Chaos Spawn: Broken, or just too good?

[happybounce]

I mean now they don't have to roll difficult terrain every turn, what's the point in running ANYTHING ELSE?

 

Seriously though: I love Chaos Spawn in this codex, but I'm not seeing/hearing a lot from other chaos players.  Is anyone else out there running them with success?  They have become weirdly fundamental with my playstyle in 6th.  I run four of them with no marks as bullet-blockers for my Khorne Juggernaught Lord, and for 120 points they do their job well--that is to say, die horribly every game.  But with purpose!

 

Reasons why spawn are awesome:

 

They are weirdly resistant to flamers, heavy flamers and the baleflamer.  Being toughness 5 and 3 wounds, the opponent will only get a few rolls in, and some bad luck on his part means a wasted round of shooting.

 

Because they are beasts, and beasts are AWESOME, I can almost always get a decent cover save for them.  Sure, my Lord is cavalry and has to take a dangerous terrain test most turns but by Khorne he is a man and will damn well ride his giant metal beast-thing through fences and walls if he wants to.  This means that the high-strength shooting (that would normally negate armor) fired at them is less useful.  Oh, and unlike multi-wound "elite" models like Obliterators, Mutilators or Paladins, str 5 means most things don't insta-kill them.  And speaking of this . . .

 

Shooting at spawn is hilarious and pointless.  Each shot fired at spawn is a shot not fired at my bikes, my raptors, my maulerfiends, my rhinos, or my daemon prince.  And if the squad gets shot down to one or two wounded spawn, well the Lord can jump ship to either the Raptors or the Bikes and do a decent enough job keeping up.  

 

Of course everything in my army is fast as hell, which is ANOTHER reason spawn rock.  In an edition where failing a charge range can be deeply demoralizing, having the backup of that one die re-roll due to fleet is amazeballs (if for no other reason than it lets me feel more confident when playing).  The fleet re-roll helps with run moves too, meaning that I can usually count on a 16-18" move turn 1, with a good shot at assault turn two.  We're talking 28" move range with 8-9" average assault range, turn two.

 

As for combat?  Well, they kind of suck at that most of the time.  Then again, some games three spawn will get there, roll a five for random attacks and drop 21 strength 5 hits . . . before failing to wound and proceeding to flail around uselessly.

 

 

In short, I think Chaos Spawn might be the most under-rated unit in the Chaos Codex, and that's saying a lot.  Someone tell me why I'm wrong!  I'm bored and would rather argue on the internet with a stranger than grade papers.  Or tell me why I'm totally right and also handsome and amazing.  Either works.

[Bonzi]

Spawn are good.  I run mine with Mark of Nurgle and they make a fast and amazing tarpit unit.  The problem isn't that spawn are bad, the problem is that our Fast Attack slots are hotly contested.  Spawn are going up against dirt cheap bikers and heldrakes, both of which provide amazing point value and fill gaps that are needed in CSM armies.  Spawn are amazing utility units but bikes and the heldrake are fantastic on their own.

 

As an aside, if you love Spawn, run them in an army with a lvl 3 sorc and telepathy.  Watch any enemy unit try to kill Invisible spawn via shooting or close combat.  

[the jeske]

 

Seriously though: I love Chaos Spawn in this codex, but I'm not seeing/hearing a lot from other chaos players.

3 things

A. they are in the same slot as drakes , better tar pit or not , a drakes are better .

B. chaos HQs have a huge challange problem . spawns have no asp champions , this means out dudes get tanked longer and that is always bad.our HQs do melee puting them in the tarpit units , when a melee unit

wants to maximize the number of turns it is in melee with different

targets is kind of a waste of points. easier focus fire is just a bonus .

C. chaos lists have two sources of anti av13+ . obltis and bikes . bikes are in the same slot as spawn . [look drake].

[Shuggnuggath]

I find it very difficult to pass up a unit of 5 mark of nurgle spawn in my lists. 

