The New Dark Angels Codex: An Editorial

[facmanpob]

One extra note:

 

Complaining about fluff changes in the 40k world is like complaining that the weather changes day by day (for those in California, please note that the rest of the world doesn't have sun every day! ;) ).

 

e.g. Sammael didn't always ride a jetbike.....he had a bike or a speeder in Codex Angels of Death. At some point his fluff changed..... and once upon a time you had to put a Techmarine in an army in order to field a Dreadnought.

 

And as if to back up my point its just started snowing in London! :)

[Master Avoghai]

I do think that this codex is very good. Actually I love all the possibilities it offers and I hope that the following codex would be of the same level (ie : not more )

 

I agree with some of your points but I would like to add my little touch of temperance :lol:

[*]Blade of Caliban - +1 to strength and Unwieldy. How does that make sense?

Because it costs 5pts? You cannot expect the same effects as a 15pts power weapon

 

Actually I think the main problem is the shield more than the blade. GW should have make the shield 4++ in CC only.

 

[*]More named characters mainly as unit upgrades - this is simply a wish list item.

Sure that Naaman misses but it doesn't really match with the "scouts kept away from DW goals" feeling of the new dex

 

[*]Company Vet Squad with Jump Packs - Mainly I just want vets with jump packs, and I think it would be cool.

Though I'd like to see have vets accompanying my chaplain or my master with JP, I think it's kinda normal they don't get the option in a theme PoV.

Jump pack are kinda BA-linked, just like plasma is DA-linked. (Note that I'm not found of this image).

It's more an editorial problem, a need to differentiate strongly the codex between each other and say : you get some you lose some.

[*]Ravenwing command squad being only 3 guys - why couldn't it be 5 like the other command squads

I agree but see also a rationnal : it allows you to take a knight squad without using a FA slot.

This is different from the DW where the command squad is an upgrade of standard squad. I myself prefer recruiting a normal squad when I field Belial in a mixwing because it gives me an additional scoring unit : much more interesting than a non scoring command squad.

 

Here it's different because BK are non scoring anyway. So as long as you field a character on bike, you can get a squad of BK and leave free the 3FA slots.

Keeping them 3-men strong introduces a compensation (and also temper the banner of devastation combo)

 

But I agree it's sad and finally lead to play command squad without the full options.

 

[*]Regular Chaplains as elite choice a la Blood Angels and their Sanguinary Priest - Again, mainly a wish list item.

I'm not sure if we have as mainly chaplains as BA have sanguinary priests... But I admit it could have been a nice and easy addition though.

 

[*]Weapon options for Deathwing Knights - I just would like the options of swords or something.

Well I think their design is nice and that GW wanted to give a medieval look. Mace fulfills this role and force DA players to add some variety. Not all sword army. IMO the following point is much more an issue than the mace.

 

[*]Maybe a better price for Deathwing Knights - It's only ten more points to take a squad of Deathwing terminators of the same and give them TH/SS

Very good point. This is something that deserved to be analyzed. Why should I field those knights when I can field some that can use Smite (more or less) every turn, add a CML and hold objectives when Belial is here?

 

[*]Maybe some other weapon options for Black Knights - Again, I'd just like my black knights to be more, well, knightly with swords.

Sword is not a characteristic of knights. The weapon that get the BK are original in the SM armoury and also have a strong medieval knightly look. We get lots of pics of knights and crusaders using comparable hammers during middle age.

 

[*]Vet Sergeants having access to Special Issue Wargear - Give me a reason to upgrade my sergeant, and I would like an auspex in my tactical squad.

If you want to equip your sgt with PW I strongly recommend to give him the vet sgt status.

 

[*]Some weapon options for the Dark Talon - Why can't I just take a regular bomb?

[*]I would give up the Dark Talon for a flier with troop transport.

I don't really matter for the absence of regular bomb.

The main problem of our flyers is the price. The dark talon gun is lame and it should have kept the HB.

