Misconceptions About CSM

[Vesper]

 

However I can name one group of Black Legionnaires who do not follow Abaddon. The group from Honour Among Fiends.

There are also the Black Brethren of Eyreas from Forgeworld's Siege of

Vraks. Of course, since the death of their leader, they have since been

amalgamated into Zhufor's Skulltakers.

It's not because it's not clearly stated that they're obeying Abaddon's orders that they aren't. Think of it that way. Abaddon creates the Black Legion. Why would someone join the BL if it's not to join Abaddon's cause and to fight for him ? There are other lords and warbands, why that legion ? The BL has one leader that everyone recognize as such (it's mandatory if you want to join the BL). Can a lord and his warband go rogue and leave Abaddon's legion ? Sure, but they're no longer part of the Black Legion. Abaddon is at the core  of the concept of this legion. He created it and he leads it entirely as he commands to the lords of the Black Legion. You can't think about the BL as a pre-heresy legion made by the emperor and led by a primarch, because it's far from it.

[Kol Saresk]

Which group? The ones from Honour Among Fiends are following the visions of their leader as he his forced to fulfill the vow to the Gods he made on Terra. They call themselves "the Black Legion" but are not a part of it. It even says that either they are hunting or waiting to hunt. If it's the Black brethren, can't say I know too much about them other than they are a warband whose origins are in the Black Legion, but are not apart of the structure itself. And if my previous posts are not good enough of an indication, I have said on more than one occasion that the Black Legion is not what it used to be. it is not the XVI Legion. As such, technically it is not a "Legion" other. But they are still consider a Legion. however, by the very conditions that they meet to be considered a Legion in terms of numbers, organization and command structure, even the Red Corsairs could be considered a "Legion." Except for one unspoken rule: It must be descended from an actual Legion. Or at least, that is what I infer since the Black Legion is apparently not recognized as the XVI Legion but no one has ever suggested the Red Corsairs be Legion.

 

EDIT: Are any of the modern "Legions" led by a Primarch? Let me rephrase because I know someone will pop off Alpha Legion. Are any confirmed to be led by a Primarch? And to clarify, not a Primarch who lives and sits in seclusion who's last action was when he was banished from the warp, but a Primarch who is actively confirmed as leading and directing his forces.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Kol_Saresk

[Pariah Mk.231]

 

 

The Iron Warriors. One source, specifically a Battle Novel, mentions "the Lords of Medrengard." I'd like to point out that the Iron Warriors who weren't trying to fight each other in that novel had no problem talking about fighting other Grand Companies. There might be a command structure, but the organization itself does not appear to be coherent due to the constant threat of internal fighting.

 

 

 

 

There are also sources that point to Iron Warriors being mostly intact. Adding the above information to those sources might imply the structure of their Legion is something similar to Dark Elf society from Fantasy, with each Grand Company funtioning in a similar fashion to each of the cities in Naggaroth. The Warsmith of each Grand Company is like a noble ruling a city, fighting other cities for power, resources and Malekith's favour (or Perturabo's in this case), with each city having it's own "customs". They're all basically just looking for the advantage over their rivals. While there are dividing lines running through the legion, it still has a largely united identity. They are still the sons of Perturabo, and no matter how much they fight each other or for whatever reasons, they would all still answer their father when he calls.

[Kol Saresk]

Out of curiosity, may you point me to these sources? I am not criticizing, it is just that I am a fluff junky and as I said, my interpretation is based on the fluff I have seen adn read. For example, I know under the "Organization" Structure of the Iron Warriors IA article, it does suggest that the original Twelve Grand Companies and many of the smaller Grand Company garrisons that survived the Heresy do for the most part retain their internal structures. However, it also makes the point to specify the Grand Companies, not the Legion. It would suggest that Warbands of Iron Warriors tend to be very organized, but there is no over reaching command structure. That is just the IA article though, and the IA articles are far from being the only sources on Chaos Marines and the "Legions." There are older sources, there are newer sources and as time goes on, there will be even more.

 

But like I said, I wouldn't mind reading these sources, if you could just point me to them.

