Garro's Audiobooks and The Plot Holes (Spoilers)

[Cerbero666]

Well I've heard all the Garro's Audiobooks to the date and I'm a little bit disappointed in some things. I think that Garro's series is making some mistakes in the planning. It started with Garro going to Ultramar to recruit Tylos Rubio, we don't know how he reach there when nobody can breach trough the warp storms (the reason why Guilliman couldn't reach Terra or be informed about the betrayal), but ok, it serves the recruiting plot. Then is Garro: Legion of One, when he with the already recruited Rubio and the offscreen recruited Varren, reach Istvaan III and get to recruit Loken. Well so, why put this series in a twisted order? why not explained the story about Varren being recruited first, to present his character, and later go on to recruit Loken? Sword of Truth (where Varren is recruited) is a great story but it should have been release before Legion of One, if not there's a great plot hole that the authors have to resolve a posteriori. Same way for Grey Angel, where Loken and Qruze go to Caliban to investigate a possible betrayal. It is no explained how was the reunion between Loken and Qruze, no mention to Keeler, Sindermann or Oliton, they just jump in there without us knowing what motivation had Malcador to send them both to spy the Dark Angels.  Again, a plot hole that probably they will resolve later, but it has just created a wrong sensation with the story. Burden of Duty in the other hand is a great story and I think that's what this series should be about. It isn't necessary to tell all the stories in the audiobooks, because some things could be answered later in a novel, but if the authors create questions and without resolving the previous ones, they confuse the readers. There's no an order in the narrative, they just release the stories, and when this is from the POV of random characters like in the short stories it's ok, but all the Garro's audiobooks are based in a particular group of people, you can't go forward and then backward and then forward again. You can't have Varren in a group without and explanation and in a next story explained all about him. You can't bring Loken to live and not explain how is his reunion with an old comrade, and with some old friends (Keeler, Sindermann, Oliton, who by the way are lost in the warp or something because they just vanished). In audiobooks like Butcher's Nails and Raven's Flight the authors gave us their presentation of some characters, some plot points, and other concepts, and LATER go to the novels (Betrayer and Deliverance Lost) to develop all those things, but it have a sense of progression, that I think is what Garro's audiobooks are lack of. And is a pity because most of the stories are well written and are really thrilling, but without a scheme to put some order in chaos...

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I partly agree and partly disagree. I think that some of the details are kept hidden from us the listeners because the story is told primarily from the perspective of the Garro and his "Knights Errant". They do not understand the reasoning behind their missions. Malcador remains unknowable and a little sinister. He can be used to explain some of the questions. Garro's journey to Calth through the Warpstorms for example. Perhaps Malcador was able to use his psychic abilities to shield and guide a single small vessel for Garro and Rubio but it was beyond even him to make a path for the Ultramarines Legion. Perhaps Malcador could have guided the Ultramarines Legion but decided it was better to leave Guilliman to plan his "Imperium Secundus" as a back up plan.

 

I agree that the order of the stories is off. Sword Of Truth is good but I would strongly advise anyone who had not yet started the series to listen to it before Legion Of One. Aboard the Daggerline we are introduced to Varren, Rakatio and Hakeem (sp?) and we don't know who we can trust, except that we already know that Varren will survive and will be the only one to make it into Legion Of One.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The warps storms did not start until the end of the book Betrayer.  This happens well after the events of Oath of Moment.  I think there was time for Garro to get in and out with Rubio. I think that the release order of the books is intended to keep some of the secretes hidden for longer.  But as with most clues i think we might be able to discover some hidden truths with work.  For example,  Why dose Garro not seem interested in the fate of Tarvitz in Legion of one, when it was the first thing on his mind when he met the loyalist Emperors Children in Sword of Truth?  I use this to add to my suspension that Tarvitz survived.  Remember "Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline"  - Sun Tzu

[Kol Saresk]

On the timing of Garro at Calth. He arrived twenty two days after Calth started. The Ruinstorm didn't erupt until several weeks after Calth. For some reason 8 weeks keeps popping up into my head. That's around forty to fifty days, give or take.

 

I can't comment on the rest.

[Cerbero666]

The warps storms did not start until the end of the book Betrayer.  This happens well after the events of Oath of Moment.  I think there was time for Garro to get in and out with Rubio. I think that the release order of the books is intended to keep some of the secretes hidden for longer.  But as with most clues i think we might be able to discover some hidden truths with work.  For example,  Why dose Garro not seem interested in the fate of Tarvitz in Legion of one, when it was the first thing on his mind when he met the loyalist Emperors Children in Sword of Truth?  I use this to add to my suspension that Tarvitz survived.  Remember "Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline"  - Sun Tzu

 

I don't really think that Tarvitz is still alive...if that's true then Istvaan III means nothing: Loken alive, Garro alive, Torgaddon (still around even if it's in a daemonic form), Tarvitz alive...then who famous and beloved character died there? 

 

On the timing of Garro at Calth. He arrived twenty two days after Calth started. The Ruinstorm didn't erupt until several weeks after Calth. For some reason 8 weeks keeps popping up into my head. That's around forty to fifty days, give or take.