The missiles of the nephilim should have been S7 at least.

 

But I recognize that your rule of one codex = 1 air fighter + 1 air transport is totally fair simple and easy to realize.

 

[*]OH MY GOD the new land speeders - First and foremost new models instead of the hideous things that were given, and something that would prevent the Land Speeder Vengeance from blowing itself up. Maybe an extra hull point? A point higher in AP? Internal cooling for the Plasma Cannons, because the thing is big enough and they could stick it in the passanger seat that the gunner had to give up for an unknown reason.

 

Apart from the design let's talk about the rules

IMO both should be A11 they are big enough to justify it and would make them insensible to bolters.

Concerning the plasma weaponry, I recognize that a reroll the get hot for heavy internal cooling should be added. I also think that the riffle mode should be given an additional 12" range. If not, I don't see the use of this mode.

 

I would add to your list the apothecary issue : replacing the weapon by the narrhecium is an big error in my opinion. Particularly when the apothecary becomes a character. This is even more true for RW and DW: why should I pay for losing a PF or a Corvus hammer? This is sad as we have now nice bits for that... :-(

 

Yes we could improve some things and that's why new editions are for aren't they? ;-)

 

What I don't understand though is that, apart from the BK, all the new releases are kinda weak and/or overcosted. I feel it strange because as a models selling company, GW should be tempted to overpower a little its new releases in order to guarantee the sales.

[Brother Landrain]

Sorry but speeking as a former squid...

The Marines really do not trust the IG all that much for 'support' and they fight side by side on the ground.

Do you think they would trust the IN to an even more important responsability?

 

Storm Talon/Raven/Eagle are all really based more on Assault Helicopters than Planes.

 

While the Nephilim and Darktalon are more in the line of Harriers and A-10.

Which were used more by the Marines and Army than by the Airforce.

 

Dedicated Ground Attack and Support aircraft are usually used by the ground forces.

[elphilo]

Like with every codex there are short comings. I agree that our flyers leave something to be desired, but I think the rest of the book is fine. I like the balancing turn GW is taking with these past few releases. But because it is balanced it leaves many people with their head scratching saying why did they do this and that? Balance is that answer. I think Master Avoghai summed it up nicely. And I just wanted to agree with him.

 

Now, we can only hope Codex: Daemons will be as balanced as CSM and DA. 

[Upstartes]

Space Marines frequently operate alone, without the Navy. They have to have some air power of their own.

 

I would have liked a few more HQ options/special chars that allowed successor chapters to have a different HQ flavor instead of just being counts-as HQs.

[Brother Landrain]

Like with every codex there are short comings. I agree that our flyers leave something to be desired, but I think the rest of the book is fine. I like the balancing turn GW is taking with these past few releases. But because it is balanced it leaves many people with their head scratching saying why did they do this and that? Balance is that answer. I think Master Avoghai summed it up nicely. And I just wanted to agree with him.

 

Now, we can only hope Codex: Daemons will be as balanced as CSM and DA. 

Looking at the rumoured GDoK... I am wondering.

If not in the 400 pt range he appears way OTT.

[elphilo]

Like with every codex there are short comings. I agree that our flyers leave something to be desired, but I think the rest of the book is fine. I like the balancing turn GW is taking with these past few releases. But because it is balanced it leaves many people with their head scratching saying why did they do this and that? Balance is that answer. I think Master Avoghai summed it up nicely. And I just wanted to agree with him.

Now, we can only hope Codex: Daemons will be as balanced as CSM and DA.

Looking at the rumoured GDoK... I am wondering.

If not in the 400 pt range he appears way OTT.

Yep, the great balancer is points

[Azoriel]

One extra note:

Complaining about fluff changes in the 40k world is like complaining that the weather changes day by day (for those in California, please note that the rest of the world doesn't have sun every day! ).

e.g. Sammael didn't always ride a jetbike.....he had a bike or a speeder in Codex Angels of Death. At some point his fluff changed..... and once upon a time you had to put a Techmarine in an army in order to field a Dreadnought.

