Warrior Acolytes: Hot-Shot Lasgun or Bolters?

[Rommel44]

Hey mates, for those who are not aware, I am currently building a Inquisitor Storm Trooper Army using Coteaz to make Henchman troops, with the plan being that all will be mounted in Chimeras for a mobile army. Currently, I have 5x Squads and they will all be squads of 12x, with all of them w/Carapace armor and 3x per squad will have either Melta's or Plasma. as for the rest of the squad, I am debating on whenever I should equip them with Bolters or Hellguns. Obviously, Bolters are a good option, as not only are they there cheapest option  they can get, but they have a good range and S4. Now for 4 more points, I can equip my guys with a Hellgun, and although a lot of people love them for the AP3, them being only 18 inch range hurts them a it, however being in a Chimera will help them in that reguard. Now currently Im leaning towards the Hellguns, as the AP3 is always nice, and plus the extra points would mean I wouldnt have to by as much as standard guard lists on top of fitting into a Mechanized list very well, the Bolter is a good all-around option that is a lot cheaper to take, and S4 is very nice against tough units like Marines and Necrons. Just looking for your opinions, thoughts, and experiences you had with or against both of these weapon choices and reasons why and thanks for the help mates.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Hellguns are the worst option you can take. Don't do it. 

 

Storm bolter all the way. You can stay at 24" if you want and still shoot at full efficiency. Storm bolters are also cheaper than hellguns. 

 

I honestly don't think bolters are worth bothering with. If you are willing to spend points to upgrade their basic shooting, pay 2/3rds more for twice the firepower. It's a good deal. If you wanna go cheap ablative wounds, adding bolters to them is a waste of points. 

[IndigoJack]

I agree that the hot-shot lasgun is a waste. Your're only hitting half the time and wounding MEQ a third of the time. It's just a waste of points.

 

I've found bolter acolytes to be effective in 6th. They're cheap, and they generally kill a few marines a game. They're also largely ignored due to how unimpressive they are. I've also found bolter acolytes easier to convert than storm bolter acolytes.

[Rommel44]

I agree that the hot-shot lasgun is a waste. Your're only hitting half the time and wounding MEQ a third of the time. It's just a waste of points.

 

I've found bolter acolytes to be effective in 6th. They're cheap, and they generally kill a few marines a game. They're also largely ignored due to how unimpressive they are. I've also found bolter acolytes easier to convert than storm bolter acolytes.

 

Fair points, however as for converting Bolters onto Cadian models, how would I go about doing that? I heard I could just glue scout arms onto the Cadian bodies and that they go very good together so would that be an option?

[Brother Bobert]

 

I agree that the hot-shot lasgun is a waste. Your're only hitting half the time and wounding MEQ a third of the time. It's just a waste of points.

 

I've found bolter acolytes to be effective in 6th. They're cheap, and they generally kill a few marines a game. They're also largely ignored due to how unimpressive they are. I've also found bolter acolytes easier to convert than storm bolter acolytes.

 

Fair points, however as for converting Bolters onto Cadian models, how would I go about doing that? I heard I could just glue scout arms onto the Cadian bodies and that they go very good together so would that be an option?

 

I've seen some nice conversions with the scout idea, other where people just use the shotguns that come with scouts as bolters. There's a rather nice conversion of two bolt pistols into a IG sized storm bolter.

[IndigoJack]

I cut the hands off random cadians (HW dudes I think) and put those on. I cut the lasgun off the other hand, and glued a bolter on. I'm actually working on a few now and I'll post some pics when I'm done.

 

as far as the SB from 2 bolt pistols, I've never got that conversion to look right. I probably could eventually, but I really like how my bolter warriors are turning out.

[IndigoJack]

Here's what my acolytes look like. They the left hand is the left hand from the cadian heavy weapons teams (the that holds the missile). The legs are catachan, the backpacks are from the medic (medic symbol scrapped off of course) and the heads are elysian drop troops.

 

http://i47.tinypic.com/k4cjzk.jpg

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nice work man. I like the look of bolter Acolytes, but I find in-game they're underwhelming. BS3 is just so annoying. Hence why I take storm bolters. 

[IndigoJack]

Nice work man. I like the look of bolter Acolytes, but I find in-game they're underwhelming. BS3 is just so annoying. Hence why I take storm bolters.

I'm not denying that storm bolters are more effective, but bolters aren't bad for the price. Stock, acolytes are garbage. A laspistol and close combat weapon are things that units that like combat want, and that is not where these guys want to be. Additionally, a laspistol scares no one. What giving them a bolter does is give them some teeth. Now they can at least hit midfield. They're aren't meant to spearhead an attack, just to provide a little fire support. Yes, storm bolters are better for this, but they cost 3x more than a bolter. I generally run my guys as cheap as possible. A "boys before toys" sorta thing.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Once again, people misquote the actual numbers and facts about a Hotshot Lasgun.