 

I can't comment on the rest.

 

That's confusing in the series, if Calth was attacked after Istvaan V, how didn't Guilliman learn about the betrayal before Kor Phaeron's surprise attack? there were storms in other sectors? like in Chondax where the White Scars were in campaign? (thanks to some unexpected legion whose chief weapons are surprise) I mean there's and explanation there, that we can suppose, but it isn't exactly expressed in the novels (if my memory doesn't betray me)

[Kol Saresk]

The same reason the Khan didn't. The information wasn't allowed to reach Gulliman until Lorgar delivered it.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

The warps storms did not start until the end of the book Betrayer.  This happens well after the events of Oath of Moment.  I think there was time for Garro to get in and out with Rubio. I think that the release order of the books is intended to keep some of the secretes hidden for longer.  But as with most clues i think we might be able to discover some hidden truths with work.  For example,  Why dose Garro not seem interested in the fate of Tarvitz in Legion of one, when it was the first thing on his mind when he met the loyalist Emperors Children in Sword of Truth?  I use this to add to my suspension that Tarvitz survived.  Remember "Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline"  - Sun Tzu

 

I don't really think that Tarvitz is still alive...if that's true then Istvaan III means nothing: Loken alive, Garro alive, Torgaddon (still around even if it's in a daemonic form), Tarvitz alive...then who famous and beloved character died there? 

 

List of dead, famous and beloved characters @ Istvaan III:  Solomon Demeter,  Tarik Torgoddon, Ullis Temeter,  Huron-Fal,  Ehrlen,  Not that this will be enough blood to fill your cup to satisfaction but you asked.

 

[Cerbero666]

 

 

The warps storms did not start until the end of the book Betrayer.  This happens well after the events of Oath of Moment.  I think there was time for Garro to get in and out with Rubio. I think that the release order of the books is intended to keep some of the secretes hidden for longer.  But as with most clues i think we might be able to discover some hidden truths with work.  For example,  Why dose Garro not seem interested in the fate of Tarvitz in Legion of one, when it was the first thing on his mind when he met the loyalist Emperors Children in Sword of Truth?  I use this to add to my suspension that Tarvitz survived.  Remember "Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline"  - Sun Tzu

 

I don't really think that Tarvitz is still alive...if that's true then Istvaan III means nothing: Loken alive, Garro alive, Torgaddon (still around even if it's in a daemonic form), Tarvitz alive...then who famous and beloved character died there? 

 

List of dead, famous and beloved characters @ Istvaan III:  Solomon Demeter,  Tarik Torgoddon, Ullis Temeter,  Huron-Fal,  Ehrlen,  Not that this will be enough blood to fill your cup to satisfaction but you asked.

 

 

 

Yes, I meant central characters like Garro, Tarvitz and Loken, POV characters if you prefer. Obviously Demeter, Temeter, Rylanor (maybe), Ehrlen, died like heroes, Nero Vipus, Vaddon,Titus Cassar, etc... but if all the charactes with the greater development like Tarvitz and Loken, are alive...well...to start with the resurrection of Loken would have meant nothing. The thing with Loken brought back to live was that he is the only survivor on the ground, a miracle, if Tarvitz is alive too...well, I would love to see him kicking Lucius ass, but again I think that his character has more meaning staying dead. I would say the same if Ullis Temeter was brought back to live, or Vipus, Ehrlen, Skraal, Cestus, etc, etc... Tarvitz could be alive, maybe, but that would mean that Rylanor would be alive too, and Vipus, and a bunch of other EC's and Luna Wolves, and that would mean that they left the planet before Garro arrived to find Loken, how? The fact that Garro didn't mentioned Tarvitz in the audiobook is probably an error of the author, he maybe forget it, that doesn't mean he's alive. 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

 

The warps storms did not start until the end of the book Betrayer.  This happens well after the events of Oath of Moment.  I think there was time for Garro to get in and out with Rubio. I think that the release order of the books is intended to keep some of the secretes hidden for longer.  But as with most clues i think we might be able to discover some hidden truths with work.  For example,  Why dose Garro not seem interested in the fate of Tarvitz in Legion of one, when it was the first thing on his mind when he met the loyalist Emperors Children in Sword of Truth?  I use this to add to my suspension that Tarvitz survived.  Remember "Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline"  - Sun Tzu

 

I don't really think that Tarvitz is still alive...if that's true then Istvaan III means nothing: Loken alive, Garro alive, Torgaddon (still around even if it's in a daemonic form), Tarvitz alive...then who famous and beloved character died there? 

 

List of dead, famous and beloved characters @ Istvaan III:  Solomon Demeter,  Tarik Torgoddon, Ullis Temeter,  Huron-Fal,  Ehrlen,  Not that this will be enough blood to fill your cup to satisfaction but you asked.