And as if to back up my point its just started snowing in London!

Sammael wasn't in Codex: Angels of Death - the character was an invention of the 4E codex. In Codex: Angels of Death, "Master of the Ravenwing" was certainly a valid HQ choice, but didn't have a name. In the 3E codex, there's reference to a "Grand Master Gidian of the Ravenwing", but you can play the Master of the Ravenwing under any name you want (still no Sammael).

[Tiger9gamer]

Penescola, I like your Articles on the HH, I really do. but I think myself and a lot of people will disagree with you on the DA, both here and Dakka. the codex is fun and fluffy, and although it has it's shortcomings, they don't overpower and they have a nice balance between models.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@Tiger9gamer

 

Thanks for the compliament on my HH articles. I've got another one ready to post for tomorrow.

 

I can respect the fact that you disagree with me. I'm only going to do one more article on the shortcomings that I've notice simply to finish it up. I know have have this posted on Dakka as well as here. That is mainly because 1) they are two different forums, and I figure I can reach a wider number of people 2) It's also to selfishly boost my blog traffic.

 

Now, I have said this numorus times. I do not think the codex is horrible, nor do I think it is un-fun to play. I just feel it could have been bettre and STILL be balanced. I have a hard time accepting that this shortcoming, mistakes, oversights, flaws, whatever you would like to call them were done with a grand scheme to keep the codex balanced. How would making the Blade of Caliban on par with a regular power sword unbalance the codex? How would allowing a company master to take a bike unbalance the codex? Why are Servitors a seperate unit and not a Techmarine wargear options? Would make them a wargear option unbalance the codex? Why does Asmodai not have a ranged attack? Would making the Blades of Reason not a Specialist Weapon unbalance the codex? Besides the few wish list things I have, which I'm sure everyone has for every codex, it's the answer to these questions that I'm trying to drive at.

[Vash113]

Meh...thunderhawks are armed transports.  They're NOT gunships.  And it would be okay for the marines to start acquiring/deploying proper figher/interceptors IFANDONLYIF they wrote fluff to explain away the flouting of various edicts and such...advancing the fluff (along with the timeline!) is one thing...ignoring it to boost sales is...cheap.  Show me where they write in anywhere how various chapters either convinced the High Lords of Terra to give them permission to maintain air power, or where they decided "screw terra, we're above the law?"  That fluff doesn't exist, therefore the aircraft are unfluffy!  They closest thing to that, thus far, is the bit where DA Techmarines fabricate a weapon carried by an illegal aircraft...and deny knowledge of the STC they use to create the weapon...not the aircraft.  For the navy not be be up in arms over the fact that the marines have an air force of their own now, when they're unhappy enough that they have the transport capacity to self-deploy their ground forces, is unfluffy.  For the inquisition not to be using this breach of "the way things work" (navy does the flying, MI does the dying) as an excuse to launch investigations that are actually looking into completely unrelated suspicions of heresy and such...unfluffy.  No, it's as if GW said:  "Well, we wrote that fluff a while ago, so it's not that big a deal to just pretend it's not there...look, GamerZ!  Shiny, expensive toys!"

 

I don't get the issue, there are tons of fluff pieces where Chapters routinely flout the edicts of the Lords of Terra, they are an Adeptus and oversight is neither common nor welcome, hense the Badab War. As for Thunderhawks, armed aircraft are gunships, that is the definition of a gunship, whether they have transport capacity or not. Stormbirds, Thunderhawks, Hawkwings, all gunships that the Astartes use as interceptors, air-support and air-superiority craft, transports and attack craft. General multi-role aircraft. Again the addition of dedicated attack craft such as the Dark Talon, Nephilim and Storm Talon are not really outside the realm of possibility or precedent within established fluff. That said, established fluff has changed, Tigurius used to be half-eldar, Leman Russ used to be an Imperial Guard commander, Space Marines used to use lasblasters. The fluff changes, evolves, bad ideas or less well constructed ideas fall by the wayside while better or more popular material gets expanded, renewed and refurbished.