[Vesper]

 

Which group? The ones from Honour Among Fiends are following

the visions of their leader as he his forced to fulfill the vow to the

Gods he made on Terra. They call themselves "the Black Legion" but are

not a part of it. It even says that either they are hunting or waiting

to hunt.

The purpose of the BL in Honour Among Friends doesn't mean they don't follow Abaddon's orders/will. IIRC.

On the primarch thingy, I wasn't clear enough. I wanted to say that the pre-heresy legions were all led by a primarch at least at some point in their history. Which isn't the case for the BL as the black legionnaires come from various origins that aren't bound by their blood, but by their goal.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Out of curiosity, may you point me to these sources? I am not criticizing, it is just that I am a fluff junky and as I said, my interpretation is based on the fluff I have seen adn read. For example, I know under the "Organization" Structure of the Iron Warriors IA article, it does suggest that the original Twelve Grand Companies and many of the smaller Grand Company garrisons that survived the Heresy do for the most part retain their internal structures. However, it also makes the point to specify the Grand Companies, not the Legion. It would suggest that Warbands of Iron Warriors tend to be very organized, but there is no over reaching command structure. That is just the IA article though, and the IA articles are far from being the only sources on Chaos Marines and the "Legions." There are older sources, there are newer sources and as time goes on, there will be even more.

 

But like I said, I wouldn't mind reading these sources, if you could just point me to them.

 

 

I don't need to, you've just elaborated what I meant by "mostly intact", and it looks like you've already read what I've read, meaning a lengthy session of fluff scouring wouldn't turn up anything new. I wasn't implying they still had legion wide command structure like the old days, simply that they all tend to call the same Daemon world home, think of themselves as Iron Warriors and owe loyalty to their Primarch above all others. Compared to most of the other legions, I'd say that makes them "mostly intact".

The rest of the post after that was simply an observation of what the dynamic between Grand Comapanies might be like, speculation pretty much.

[daveNYC]

The only Primarchs that I know that have done anything in post-Heresy fluff are Angron, Fulgrim, and Magnus.  Mortarion just shows up to be Worfed in the GK codex, so I'm not counting that.  I wouldn't list any of them as having a tight reign over what remains of their legions.  Of the three, Magnus is the only one who might be able to actually lead his guys on some mission.  If Fulgrim or Angron rolled out, they'd be able to bring a lot of WE or EC with them, but I think that'd be more due to the nature of those cults than any loyalty to their Primarch.

 

The 'legions no longer exist' argument always gets my goat.  It states that all legions have fractured into warbands, while totally ignoring the fact that at least two of the legions (Iron Warriors and Word Bearers) have only splintered into smaller groups that still call themselves by their original legion name, and that their warband size is equal or larger than an entire loyalist chapter.  The Iron Warriors have broken down into Grand Company sized uints that still call themselves Iron Warriors and are big fans of siegeworks and fortifications, but no legion rules for you.

[Vesper]

Our codex shows that Mortarion and Perturabo also did something post-heresy.

[Artein]

Every Daemonic Primarch did something post-heresy. It's just those events when they're leading their sons are rarer and rarer. They're more concerned with the Great Game of their gods than with the war against the Imperium.

[Kol Saresk]

@Vesper: Actually considering the fact that Scaevolla is constantly being driven to hunt down the targets of his oath, even to the point that he does not ally himself or his squad alongside other Chaos forces and is willing to attack them, until his objective has been achieved. Meaning that even if Abaddon was standing between him and his oath-target, then he would strike down even the Despoiler. Also, I did ask if the Primarchs were actively leading their "Legions."

 

@Pariah Mk.231: My apologies, I was asking and commenting on the structure of the Legion in general, not the Grand Companies that make it up.

 

@daveNYC: Speaking of Grand Companies, according to the IA article, the Iron Warriors were organized into 12 Grand Companies. But every single Iron Warriors garrison was also consider a Grand Company and ranged in size from ten Astartes to many more. And the Word Bearers Host are in a similar situation. Although with all the talk of "absorbing smaller hosts" in relation to their fluff, I'd imagine they have a minimum size limit. And the Night Lords are also split into warbands of varying sizes from a couple dozen to large enough to threaten a Craftworld to the point the Craftworld doesn't even think it would win the battle. And they also wear their original Legion name. Would you say that Legion still exists as a Legion?

