Misconceptions About CSM

[Kol Saresk]

Where exactly are the Legions still referred to as operational in the current timeline? Besides the 3.5 codex, I can't really think of anywhere. Apart from the three legions already mentioned, who may operate (or be able to operate) much in the same way as the legions did.

Nowhere that I am aware of.

[Nehekhare]

There is also a source that the structure of the Grand Companies is intact. That is not in dispute. The command of the Legion is.

Then there is no argument. Perturabo is on Medrengard, very much alive and kicking, last mentioned in action outside of the eye for Perturabo's Plague.

...and that is more than any loyalist "Legion" can say about their Primarch command! ;)

 

As for the Iron Hands, See IA, organization: "the Iron Hands Chapter is made up solely of its ten Clan Companies.These generally act as completely separate entities in their own right, and it is not unknown for minor skirmishes to break out between Clan Companies. This is encouraged, so as to keep the Space Marines strong and vigilant."

[Lay]

 

 

Where exactly are the Legions still referred to as operational in the current timeline? Besides the 3.5 codex, I can't really think of anywhere. Apart from the three legions already mentioned, who may operate (or be able to operate) much in the same way as the legions did.

Nowhere that I am aware of.

 

 

Just a few random examples since listing every single passing mentioning in the Codices (not to mention the IA articles, FW volumes and FFG RPGs) would take forever:

 

2nd Codex, p.11:

"Worst of all, the Traitor Legions still lurk in the Eye of Terror, [...]

p.12 (From a section of the Codex called "Traitor Legions"):

"Although each of the Traitor Legions has its own unique character and method of fighting they are all united in their hatred of the Imperium [...]

p.19:

Within the Eye the Traitor Legions fight constant wars amongst themselves for gene-seed, slaves, resources or martial honour.

[...]

The Legions also capture drifting space hulks and refit them to use as large battle barges carrying thousands of troops."

 

4th, p.4 and 6th, p.5:

"For ten thousand years, Traitor Legions and Renegade Chapters have ransacked and razed the worlds of the Emperor"

 

6th, p.12:

"The Traitor Legions have remained the sworn enemies of mankind since the time of the Heresy."

[Brother Ambroz]

None of those mention the Legions fighting as Legions. Seems like they're more describing the current state of legions than anything else.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Tanith Ghost

[Lay]

And the currents state of the legions is: alive.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes, they still have living members but they're not functioning under legion command (except the three arguable legions mentioned earlier).

[Lay]

Nobody has claimed that the internal structure of the Legions didn't change after the Heresy. This is about the misconception that they no longer exist simply because they no longer resemble their Heresy-era incarnations.

Besides there is more to them then just Heresy survivors, such as each legion's own "unique character and method of warfare". So even if every single Veteran were killed and replaced by newer recruits, the Legions would still continue to exist.

[Brother Ambroz]

Depends which you're referring to and what exactly your definition of the word Legion is then. The World Eaters are gone fractured after Skalathrax. The Emperor's Children as well. The Thousand Sons and Death Guard are in the same boat. Night Lords.....we all know are pretty   up. The Alpha Legion who knows really.

 

That leaves the last three. I'm sure that even in these three that The Word Bearers might respond if the council of Sicarius ever stops killing one another and does something, or Lorgar stops praying/meditating. The Iron Warriors would likely obey their Primarch but I don't see them doing anything unless the order comes from him, they're too busy fighting one another. That leaves the Black Legion which Abbadon controls with an iron fist.

[totgeboren]

Depends which you're referring to and what exactly your definition of the word Legion is then. The World Eaters are gone fractured after Skalathrax. The Emperor's Children as well. The Thousand Sons and Death Guard are in the same boat. Night Lords.....we all know are pretty   up. The Alpha Legion who knows really.

 

That leaves the last three. I'm sure that even in these three that The Word Bearers might respond if the council of Sicarius ever stops killing one another and does something, or Lorgar stops praying/meditating. The Iron Warriors would likely obey their Primarch but I don't see them doing anything unless the order comes from him, they're too busy fighting one another. That leaves the Black Legion which Abbadon controls with an iron fist.

 

If Lorgar came out from his seclusion, every single WB alive would probably stand to attention. And if the Dark X series is anything to go by, the scheming and infighting of the Council is not something most WB are even aware of, considering how Marduk reacts upon realising the 'complex' relationship between Erebus and Kor Phaeron. It's almost like the WB have an Inner Circle where the divisions become apparent, but to the vast majority of the legion they are probably as united as ever.