 

Besides, why would the Navy care what the marines do? The Marines have always had their own ships and transports, why would the Navy want to do the lug work for the Astartes? For that matter how many Navy personnel have ever met an Astartes? How many have fought alongside the Astartes? How many even know for certain they exist? No, that is the realm of the Inquisition to be bothered about, and they do, and there is plenty of material about what happens when they do, the Emperor's Gift, the Badab War books, the background of the Celestial Lions, etc.

 

As for the aircraft being illegal, again it is not, just a modification of the Storm Talon which is (according to the new fluff) a widely accepted and deployed addition to the Astartes forces. The Mechanicum might get antsy about unauthorized modifications to a standard template design but other precedents exist, such as most of the Land Raider variants.

 

Fluff changes, it has before, it will again. Who knows, maybe in 6th edition the Inquisition and High Lords will take the stick to the Astartes for going too far. Heck 6th Edition is heavy with the theme of the Astartes gaining more and more power, more and more territory, becoming ever larger centers of control and authority, isolated fiefdoms scattered across the Imperium. The Age of Apostasy stuff established that and 6th Edition seems to be running with it.

 

 

@Tiger9gamer

 

Thanks for the compliament on my HH articles. I've got another one ready to post for tomorrow.

 

I can respect the fact that you disagree with me. I'm only going to do one more article on the shortcomings that I've notice simply to finish it up. I know have have this posted on Dakka as well as here. That ismainly because 1) they are two different forums, and I figure I can reach a wider number of people 2) It's also to selfishly boost my blog traffic.

 

Now, I have said this numorus times. I do not think the codex is horrible, nor do I think it is un-fun to play. I just feel it could have been bettre and STILL be balanced. I have a hard

time accepting that this shortcoming, mistakes, oversights, flaws, whatever you would like to call them were done with a grand scheme to keep the codex balanced. How would making the Blade of Caliban on par with a regular power sword unbalance the codex? How would allowing a company master to take a bike unbalance the codex? Why are Servitors a seperate unit and not a Techmarine wargear options? Would make them a wargear option unbalance the codex? Why does Asmodai not have a ranged attack? Would making the Blades of Reason not a Specialist Weapon unbalance the codex? Besides the few wish list things I have, which I'm sure everyone has for every codex, it's the answer to these questions that I'm trying to drive at.

 

I'm not sure balance is the answer to some of those issues. The lack of a bike option for Company Masters is more of a fluff issue I think. Only the Ravenwing are supposed to be deploying on bikes so standard Company Masters on bikes doesn't fit. I think it was the same issue in the last codex as to why Company Masters couldn't take Terminator Armor but since all Company Masters are members of the Deathwing anyway, they went ahead and included the option.

 

Other issues like the Blades of Reason and Blade of Caliban might simply be an attempt to make the weapons "Special" without too much thought going into it. Instead of being overthought and overtweaked for balance it could simply be an oversight. With the Dark Talon I think it was also an attempt to make it extra special and unique, what with the fluff making it a Fallen transport with a stasis casket, the stasis bomb, rift cannon and all the ornamentation, cool and unique over simple effectiveness like the Nephilim. Anyway just my two cents on that.

[facmanpob]

One extra note:

Complaining about fluff changes in the 40k world is like complaining that the weather changes day by day (for those in California, please note that the rest of the world doesn't have sun every day! ).

e.g. Sammael didn't always ride a jetbike.....he had a bike or a speeder in Codex Angels of Death. At some point his fluff changed..... and once upon a time you had to put a Techmarine in an army in order to field a Dreadnought.

And as if to back up my point its just started snowing in London!

Sammael wasn't in Codex: Angels of Death - the character was an invention of the 4E codex. In Codex: Angels of Death, "Master of the Ravenwing" was certainly a valid HQ choice, but didn't have a name. In the 3E codex, there's reference to a "Grand Master Gidian of the Ravenwing", but you can play the Master of the Ravenwing under any name you want (still no Sammael).