 

Being toughness 6 and stupidly fast makes them really hard to stop. Boltguns need 6s to wound them, so I have never failed to get them into combat. I fairly regularly get 40 attacks on the charge from the squad. They are a great tar-pit unit and also hard to avoid. They are also surprisingly good at trashing small elite units like Hammernators. 

 

Just stay away from combat with dreadnoughts.

[Nehekhare]

they don't do much to vehicles or 2+ armor and Lords better lend their fearless to units that aren't already and have champs to challenge, but otherwise they're very good :)

 

too bad that beasts don't count as having frag grenades, too.

 

try 2 in suicide squad/kill team missions with lots of terrain!

[minigun762]

I like a single squad of 4-5 to support rhino squads. Being able keep upwith the rhinos and screening bolter units seems to work well.

[Sception]

They're nice, but I don't think too good.  And, as Jeske mentioned, they really struggle for room with bikes and drakes in the same slot, at least in single force org games.  Spawn are good, but drakes basically single handedly make the faction overall worth playing.  And while spawn are great tar pits, champions of chaos means that bikes are almost always the better choice of character escort thanks to their unit champ, and the meltaguns or plasma guns that bikes will bring to the table are effective against heavy vehicle or troop armor, two things CSMs can struggle with and that spawn don't do anything for.  While I'd love to field spawn, my fast is almost always taken by two drakes and a bike squad.

 

It doesn't help that the models aren't that great, and cost a fortune.  Of course, that can be said of bikes and drakes, too.  If was choosing my fast choices purely by monetary cost or model quality, I'd be taking raptors over all of them.

[Chaeron]

Wouldn't take them myself for the reasons listed above. Not my style.

[Ammonius]

I agree with The Jeske's assessments.

However, my current 1500 "let's go to the FLGS" list has two units of 5 Nurgle-marked spawn. I love them.

 

I stretch them out on the front edge of my deployment zone to give the units behind them cover. 12"+D6" of movement Turn 1 and 12" Turn 2 usually means that they are in charge range of something by my assault on turn 2.

 

Their rage and potential for a lot of base attacks means that I often am rolling 20+ dice on the charge, and with STR 5, this is plenty to take the hull points off a AV 10 vehicle. This covers Rhinos, Razorbacks, every Dark Eldar vehicle and all but 3 vehicles in the IG codex. This means my local meta is pretty well covered. Also, this assumes that I haven't shot up the aforementioned vehicle and the Spawn are charging anyone that was being transported.

 

If I manage to get them in a fight with an infantry unit on foot, I can count on them keeping the fight going long enough to reinforce them with my Lord+PM's or reposition my guns to shoot at what's left after they get killed.

 

Because I also run a pair of Vindicators with seige shields, the Spawn's movement is a perfect compliment, allowing me to get into my 24" fire lanes without having to pop smoke.

 

Oh, and I love the look on people's faces (usually onlookers, since all my usual opponents know the drill by now) when I say T6, 3 Wounds.

 

Make no mistake, I have a Heldrake or two and a Bike unit on my to-build list, but for now, I am having fun and success with my Chaos Spawn.

[jansuza]

I'm loving my spawn at the moment. I run two units, a nurgle squad, and a plain squad for my juggerlord. Without fail so far, I've been able to advance into cover the first turn, and assault the 2nd, and they're mostly not fired on because people don't think it's useful to shoot at T5/6 3W models in 4+ cover.

 

It does suck that they don't have a sergeant, as the juggerlord quite often gets stuck killing a sergeant with his 13 attacks, but for a 150/180 point squad, you can't have it all! Most of the time, the juggerlord rips whatever he's fighting apart on the second round of combat anyway, and the spawn almost always contribute 3/4 kills against marines. Getting 40 attacks on the charge is amazing.

 

It's a pity that our fast attack slot is so cramped with good stuff, as I would love to field a unit of bikes alongside the spawn, but my heldrake is currently winning out.

