come in drop pods hence the 5 man setup Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 for nearly 10 points cheaper you could have 7 WG with just power axe and storm bolters. personally id go for 10 with a couple of CML. So you can footslogg and be causing a lot of damage from turn one and all for less than 400 points!!! But even with 7 and no CML you get 2 extra wounds, lots of extra attacks, ap2, strength 6, and can still fire off 14 strength 4 shots before you assault which will have a good chance to kill one of those TH/SS termies you are thinking of sending these guys into. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arraken Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Bah, having them with melee weapons is so Wolfy. I see myself having to make numerous termies now. Some for geared for only assault, some geared to all rounders. Guess I will mix them up in each game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 What can look more wolfy than a giant axe ??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 the problem i have with axes is that they are i1, if you are going to be hitting last anyway why not just go all out and get a fist/hammer? yeah costs more points but is way more effective although on rule of cool terms you cannot beat a massive axe for a sw Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 its only 2 extra strength points but adds nearly 1/3 to his cost 33pts vs 43pts ??? So for every 3 WGTDA with PF you could nearly have 4 with Axes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I've not done it, but one of the real strengths of our Wolf Guard would be spamming "basic" terminators. If I'm not mistaken, we have the least expensive terminators if you spam them with storm bolters and power weapons. Using Logan, this can be a troop choice. Personally, I prefer the power armor route, mixing in hunters, etc., but there is a legitimate argument to make for spamming wolf guard with basic armament. Maybe outfit most of the models in this manner and then you can mix in a few more specialized troops with close combat, heavy weapons, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 in 1850pts you "could have" Logan - 275pts 10 x WG in TDA, 2x CML - 390pts 10 x WG in TDA, 2x CML - 390pts 10 x WG in TDA, 2x CML - 390pts 10 x WG in TDA, 2x CML - 390pts 16 move and fire krak missiles, 40 2+5++ wounds. Lots of Ap2 cc attacks. or swap the CMLs for combi weapons which is even cheaper which would also give you 40 plasma gun shots :) You would lose you storm bolters though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 yeah although from a purely modelling point of view finding a decent source of power axes is pretty difficult given you get 1 per box i do see your point about how much they cost though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare84 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 But you are foot slogging it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Ill post up a pick of mine later but I am using the axes from the standard grey hunters pack but making it a 2 headed axe. really easy conversion. You get them on ebay for no more than a pound each so pretty cheap although it does annoy me that after paying £28 for a kit for 5 models I still have to then source lots more options to build what I want. Thats for another thread though, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 that annoys me with combi weapons, it is one of our best options for wolf guard, but do we get a single one in any of our boxes? anyway not going into that. would love to see a pic of that axe, i like those ones so as a double bladed one it sounds like it could be really cool Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 When I field Termies squads it is 3 with 2xcombi-meltas/flamers and pw and 1xasscannon/heavy flamer in a drop pod. These guys are sent to destroy first turn prioritues in the flank or rear of the enemy like tanks, Lootas, etc. and then if they survive the onslaught they are a nuisance for the enemy until they are finally destroyed. They are cheap and fuction OK. Normally though I deploy them with GH because with the new rules and the standards they are monsters. I'm still to deply them as midrange footslogers in this edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I can definitely see the point concerning vanilla Wolf Guard terminators being a good buy, but they fill a different role then the assault terminator unit. However, a WGTDA with Claw and Combi-weapon is only 5 points cheaper than claw/fist... and I'd argue that the claw/fist is potentially much more devastating, especially when supported with a storm shield or two. Additionally, Grey Hunters are already great at filling the role that vanilla Wolf Termies would fill. There are ways to support an assault wolf guard terminator unit. A Land Raider is a good starting point. I know a Land Raider is a contentious issue, however they are not "as" vulnerable to melta this edition as they were in 5th. Transports only allow disembark after a 6" move now instead of 12"... combine that with pre-measuring and you should be able to keep melta out of melta range until you reach your target. Drop pod melta? Stick your LR in reserve. Railguns? How about a drop pod Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf? Say goodbye to those Broadsides. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 As promised pic of converted power axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3310916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 ooh i like that, might have to have a go at one of those. love it in the power fist hehe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3311425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 cheers, the sneeky thing about the powerfist, apart from it looking cool, is that I can play him equipped with either a power axe, or a power fist. Although I cant really see there being a need for the fist you enevr kno wwhat 7th edition will do :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3311427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 lol fair enough hehe, well you could use it for a counts as logan as well if you need i suppose Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3311431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yeah, thats a good point, although my Logan is going to be HUGE compared to this guy ! # and then my Ranulf is going to be even bigger than Logan !!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3311432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Why take the power axes over Power Fists? Both are striking last but the Axe only at +1 strength while the fist grants x2 strength. Is it just to save points? If so maybe a mix of power swords and axes would be a bit more versatile, maybe even throw in a maul or two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271636-the-case-for-assault-wg-terminators/#findComment-3311441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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