Boniface Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 This one does my head in because in some FAQ it say you can in others it says you cant. In what order do you have to perform the upgrades to a unit? Things like replacing options for a unit then upgrading them. I figure it should be ok because as long as you have the bits necessary for the change it should be fine. i.e swap your bolt pistol for a narthecium to become an apothecary, you could theoretically take a storm shield before the swap as this doesn't affect the upgrade. unless of course it says replace all wargear with.... in which case fair enough it make no difference how you upgrade them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upstartes Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Short answer is: there is no official answer on this, and endless arguments tend to result from asking this thread on forums. Safest thing to do is make the worst-case assumption. That's always gonna fit the rules, and it's the safest thing to do if you're going to be taking these models to tournaments. If you almost always play with the same group of people, then you can decide among yourselves and not worry about what's official. For the best of both worlds, magnetize. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3310704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 There is no RAW for this question, thus all answers are RAI/intent answers. My opinion: - no option should be taken for a model which does not result in a legal end result. So no Storm Shield on an Apothecary. - no option should be taken if the explanation for how the model got the option includes more than "model X may take". - no option should be taken for the purpose of advantage, if taking that option will be of questionable legality. - GW seems to have written their options in a generally "model --> special rules options --> wargear" flow, but that is just my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3310706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Pretty much what dswanick said. It doesn't matter how you get there as long as the end result is provably legal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3310898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 There are times where for the sake of logic its easier to think about it in an order or operations viewpoint- like upgrading a tau firewarrior to a shas'o, and then taking wargear for them. However thats just for ease and convenience of our human brains. Youre not selecting a new item here- youre selecting models. So a model has what it has and is what it is. The unit is the same way. Neither is part of your army until its written down on the army list either and so it has to be legal top down and bottom up because there is no 'between the ticks', the unit entry on your army list stands alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3311179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 While there is now RAW answer to this, I like to veer on the side of caution. Therefore, while some may argue that it's fine to upgrade a Command Squad Veteran with a thunder hammer and storm shield then upgrade him with the Company Champion stuff, I go for the safer option of just upgrading him to the Company Champion, to reduce to risk of pre-game arguments etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3311213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 IMO, the order is defined by the actual order of the words with each bullet point being it's own option relevant to itself and only itself. So, in the case of the DW command squad, you start from the top. Do you want one of your Deathwing Terminators to carry a banner? If yes, pick one. If no, don't. Do you want one of your Deathwing Terminators to be upgraded to a Deathwing Champion. This model then ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator for the purposes of all future options but as the banner option came first you may equip a Deathwing Champion with a banner. Do you want one of your Deathwing Terminators to be upgraded to a Deathwing Apothecary. This model then ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator for the purposes of all future options but as the banner option came first you may equip a Deathwing Apothecary with a banner. Do you want one of your Deathwing Terminators to carry a CML or replace his Storm Bolter with AC, PC, HF? Do you want any of your Deathwing Terminators to replace all of their weapons with 2LC or TH/SS? Do you want any of your models equipped with a Power Fist (so no Apothecary or Champion) to upgrade to a Chainfist? The use of the word Models as opposed to the actual unit name is the important bit really. If all of the words Deathwing Terminator were replaced with the word Model then you could have a Deathwing Apothecary Champion carrying a Banner with a CML, but you can't because the CML is not an option for either the Apothecary or the Champion and once the original Deathwing Terminator has been upgraded to a Champion he can no longer be an Apothecary because he isn't a Terminator anymore. Same with the Scout Squad in the same codex - any model may have a shotgun, bolter or sniper rifle but only a Scout can take a heavy bolter. It's never argued that a Scout is the same as a Scout Sergeant, so why this sudden, almost global beef with command squads? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3311512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 IMO, the order is defined by the actual order of the words with each bullet point being it's own option relevant to itself and only itself. I dunno about the portability of FAQ between codices, but this has been implicitly faq'd against in the Ork 'dex. Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100) A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead. If I recall the Boyz troop entry in that 'dex correctly you'll find that upgrading the Nob is amongst the last things listed, while upgrading the shootas is amongst the first. The implications are you can do the steps in any consecutive order, they aren't picked simultaneously, and if you can't pay the price in forfeited gear you can't take an upgrade. Is there a contradictory current FAQ out there with regard to equipment selection and options, and is it fair to extrapolate like I have? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3316867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yup. In the Ork FAQ as well. Where it mentions Pain boys can't get some upgrades. Was in the other thread about upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3316899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 No, you have it right so far. In the same Orc FAQ, it also lends evidence that all model upgrades (Boyz to Nobz, for example) happen before any equipment upgrades. Basically, unless it states the models name or generic model, you cannot take it. The Ork codex proves that with the entry about painboyz upgraded from Nobz. So no, you cannot take a standard bearer that is also a champion. You cannot take a champion standard bearer that also has a CML. Why, because standard bearer, champion, and apothecary (even the CML) are upgrades that do not have further entries for other war gear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3316904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 This has come up again so soon? Thought it was dealt with earlier this month. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3316909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 The Ork codex proves that with the entry about painboyz upgraded from Nobz. And disproves that with the nob FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3316913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 No, it doesn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3316996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boniface Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 I think having raise this issue, I will lay it to rest. All those in favour of universally saying "Until GW say otherwise you must only upgrade in the order that options are provided to you in the codex without any exceptions, (I.e. top bullet furthest left to bottom bullet furthest right) say aye." All those opposed say neigh. This is a democracy after all. we'll tally up after it's been voted on therefore anyone wishing to question in a game can say in a vote it was agreed. The only exceptions to this are where an FAQ released by GW specifically says so and that only applies to the codec the FAQ is for Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3317000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Again, there is no order of operations. It doesn't matter how, or when you upgrade a model. Only that the final model is legal. In the case of the Ork boy to Nob option, the Mob can upgrade to a Shoota, because the Shoota upgrade is for the entire mob. If the Nob does this, then he loses the option to upgrade to a power klaw. If he doesn't upgrade to a Shoota, he can swap his chops and slugga for the power klaw and the other weapon. Upgrading to a nob is the last bullet point, showing that the order doesn't matter, just the final product. Under the Nob squad options, one Nob can be upped to a painboy. Once that is done, the painboy can no longer take any upgrades that was available to a Nob, and is illegal if you try to keep the upgrades. GW seems to be heading towards an order of operations with the new codex', but there is no set in stone order. The new butler point style seems to be more for clarity than anything else. All that us important is the model is legal at the end of the upgrading. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271667-the-order-of-upgrades/#findComment-3317055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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