[the jeske]

 

It does suck that they don't have a sergeant, as the juggerlord quite often gets stuck killing a sergeant with his 13 attacks, but for a 150/180 point squad, you can't have it all!

vendetta 130pts. GH plasmax2 totem MoTW  185 . pms 2xplasma 130. etc .  so its a  weak argument.

[hornywingythingy]

Isn't there an argument to be made for the lord being in a challenge when you charge being good? It stops you wiping out or breaking the unit so easily, meaning your opponent can't shoot you in his turn? Just a thought.

[breng77]

In a world of Heldrakes and Chaos Daemons I like spawn over bikes, they survive much better.  I agree with the sorcerer comment Nurgle spawn with invisibility/endurance/enfeeble are great, other biomancy powers buff the sorcer into a good challange character.  All said it depends on the rest of your list how good they will be.

[Lieutenant Steel]

@ Hornywingythingy: That's exactly what I've always thought of the challenge rule. Since the Lord is Fearless it doesn't even matter if his bodyguard unit gets beaten, as he's going to mop up on the enemies' turn and be free to charge again in yours.

[the jeske]

In a world of Heldrakes and Chaos Daemons I like spawn over bikes, they survive much better.  I agree with the sorcerer comment Nurgle spawn with invisibility/endurance/enfeeble are great, other biomancy powers buff the sorcer into a good challange character.  All said it depends on the rest of your list how good they will be.

and invisible bikes are bad right ?

 

 

Isn't there an argument to be made for the lord being in a challenge

when you charge being good? It stops you wiping out or breaking the unit

so easily, meaning your opponent can't shoot you in his turn? Just a

thought.

there is a small problem with this. most of the time your be going agains a protected squad because assault is telegraphed by deployment 2 turns before it actualy happens . this can mean two things . your lord wining against a sgt but the unit being butchered or your lord being stuck on a tank HQ for more then 1 phase [and then on a sgt , which means your 2-3 turns on a single squad] . . all of this happens , if you actualy do charge , unlike shoting you can never be sure of that.

[hornywingythingy]

@ jeske, that's true. Tbh I hadn't run spawn anyhow, since I currently only have two, which I keep on hand for bad rolls on the table of doom.

[Slayer le Boucher]

While Spawns are really more interessting then in previous codexes, and are good and rapide tarpit units if you are in a 1000-1200pts rich environement, bikes are better in a few ways in list of 1500 and above.

 

Bikes While a bit pts costly, are still really cheap compared to any other bikes unit of the game( maybe not DA RW ), they are has fast, and even faster, with their turboboost, they can carry meltas and plasmas, a Champ with low Ap CC weapons and that can be tailored for Duels, leaving your Lord slay the rest of the unit, can carry an Icon, giving assault distance reroll and FC to the Lord, more chances to get into CC, and they have cover saves and 3+ saves.

 

So yeah While Spawns are better then other editions, they still are a bit subpar with bikes, but they are still a good AR choice and have their uses

[the jeske]

@ jeske, that's true. Tbh I hadn't run spawn anyhow, since I currently only have two, which I keep on hand for bad rolls on the table of doom.

and am not saying you shouldnt . I am not claiming that the spawns got worse[they didnt] or that they are bad[we have other units to fill that role in our dex] . But I am very sensitive to the word good. Good is something you can put in your list and it doesnt make it worse or it is bad , but you can cover for it[iG dudes suck at melee ,but they have a whole codex of options to deal with that problem +anything they can battlebrother]. Spawns dont do that . not using drakes is huge for chaos , challange problems made bigger are huge for chaos and we dont have an affordable way to deal with it .

like technicly I could be runing a khorn lord some spawn and a sorc to have 2 challangers in a spawn unit , but it costs too much .

this is what makes spawn not good . Calling them too good is like saying ecto fiends are the bombs and greate because they kill multi wound t4 models .

[happybounce]

Sorry everyone, you're all wrong, Spawn are the best!  Unless you said that already, in which case you are right and you also rock.