 

It is literally twice as effective, within range, as a Bolter against Marines.  The numbers do not lie.

 

Assuming BS3, a Bolter will wound about 8.33% of the time against a standard Space Marine.  A Hotshot Lasgun will wound about 16.67% of the time.  Period.  The difference is 6 inches of maximum range, and 3 inches of rapid fire range where the two weapons are tied.  A Hotshot Lasgun has shorter range, but will outwound Bolters against Marines.  The math and probability doesn't lie.

 

(For the curious, 1/2 chance to hit x 1/2 chance to wound x1/3 chance failed armor save for the Bolter = .0833

1/2 chance to hit x 1/3 chance to wound x 1 chance failed armor save for the Hotshot Lasgun = 0.1667)

 

The better comparison will be against Storm Bolters.

 

A Storm Bolter out performs a Hotshot Lasgun at a range of 18-24 inches (0.1667 vs 0)

A Storm Bolter ties a Hotshot Lasgun at a range of 9 inches to 18 inches (0.1667 for both)

A Storm Bolter is worse than a Hotshot Lasgun closer than 9 inches (0.1667 to 0.3334)

 

I really don't understand people's inherent knee-jerk reaction to Hotshot Lasguns.  Apparently they just see Strength 3 and shorter range and make silly assumptions that aren't backed up by numbers and evidence.  The numbers do not lie.  Within short range, a Hotshot Lasgun will CHEW through Marines.  It even does pretty darn well at medium range (tying or exceeding a Bolter's effectiveness from 9-18 inches and tying a Stormbolter from 9-18 inches).  The ONLY spot the weapon is worse off is at a range of 18-24 inches.  If you play defensively that might make a difference for a single turn.  If you play remotely offensively it will never come up, ever.

 

Ignore the masses who haven't done their homework.  The numbers speak for themselves if you listen.  Hotshot Lasguns are very powerful weapons if you understand them.

 

EDIT: I do want to point out these numbers are assuming you're dealing with 3+ or 4+ armored opponents.  The numbers change significantly if you're playing against say, Guard or Orks (anything with a 5+ or worse armor save).  Then the superior fire rate of the Bolter and Stormbolter change the odds.  Assuming you're facing Space Marines though, Hotshot Lasguns will kill more Marines.

 

They ARE more expensive, but they do put out the damage to be worth that expense.  If you're trying for cheap, don't take them.  If you are facing lightly armored hordes don't take them.  But do not say they are not effective, because that's just incorrect.  Argue against them based on price, or the fact that your meta doesn't include enemy Marines (heh), but do not say they are simply worse because that's incorrect.

[IndigoJack]

It's good that you used mathhammer to prove your results, but you also need to add in price/model so we can get a metric on efficiency. We'll say for the sake of argument, that we have 315 points to on acolytes. An odd number, but it's going to let us use every point given to us so we can get an accurate measurement of efficiency. We'll do five calculations; two for bolters (one at each range), one for SBs, and two for hotshot lasguns (one at each range).

 

315pts=63 bolter acolytes at 24", they will kill 5.25 marines. At 12", the number goes up to 10.50 marines. This means at 24" you kill 1.67*10^-2 marines per point and at 12" you kill 3.33*10^-2 marines per point.

 

315pts=45 SB acolytes. At 24", they kill 7.5 marines. This gives us a ratio of 2.38*10^-2 marines per point.

 

315=35 hotshot lasgun acolytes. At 18", they kill 5.83 marines. At 9", this goes up to 11.67 marines. This means at 18" you kill 1.85*10^-2 marines per point. At 9" this number goes up to 3.70*10^-2 marines per point.

 

So from these metrics, it does appear that the hotshot lasgun is the winner with the bolter in second. These metrics don't take into account a couple things though.

 

Range: throwing AP3 weapons on squishy dudes is going to paint a target on their back, and they will really only get one round of good shooting before you're either shoot to pieces or assaulted. A bolter (SB) acolyte is has 6" to fire completely outside of most units assault range.

 

Non-MEQ: As Inquisitor pointed out, the hotshot lasgun is only really effective against 4+ or better armor saves.

 

No cover: The metrics for the hotshot lasgun took into account no cover. Let's do some quick measurements. Given area terrain, 35 hotshot lasgun acolytes only kills 3.88 marines with an efficiency rating of 1.23*10^-2 marines per point. This goes up to 7.78 marines at 9" with an efficiency rating of 2.47*10^-2. So given any cover at all, the boltgun moves to most efficient weapon for acolytes.