 

Ultimately that is the point of the argument. It is not "there are no surviving Legionnaires" or even "the Legions are no longer purely made up of "pure" Legionnaires." No, the argument is that the Legions are dead because none of them are what they were when the Heresy ended. The Black Legion is not the XVI Legion, even though it is led by the former First Captain. It is a brand new entity that is for the most part, bound by a singular will. Out of them all, this is the closest being a "Legion." The Night Lords are broken and scattered across the stars along with the World Eaters and Emperor's Children. The Thousand Sons and Death Guard have simply gone their own ways. The Iron Warriors live next to each other and hate each other as much as they hate the Imperium. The Word Bearers are a Legion of egomaniacs who only bow down to those who are stronger than they, otherwise the Council of Sicarus would be dead and a "Grand Apostle" would lead the Legion. And the Alpha Legion, well who can say? They might be Legion, or they might be even more fractured than the World Eaters.

 

That is the argument. It is not that the names of the Legions shouldn't be used or even that there are no survivors, it is that they are no longer Legion. They do not act coherently. The Black Legion is the only one that comes close and even it cannot keep all customers satisfied, as demonstrated by Scaevolla and his merry band of killers.

[Wade Garrett]

@Kol_Saresk. I think it's a question of scale. With the exception of Perfection by Nick Kyme, which I have not read, I can't think of a single BL book which features a mix of God followers, or even a mix of legionnaires.

 

Blood Reaver.

10th Company alone has the Khornate Uzuas, the Tzeenchtian Exalted, and the Slaaneshi Cyrion.

[totgeboren]

 

@Kol_Saresk. I think it's a question of scale. With the exception of Perfection by Nick Kyme, which I have not read, I can't think of a single BL book which features a mix of God followers, or even a mix of legionnaires.

 

Blood Reaver.

10th Company alone has the Khornate Uzuas, the Tzeenchtian Exalted, and the Slaaneshi Cyrion.

I have read that book (a great read!), and you are right in that the different gods show their influence within the group. However, with the exception of the Exalted (who is definitely Tzeentch), I don't think the others could be considered "marked". They are much closer to group of undivided marines, with some leaning towards one god, and some to others, and some not leaning to any of them.

 

But their warband is definitely not a mix of different legion legionnaires, which was what I was really getting at (,as the rules don't allow mark-mixing anymore anyway). The point is that their ship does not have the 'Death Guard barracks' and the 'Emperors Children quarters' and a 'Word Bearers chapel'. It's about Night Lords, and I at least think that theme is pretty cool in its simplicity. Lots of legions in one warband isn't my cup of tea.

Edited February 22, 2013 by totgeboren

[Pariah Mk.231]

No need for apologies Kol, if I'd elaborated a bit in my first post we wouldn't have had the mix up.

[Nehekhare]

@The Iron Warriors live next to each other and hate each other as much as they hate the Imperium. they are no longer Legion. [...] They do not act coherently. The Black Legion is the only one that comes close

Whether they act coherently and/or as a Legion depends on what the Primarch does. When Peturabo or Angron call to war, their Legion follows (see Dominion of Fire, 1st War for Armageddon, Perturabo's Plague, etc.). In the meantime, they may be lost to infighting or rally to the banner of someone like Abaddon.

 

IW organization is actually pretty tight. In siege of Castellax, 64 Iron warriors constitue a grand company that oversees a planet bound to provide minerals, ore and weapons for Medrengard, by order of Perturabo. This is Legion structure at work, 10,000 years after the heresy.

In the master's bidding (treacheries of the space marines), a veteran IW has carved out a bastion in a backwater system with just a few troops and is shocked and surprised when he learns that the Legions (NL, WB, EC and TS at least) nowadays contain individuals that never took part in the war against terra and have given up on the long war, fighting only for personal gain and against each other (like that bastard Honsou btw). In the same book, another Warsmith just relives past battles when he captures a planet to lure the Imperial Fists into the fight, "in the name of Perturabo".