 

I agree on the IW, and the BL are as you say a legion united under Horus. If the largest legion acts like a Legion, and the fractured ones put together don't even outnumber the second largest (the WB), and the largest group of Renegades number about the same as these big ones and act like a Legion, it feels a bit silly to say that Chaos Marines are defined more by the fractured warbands than the united legions.

 

The fractured warbands seem to be the exception rather than the rule, at least if we go by numbers. Sort of analogue with SM being of UM stock. Of course everyone wants to be a special snowflake, but background-wise, most loyalist marines are of UM decent. (At least two thirds of all loyalist marines if I remember correctly.)

[Lay]

Depends which you're referring to and what exactly your definition of the word Legion is then. The World Eaters are gone fractured after Skalathrax.

I'm referring to all of them and that's the point. Even a Legion as fractured as the World Eaters is still referred to as a "Legion" in the fluff.

[Nehekhare]

It's the Loyalists that are fractured (as per Guilliman's decree), we still got our Primarchs (mostly)...

[Brother Ambroz]

@Tot - It's doubtful Lorgar ever would come out though in the fluff. Your second paragraph has too many analogies for me there to get what you're saying.

 

@Lay - They're referred to when describing a warband's marine stock, not as soldiers that fight together under a singular command or council of commanders.

[Kol Saresk]

@Tot: Also according to the Dark X series, while the Word Bearers are not aware of the internal factions within the council, they are aware of factions within and in between the Hosts.

[Lay]

They're referred to when describing a warband's marine stock, not as soldiers that fight together under a singular command or council of commanders.

I guess at this point the less unified Chaos Legions have more in common with Ork Clanz rather than loyalist Chapters.

[Brother Ambroz]

Haha well that's one way to put it.

[the jeske]

It's the Loyalists that are fractured (as per Guilliman's decree), we still got our Primarchs (mostly)...

realy ? you mean with the spirtual liege thing and every non SW marine wanting to be an ultramarine ?

 

 

besides the real fun thing is not , if the legions are one or not [well those who didnt splinter post legion war] , but the fact that Huron has a united forced of 200k man under him and a force smaller only then abadon , gathered in less then a 300years, with a smaller force abadon had at the start of the legion war[destoyed as BL may have been , it wasnt 300man strong]  . which would make him better then abadon and horus combined . Now that is funny stuff to read about and ponder .

[Kol Saresk]

Huron also went straight into the Maelstrom and immediately started conquering pirate base after pirate base while Abaddon was gettin his butt handed to him because all of the Traitor Marines in the Eye decided it was "Pick on the SoH Day."

[Nehekhare]

oh yeah, forgot about the spiritual liege! astral claws were an UM successor, right?

[Kol Saresk]

oh yeah, forgot about the spiritual liege! astral claws were an UM successor, right?

Never specified.

[Nehekhare]

It is apparent from how Abaddon yearns to be as accomplished a Leader as Huron is!

[Urauloth]

oh yeah, forgot about the spiritual liege! astral claws were an UM successor, right?

 

My god. That would explain so much.

Edited February 23, 2013 by A Kvlt Ghost

[Kol Saresk]

It is apparent from how Abaddon yearns to be as accomplished a Leader as Huron is!

And why would Abaddon want to be Huron? Abaddon has the bigger army. It is Abaddon who wants to do more than babysit an empire of pirates. It is Abaddon who has a vision and a plan to achieve it.

[Nehekhare]

And why would Abaddon want to be Huron?

Obviously because he is not of Ultramarine geneseed! Not every Primarch could simultaneously be as beloved by the emperor himself, undefeated master of every variation of warfare and as good-looking as Rowboat Girlyman! After all, none of the other Legions were able to master the codex astartes! do you need further proof?

Also, it is a well known fact that Horus was only declared Warmaster so the emperor could have Girlyman for himself, retreating to his inner sanctum to contemplate his feelings of inadaequacy and envy towards this most perfect of his sons and sacrificing himself at the end so that his true spiritual heir could rule the galaxy in his stead.  

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know if you're just being silly now or if you are actually being serious? I sincerely hope it is the former.

[*Furyou Miko]

Probably a little of both...