 

@ Hornywingythingy: there IS an argument to be said for the Lord being locked in for a round, and that argument is this kicks ass and is totally sweet (almost) all the time.  I almost never want to trade with the Lord, so having him charge something, kill a champ, and be "stuck" an extra round in combat is great to avoid shooting.  Especially if, say, I dunno EVERYONE is talking about how great the Helldrake is and how it's the only reason to play Chaos, etc.  Yes, sometimes he's stuck an extra round, and every once in a while the spawn get lucky and win combat--HA just kidding basically never--but you know what's way worse than this?  Breaking a squad on MY turn, having them run, And They Shall Know No Fear goes off, they turn around and shoot the hell out of me and maybe charge back.  Being locked in is almost always a good thing.  Also, Khorne.  Why the hell would anyone want to AVOID challenges with their Khorne lord?  40k isn't just about math and percentages, even at the most competitive level.  

 

@Jeske: as for having assaults "telegraphed" by turn two, if I'm going first the assault is already happening turn two most of the time.  And guess what happens turn one if I go first?  Those sweet bikes everyone (including me) loves turbo boost away from the guys they are across, the Daemon Prince swoops away, and a big chunk of my army suddenly isn't where it's supposed to be.  With most of my army I have a pretty reliable 20-inch move/charge range.  What's telegraphed about that?  One of the best tricks in a super fast aggressive army is changing it up at the last minute and, say, blitzing away from a unit someone wanted you to charge and shooting them with the Chaos Marines instead, while zooming past them and getting to the meat of the army lines.  Unless your method of 40k is to just line up and move dudes across the table at other dudes without any use of tactics?

 

I agree that our Fast Attack are particularly good.  And sure, on a point for point, "how much stuff can they kill" basis the Helldrake will do more damage than many things, even the Mighty Chaos Spawn.  But the big strength of my army is that everything starts out on the board, is fast as hell, and forces the opponent to make tough shooting choices.  Should he shoot at the bikes, or the Spawn?  Well the bikes, duh, unless say there is a Khorne Lord attached to the Spawn!  Flyers are splashy and the Helldrake is super deadly sometimes and WAY too cheap, but far from "the only reason to run chaos".  My fast attacks?  Ten Raptors decked out, Eight Bikes decked out . . . and FOUR SPAWN.  The Helldrake would be a terrible fit in my list, especially considering that by the time he shows up often I'm already in combat.  There's no such thing as inherently good/bad in 40k, it's all conditional.

 

Except for Spawn, who are the best ever all the time, the end.

[Sception]

Every opponent I play against has characters that will murder my lord in close combat.  I never want to be in a challenge with him, because chaos lords are sub-par duelists.  So no, spawn escort doesn't work for me.

 

Spawn are great tying things up and being a hurge, fast bother, sure.  But I need drakes to not feel like deploying as CSMs was a waste in and of itself, and I need bikes to escort my lord and actually threaten the junk the rest of my army has trouble with, which spawn can't hurt at all.

 

It's not that spawn are bad.  I just don't need them the way I need bikes or drakes.

[happybounce]

Fair enough.  I guess I just don't see Helldrakes as a compelling enough reason by themselves to take Chaos Marines--unlike Spawn, which are 90% of the reason I play this army (kidding).  How is playing Chaos still fun if only one unit makes you feel like it's worth your time?

 

And each of our metas are going to be different so if Lords don't work for you that's your thing, but Lords as sub-par duellists? I guess it's how you deck him out but mine does just fine the vast majority of games.  And because he's fast enough (with the spawn escort and the rest of my army) in the rare event he comes across something that will take him out--basically someone who hits before initative 5 and insta-kills on toughness 5 with more than two attacks--I just throw my winged Daemon Prince at them, or rapid fire at close range, tie them up with Maulerfiends, swamp them with multiple assaults, etc.  Lords aren't inherently good OR bad at duels, they are basically standard fighty HQ choices with a lot of sweet options.