 

Bodies: When playing GEQ units, bodies is important. Bolter acolytes simply give you the best return for your points when it comes to both bodies and efficient firing.

 

EDIT: Forgot to take into account the SBs has 2 shots, not one. It changes the metrics slightly. As expected, the SB does the best at 24". And really, this whole thing comes down to how many points you really want to spend on your acolytes and what they'll be used for.

[ShottyScotty]

Thank you for the REAL math (Inq and Indigo). Numbers make sense. Numbers are my friends. 
Now, Try tacking on a or 2 jokaero to the squad. There is a good chance that the Hot Shot Las will be 30" single, 15" doubletap. 200 points for 10 Hot Shot Las in carapiece and 2 jokaero walking. Or, just take out 7 Hot shot las, have 2 jokaero and put the 5 in the chimera. Either you'll get longer range, better armour, and inv, rending or 2 of those things. Nice cheap mobile unit

[Inquisitor Fox]

I tend to put my Henchmen in Carpace with Hotshot Lasguns.  Why?  They've always been that way :)  The Karskin and Stormtrooper models (of which I have more than 40) with various special weapons still serve me well.  Throwing a unit of say, Hotshot Lasguns, Plasma Guns, and Jokaero is a pretty effective relatively mobile firebase.  It does tend to draw attention, but utilizing Chimeras and remembering they don't operate solo helps a lot.

 

I'll not dispute IndigoJack's points.  They are very valid.  Cover does play a major part in this, and the Hotshot Lasgun does increase the units perceived threat.  You have to take that into account when you decide the personal utility/economics of using the unit.  All in all, the Bolter is a good, solid, well rounded basic firearm surpased really only by the Tau Pulse Rifle as a basic armament.  The Hotshot Lasgun is a specialist weapon for opening up tin cans, but it does it really really well.  If you're using Chimeras and picking the points to disembark and blow up bad guys, Hotshot Lasguns might work for you.  If you are in a Cityfight game you're probably going to be better off with a humble Flamer to be honest.

 

Each of the three weapons has their uses, it's really down to understanding how your army works and what style is going to work for you.  I just have to point out the strengths of the Hotshot Lasgun because I've found too often people try to dismiss it as complete and utter garbage, which it isn't.  That job is reserved for the Psilencer.

[Brother Maikel]

Edit: ninja'd by a lot. serves me right for getting distracted


@Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen: If hellguns were priced the same as Stormbolters, I'd agree wholeheartedly. The problem is that for every one hellgun acolyte you can almost get two bolter acolytes. This changes the odds substantially, bringing them well into line in favor of the bolter acolyte.

Bolters (12-24"): 2x BS3 S4 AP5
2*.5 = 1 hit
1 * .5 = .5 wounds
.5 * .33 = .1667 unsaved

Bolters (0-12"): 4x BS3 S4 AP5
4*.5 = 2 hits
2 * .5 = 1 wound
1 * .33 = .33 unsaved

This ties the hellgun at 0-9", beats it at 9-12", ties it at 12-18" and beats it at 18-24", not to mention the benefits of additional bodies for morale and additional wounds and cc attacks for close combat.

Stormbolters have less of an efficiency advantage, coming in at about 4 for the price of 3. This pushes the stormbolter's efficiency above a hellgun's at 9-18" but isn't enough to overcome the hellgun at 0-9".

The math also assumes the enemy units have no cover. If they do, the hellgun's advantage of ignoring armour is diminished, and the bolter/stormbolter's higher strength and thus higher wound rate will naturally produce more unsaved wounds.

That said, this assumes otherwise naked acolytes. Once you start tooling up the acolytes with stuff like armour or cc weaponry, the hellgun starts to look more attractive, since the marginal cost for the hellgun over a bolter or stormbolter isn't nearly enough to cover another full acolyte.


@IndigoJack: the way I look at it is I'm buying a bolter or stormbolter that happens to have a body attached to it, so the question is whether I should spend 7 points on 2 shots or 5 points on 1 shot between 12-24".

Personally, my plan is for bolters/stormbolters to keep cost/model down while maintaining a high shots/point ratio. I think which I go with for a given list depends on whether they're intended as babysitters/bonus wounds for a heavy weapons squad, in which case I'll go with bolters, or as a semi-mobile source of firepower on their own, in which case I'll likely go stormbolter (though that assumes I can scrounge up enough stormbolters to equip them).

[Inquisitor Fox]

It also makes a difference as to squad size.  I don't run Coteaz (I know, everyone thinks I'm crazy, but deal with it.  I have an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor and an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Hellrifle.  It's how I roll).  I only have so many "slots" for henchmen.  Since I am giving them Chimeras for transport or fire support, and Carapace, a Hotshot Lasgun becomes a much more attractive option for me.  When you're only going to have 4 or 5 shooters, having Hotshots over Bolters makes a large difference.