 

This is more or less the same organization than during the heresy, when the IV Legion was split up between myriads of fortress worlds, with only the triad and the stor bezashk accompaining Perturabo himself. With Horus and Curze dead, Angron banished and the rest not much interacting with the outside world, I'd say of all Legions, the Iron Warriors have conserved the most of their pre-heresy internal structure.    

[Vesper]

 

@Vesper: Actually considering the fact that Scaevolla is constantly

being driven to hunt down the targets of his oath, even to the point

that he does not ally himself or his squad alongside other Chaos forces

and is willing to attack them, until his objective has been achieved.

Meaning that even if Abaddon was standing between him and his

oath-target, then he would strike down even the Despoiler

Consider it that way. Abaddon is backed up by the Chaos gods, right ? I guess those like their toys. Allowing Scaevolla to pursue his "curse" (by letting him to take the black) may in fact be benefical to Abaddon.

Hard to tell, in fact, as the novel is so focused on the main character that the context is pretty much eluded.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Vesper

[Kol Saresk]

If the organization was tight then there would be no infighting at all, much like in the Heresy before Angel Exterminatus was written.

 

But becoming organized whenever a Primarch decides to show his face, is not the same as being organized. That would mean that if Perturabo never shows his face again, then the Iron Warriors will forever be lost to infighting and being proxies for the Black Legion.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure you want to use Treacheries of the Space Marines as both Iron Warriors were insane. The first hadn't had contact with his own Legion in forever. He fortified that world and then spent the rest of his life trying to feel important by auctioning off some waystones and then looking for more when he lost those.

 

As for Ferrous Ironclaw, he kept having flashbacks to the Tallarn Campaign until he thought he was reliving the battle. Using his view point to say the Iron Warriors are a Legion is sort of like using Zso Sahaal's viewpoint that the Night Haunter was this beautiful, noble creature who was haunted by a father's betrayal.

 

Also, the Storbezhak wasn't the only Grand Company following Perturabo around. There were three others: Kroeger's, Forrix's and the Warsmith's.

 

EDIT:

 

@Vesper: That is some abstract thinking you have there.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Kol_Saresk

[the jeske]

 

If the organization was tight then there would be no infighting at all, much like in the Heresy before Angel Exterminatus was written.

sorry , but do you know how military, police , customs , different divisions or burocrates in any country work ?

[Kol Saresk]

Yes. There are divisions. That's a no brainer. But there's no fighting between precints. Or are there cop-on-cop wars going on in the shadows of black alleys that I am not aware of?

 

Divisions are expected. When I say fighting, I mean it in the most literal sense. Bang bang boom. Bolter fire, chainswords and the such.

[the jeske]

 

But there's no fighting between precints.

yeah of course , because if one let say stops a transport of cigarets and gets paid for it and doesnt share with the one down the road , nothing is going to happen .

 

Or the stuff that happens when customs officers that work within country , happen to run in to guys from the local road militia.

 

Or when customs or militia are trying to stop what military transports are actualy bringing from the south .

 

Or when burrocrats from one region get paid by BP or other company for being able to mine something in the region and they dont share it with dudes from central .

 

Or when one dude gives the permission to buy a house/market/road/X and doesnt share it with his boss or others working in the same department .

 

etc etc etc. and its not even touching the guys you actualy hate[you just dislike people from other divisions] like internals or spec envoys [which never share].

[Kol Saresk]

Jeske, please read my post again. Specifically the part on how I was using the word "fighting." Please, for once actually read my entire post. And then comment.

[Nehekhare]

Sorry Kol, but infighting is very much part of Legion structure. If not from Angel exterminatus, where Toramino deliberately friendly fires on forrix or Berossus trains his Dreadnought weapons on live Legionnaires, or from WE gladatorial fights sanguis extremis, you could glance that from the Clan Structure of even the loyalist Iron Hand Legion and chapter (specifically formed to encourage competition, up to the point of actual inter-clan warfare).

And Insanity is no argument here. Ferrous may have suffered from lucid episodes, but that does not change the fact that his command structure was the same as during the battle of tallarn, or it wouldn't have triggered so many memories in the first place. every space marine, and even more so every chaos marine, is beyond insane by mortal standarts.