 

I really think that with the Chaos codex, even more so than with normal 40k armies, what's "good" or "bad" is totally relative.  My Juggernaught/Axe Lord has enough of a reputation now in our meta that he draws a lot of shooting, and when the Spawn inevitably go down, well he can always jump in with the Bikes or Raptors!

 

Of course, the best of all possible worlds is when the Lord kills a Long Fang Sergeant and turns INTO a spawn.  On Friday.  Talk about broken, my opponent almost quit right then and there.

[totgeboren]

I face Eldar, DE and GK most of the time. Spawn are not so hot vs them (especially DE and GK. Poison and ID galore!)

 

But they are pretty cool. :)

[the jeske]

I really think that with the Chaos codex, even more so than with normal 40k armies, what's "good" or "bad" is totally relative.

realy? you can call oblits or bale drakes bad and lets say talons good?

 

 

 

 

as for having assaults "telegraphed" by turn two, if I'm going first

the assault is already happening turn two most of the time.

aha so after the deployment your opponent not only puts his army within a [random] 2 turn charge , but also doesnt move or moves closer on his own turn . he also doesnt have/move any support/tarpit/counter units because he isnt runing those . ok so unless this is some kind a necron storm lord build , how offten will that happen.

 

 

What's telegraphed about that?

 

you mean aside for the how the board looks and where the objectives are and how we deployed ?

 

 

 

One of the best tricks in a super fast aggressive army is changing it up

at the last minute and, say, blitzing away from a unit someone wanted

you to charge and shooting them with the Chaos Marines instead, while

zooming past them and getting to the meat of the army lines.  Unless

your method of 40k is to just line up and move dudes across the table at

other dudes without any use of tactics?

 

nice ad personam arguement . but tell me in a game of w40k where you do nothing in your opponent turn , how do you charge and jump out of reaction range of your opponent in the same turn ? and that "shot them with csm" argument. how many squads are those , because to wipe out something that maybe a treate to a lord+spawn+DP[taking your example] that counter force must be huge ?

And could you explain how against an agresive army you charge it late[how , if its agresive it is trying to wipe as much stuff from turn 1] , while having an untouched army . Are we playing on an Inifity table ?

 

 

 

 

And each of our metas are going to be different so if Lords don't work

for you that's your thing, but Lords as sub-par duellists? I guess it's

how you deck him out but mine does just fine the vast majority of games.

 And because he's fast enough (with the spawn escort and the rest of my

army) in the rare event he comes across something that will take him

out--basically someone who hits before initative 5 and insta-kills on

toughness 5 with more than two attacks--I just throw my winged Daemon

Prince at them, or rapid fire at close range, tie them up with

Maulerfiends, swamp them with multiple assaults, etc.  Lords aren't

inherently good OR bad at duels, they are basically standard fighty HQ

choices with a lot of sweet options

 

 

If your fiting a lord and DP and bikes in to an army then this is 2k or more points being played . at 2k points or more then spawn stop working at all and a single flying MC gets grounded ad infinitum .

 

 

How is playing Chaos still fun if only one unit makes you feel like it's worth your time?

am not sure if you noticed but years ago we had a codex called the gav dex , since around then a large part of chaos comunity is unhappy with the way chaos works , that is of course in general . because 1ksons for example always had 1 unit for each slot and suck since 2ed [no idea about RT , havent played back then dont know if they even existed] .

[Kastellan Kong]

Such a cheerful tone.

 

Spawns are cool. :D

[Hellios]

I think spawn have improved compared to the last edition of the codex. I even used spawn there, but only from Boon of Chaos... As I play a 1kson list it doesn't really matter what I take. It isn't going to be that competative. Alas gone are the times when I could make a legion of spawn in the middle of the game.

 

Are spawn bad? I wouldn't say that. Are they good? I don't know! Are they best use of 40pts in the chaos codex and do they provide chaos with what it needs? Almost certainly not. Give spawn a constant save of 4/3+ and +1T (which you can do with a MoN) and I definitly think I would take them more often.