 

If you're utilizing Coteaz to creat an entire army of near naked spam shooting, I would probably go with Bolters.  If you are only creating one or two fun/specialist units then Hotshot Lasguns become much more attractive.  I use my henchmen for fun, fluff, filling holes the Knights and Allies can't cover.  It's about picking where and when as opposed to spamming large quantities of things.

 

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference and what you're trying to accomplish.  What works for you.  The trick is to have the information to make a real informed decision.  Hotshots are not always the answer.  I'll admit that right off :)  But the answer isn't "Never take Hotshot Lasguns ever" either.

[Brother Maikel]

Disclaimer: I'm not actually trying to talk you out of using hellguns, as I completely respect your choices as right for your list and your playstyle. I'm just arguing for the sake of other people looking at adding their own henchmen units, and trying to give them another factor to think about.

It also makes a difference as to squad size. I don't run Coteaz (I know, everyone thinks I'm crazy, but deal with it. I have an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor and an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Hellrifle. It's how I roll). I only have so many "slots" for henchmen. Since I am giving them Chimeras for transport or fire support, and Carapace, a Hotshot Lasgun becomes a much more attractive option for me. When you're only going to have 4 or 5 shooters, having Hotshots over Bolters makes a large difference.

Even for small squad sizes you also have to look at what the points you're spending are getting you. Getting 5 bolters instead of 5 hellguns nets you 20 extra points that might be used elsewhere to great effect (Psybolts on a 10-man strike squad? Brotherhood banner?). Heck, even swapping for stormbolters nets you 10 points that can be used for an additional grenade type or servo skulls or something. Are those points best spent on improving warrior acolyte damage output against marines in the open or are they better spent elsewhere?

If you're utilizing Coteaz to creat an entire army of near naked spam shooting, I would probably go with Bolters. If you are only creating one or two fun/specialist units then Hotshot Lasguns become much more attractive. I use my henchmen for fun, fluff, filling holes the Knights and Allies can't cover. It's about picking where and when as opposed to spamming large quantities of things.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference and what you're trying to accomplish. What works for you. The trick is to have the information to make a real informed decision. Hotshots are not always the answer. I'll admit that right off But the answer isn't "Never take Hotshot Lasguns ever" either.

This. Very much.

[IndigoJack]

I modified my calculations for the SB. Forgot to add in the fact that they have 2 shots, not one. It's always the arithmetic that get me... I can see hotshot lasguns being used for a specialty unit. They're cheaper and safer than a PG. SBs are a great midfield shooting choice, and honestly, the only reason I'm using bolters over them is because I simply can't find the points for them.

 

 

Each of the three weapons has their uses, it's really down to understanding how your army works and what style is going to work for you.  I just have to point out the strengths of the Hotshot Lasgun because I've found too often people try to dismiss it as complete and utter garbage, which it isn't.  That job is reserved for the Psilencer.

 

 

This is very much a true statement. The mathhammer is there so people can make informed decisions about efficiency. I believe experience will always trump mathhammer though, as it allows people to make truly informed decisions about what works for them. The biggest draw back to mathhammer is that it only applies to an ideal world, where dice pools always roll average. The dice we use are far from ideal however, and only come close to average with very large dice pools.

 

In short, play the game and see what works for you!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You can run the numbers all you like. 18" max range sucks hard, in a world of 24" rapid fire/Assault weapons. S3 is also a massive drawback when you can't mass it. Guard obscure how terrible lasguns are with mechanics like Orders and the ability to field them at 5pts a pop. 

 

In a firefight, storm bolters are going to win out. You have greater threat range, you are cheaper, and you never have to advance closer than 24" to hurt the enemy. These are things Henchmen like in a weapon. It also forces a Marine squad you are dueling with to close the distance, as at 24" you have twice their dakka output. Once they get in rapid-fire/assault range, the Henchmen are dead with either weapon, but they have to get there first. Hot-shots get maybe one turn of good fire off (leaping out of a Raven/Chimera, or Running the previous turn), then die. 

 

Also, if hot-shots were such a great deal, why are Stormtroopers so bad? Because S3 doesn't mean anything, in a world of T4. Cover saves have gone down, but you still only wound 1/3 shots you hit with. Stormtroopers at least have BS4 and Orders, Henchmen have BS3 and even with 'Prescience' re-rolls they miss a lot more. Also, against T3 like xenos or Guard, storm bolters are fantastic and AP largely doesn't matter (due to cover and generally terrible armour on IG/xenos units).