Chengrel wasn't even psychotically insane, He did what all IW did during the whole crusade and after the heresy, up to Olympia itself, what even the traitor (loyalist) Dantioch did in iron within: fortify, resist and await further orders.

Fortifying Bastions and aspiring to higher stations through any means necessary isn't loss of structure - this is what we do!

btw kroeger, forrix and falk are called the "triad" which I mentioned, IW equivalent of the mournival. Toramino, 10,000 years after angel exterminatus, still fights against Falk's predecessor Honsou, so you see how much has changed...

Legion structure is mostly intact for the IW. It is not (and never was) adherent to the codex astartes, though ;)

Edited February 22, 2013 by Nehekhare

[Lay]

The 'legions no longer exist' argument always gets my goat.

I've only heard this claim after it was announced that the 4th edition Codex would ditch legion rules and people began to argue how this was justified from a fluff perspective.

That is the argument. It is not that the names of the Legions shouldn't be used or even that there are no survivors, it is that they are no longer Legion. They do not act coherently.

Well, codices and other source books constantly refer to the Traitor Legions as forces that exist in the 41st millennium. So, somehow the Legions can exist even without their Heresy-era organization.

[Kol Saresk]

Nehekhare, on 22 Feb 2013 - 09:15, said:

Sorry Kol, but infighting is very much part of Legion structure. If not from Angel exterminatus, where Toramino deliberately friendly fires on forrix or Berossus trains his Dreadnought weapons on live Legionnaires, or from WE gladatorial fights, you could see that in the Clan Structure of the loyalist Iron Hand Legion and chapter.

I was unaware that the Iron Hand Clans actively tried to kill each other.

Quote

And Insanity is no argument here. Ferrous may have suffered from lucid episodes, but that does not change the fact that his command structure was the same as during the battle of tallarn, or it wouldn't have triggered so many memories in the first place. every space marine, and even more so every chaos marine, is beyond insane by mortal standarts.p

I'm not saying that his insanity compromises the structure of his Grand Company. Since the IA article states that the Grand Companies' structure is intact, I believe to be intact. However, his view point cannot be used to justify if the Legion command structure(as in those who command the Warsmiths) still exists. There might be Lords of Medrengard, but if Angel Exterminatus is anything to go by, only the Primarch commands. Without him, the "Lords of Medgrengard" are no different that the Council of Sicarus.

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btw kroeger, forrix and falk are called the "triad" which I mentioned, IW equivalent of the mournival.

I am aware of that. i misunderstood and thought you mereky meant the Triad was there and not their Grand Companies.

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Legion structure is mostly intact for the IW. It is not (and never was) adherent to the codex astartes, though

Again, not exactly. There is a source for an existence of the Lords of Medrengard, although how much control they exert over the Legion and whether or not they actually lead the Legion because Perturabo wills it, is unknown. All we see are viewpoints from the Iron Warriors of Castellax.

 

There is also a source that the structure of the Grand Companies is intact. That is not in dispute. The command of the Legion is.

[daveNYC]

Yes. There are divisions. That's a no brainer. But there's no fighting between precints. Or are there cop-on-cop wars going on in the shadows of black alleys that I am not aware of?

 

Divisions are expected. When I say fighting, I mean it in the most literal sense. Bang bang boom. Bolter fire, chainswords and the such.

 

I dunno, I'm detecting some moving goalposts.  This argument has gone from 'legions don't exist' to 'the pre-heresy command structure of the legions doesn't exist', and really, what legions are about for most people are the combat tactics, style of warfare, motivation, and personality of each legion.  When people say that the IW exist as a legion, they mean that there is a big group of guys who are paranoid siege freaks who hate the Imperium but don't have any great love of Chaos.  Same as when they say that the WB are a bunch of marines who are totally into the religious aspects of Chaos and are looking to spread the 'good word' to the entire galaxy.  The fact that the IW on Medrengard spend half their time shooting at each other or that Erebus and Kor Phaeron are actively trying to backstab each other doesn't enter into it.

[Brother Ambroz]

Where exactly are the Legions still referred to as operational in the current timeline? Besides the 3.5 codex, I can't really think of anywhere. Apart from the three legions already mentioned, who may operate (or be able to operate) much in the same way as the legions did.