> 

 

Yes, I meant central characters like Garro, Tarvitz and Loken, POV characters if you prefer. Obviously Demeter, Temeter, Rylanor (maybe), Ehrlen, died like heroes, Nero Vipus, Vaddon,Titus Cassar, etc... but if all the charactes with the greater development like Tarvitz and Loken, are alive...well...to start with the resurrection of Loken would have meant nothing. The thing with Loken brought back to live was that he is the only survivor on the ground, a miracle, if Tarvitz is alive too...well, I would love to see him kicking Lucius ass, but again I think that his character has more meaning staying dead. I would say the same if Ullis Temeter was brought back to live, or Vipus, Ehrlen, Skraal, Cestus, etc, etc... Tarvitz could be alive, maybe, but that would mean that Rylanor would be alive too, and Vipus, and a bunch of other EC's and Luna Wolves, and that would mean that they left the planet before Garro arrived to find Loken, how? The fact that Garro didn't mentioned Tarvitz in the audiobook is probably an error of the author, he maybe forget it, that doesn't mean he's alive. 

 

These same arguments were used to show why Loken could/should not survive.   His survival some how cheapened the grim-dark of the Heresy.  I don't think  it cheapens the story of Garro that Verran also ran the blockade on Istvaan III. I think there is a reason why they picked Tarvitz, Loken and Garro to develop, they lived.   Solomon Demeter and  Tarik Torgoddon were more likeable characters then Saul and Gavril.   Their deaths were the "big gloom" of their story's.  The way i feel, if Loken and Tarvitz don't live on to get revenge for these tragic events, its a waste.  As to the how it could happen? Well Rylanor was known to be guarding a underground "Hanger".  Sent their by Tarvitz to a location Saul would not even trust to his closest friend, Lucius.  How could they survive the bombs u ask i bet?  Well Tarvitz and co were in the remains of a temple at the end.   Good place for a God to do some Divine intervention.  If Loken is good enough for a miracle, why not Saul?  Now you say that the writers could be making an error and this is a possibility, they are humans.  The way i hear it, they talk really closely about the plots of their story's.  I am not trying to prove Tarvits is alive, only point to clues I have picked up on.  I find the fact that he cant be Proven dead as yet another clue to his survival.

[Sgt.Sangha]

Was a character named Tarvitz supposed to make it off Istvaan 3 in the original story of the Eisenstein? My point being that if someone should have survived it should have been him. Also perhaps the author who wrote about a secret hanger was just leaving an opening to allow himself or other members of the heresy team to exploit later on in the series...it would sure go a long way then Loken surviving the bombing. 

[Aegnor]

OP seems to be confusing/conflating plot-holes and "stuff not shown happening".

 

The mixed up order was a bit of a pity, in terms of robbing Sword of Truth of some suspence - in that we knew Varren would survive and join Garro's gang. Most likely explanation for why they did it that way was that James Swallow probably wrote and finished Legion of One years before he finished Sword of Truth, and Black Library were probably keen to release a Garro Audio drama at that stage. Authors don't always write their stories in neat chronological order.

 

I'm still unconvinced by the whole bringing Loken back from the dead thing. Legion of One was handled ok, given that it was going to be a story about that topic. Not sure what they're going to do in terms of storyline to justify that decision as more than a momentary feel good factor though. Loken popped up in Grey Angel, and while his character was used nicely there in one way, in another way, there's no reason why grey ghost in the story couldn't have been Garro - it being Lolen wasn't necessary. What is the reason to bring Loken back? Another show down with Abaddon? With Horus himself? We know how that must end given we know Loken killed neither of them. A showdown with Horus Aximand? A bit of an anti-climax. Founding member of the =I= and/or Grey Knights? Not worth damaging the impact of Galaxy in Flames for - again, Garro can do that, and what does Loken doing it add?

 

I loved Loken in the first three books, and felt he had a properly epic death for such a great character. Will wait with interest to see what Swallow and others do to not make his revival ultimately a fizzed.

[Augustus]

Garro asks about Tarvitz in the Sword of Truth

[Count Orlok]

Hasn't Abnett outright said that Garro was never supposed to b dead in the first place and that Galaxy in Flames wasn't as ambiguous as he would have liked in that regard? That being the case, there is no "Garro coming back from the dead" and instead "things being put back onto the proper track after a bit of a bump".

 

Of course, in classic internet discussion style I have no source for this, but I am certain that there was an interview released after GiF came out where he said as much or at least alluded to it. Where it was released or by whom is no longer in my fleshy memory bank.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Hasn't Abnett outright said that Garro was never supposed to b dead in the first place and that Galaxy in Flames wasn't as ambiguous as he would have liked in that regard? That being the case, there is no "Garro coming back from the dead" and instead "things being put back onto the proper track after a bit of a bump".

 

Of course, in classic internet discussion style I have no source for this, but I am certain that there was an interview released after GiF came out where he said as much or at least alluded to it. Where it was released or by whom is no longer in my fleshy memory bank.

 

Yeh you are right but i think you mean Loken, not Garro.   I think the authors wanted us readers to feel Loken was dead so they could get a pay off when he was found alive.  Same is true for Tarvitz, i think.  If you read the opening Trilogy with the idea that Loken and Tarvitz survive you may see what i mean.

[Count Orlok]

Bah!!! Yeah, that was Loken. That's what comes of posting just after I've spent two hours doing my Finnish homework!!

 

I keep meaning to reread the first three books again, so I'll pop them on the top of the pile and give that a go.