That's called splitting hairs, and doesn't invalidate the point I was making.

[Vash113]

One extra note:

Complaining about fluff changes in the 40k world is like complaining that the weather changes day by day (for those in California, please note that the rest of the world doesn't have sun every day! ).

e.g. Sammael didn't always ride a jetbike.....he had a bike or a speeder in Codex Angels of Death. At some point his fluff changed..... and once upon a time you had to put a Techmarine in an army in order to field a Dreadnought.

And as if to back up my point its just started snowing in London!

Sammael wasn't in Codex: Angels of Death - the character was an invention of the 4E codex. In Codex: Angels of Death, "Master of the Ravenwing" was certainly a valid HQ choice, but didn't have a name. In the 3E codex, there's reference to a "Grand Master Gidian of the Ravenwing", but you can play the Master of the Ravenwing under any name you want (still no Sammael).

That's called splitting hairs, and doesn't invalidate the point I was making.

Agreed. For that matter you can still field the Grand Master of the Ravenwing under any name you wish, Sammael is simply the name on the unit entry.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

On the note of fliers, I for one am glad to see them whether or not they are good or back. I think it's a cool idea, and one that I've wanted to see for a while. As for the fluff aspect of the space marine fliers, I think people are looking at it wrong. The aircraft that have been introduced for use by the space marines do fit the role that many of the space marine vehicles follow. They are basically air support or transports. To put it into real world terms, I think the aircraft that the space marines have access to would fill the same role as Harriers, Cobra helicopters, or even A-10s.

[Azoriel]

One extra note:

Complaining about fluff changes in the 40k world is like complaining that the weather changes day by day (for those in California, please note that the rest of the world doesn't have sun every day! ).

e.g. Sammael didn't always ride a jetbike.....he had a bike or a speeder in Codex Angels of Death. At some point his fluff changed..... and once upon a time you had to put a Techmarine in an army in order to field a Dreadnought.

And as if to back up my point its just started snowing in London!

Sammael wasn't in Codex: Angels of Death - the character was an invention of the 4E codex. In Codex: Angels of Death, "Master of the Ravenwing" was certainly a valid HQ choice, but didn't have a name. In the 3E codex, there's reference to a "Grand Master Gidian of the Ravenwing", but you can play the Master of the Ravenwing under any name you want (still no Sammael).

That's called splitting hairs, and doesn't invalidate the point I was making.

Agreed. For that matter you can still field the Grand Master of the Ravenwing under any name you wish, Sammael is simply the name on the unit entry.

Perhaps I wasn't clear on this, as it seems to me you've both missed my own point entirely. At no point have I said you couldn't play a "counts as Sammael" model in lieu of Sammael (where did that come from?). My point is that Sammael's appearance in 4th Edition is an evolution of the existing fluff that doesn't necessarily contradict what was already written. While you can choose to treat Sammael as a complete retcon of the faceless generic "Master of Ravenwing" from 2nd and 3rd Edition (with full liberties to the chapter armoury), I've always viewed him as an expansion of what was already established: the previous Masters of Ravenwing (from 2nd and 3rd Edition) were slain in battle (to include Gidian, or "Gideon" as it's now spelt) and "Sammael" (or whatever name you wish to give him) has since taken over. This is not a contradiction of what already came before unless you want to read it that way. (While the previous Masters of the Ravenwing didn't ride jetbikes, it's outright stated "Sammael" is remarkably daring even for one of his office. And perhaps the tech wasn't ready for field use before Sammael took over; it certainly hasn't been around long enough to produce whole squads of jetbikers.) Maybe in your own game, "Sammael" has some other name and history, and that's fine - but I still consider the whole jetbike riding thing to be a relatively recent occurrence.

Nobody cries over Lysander making the transition from Sergeant to Captain - however, no few people have grumbled about the Ultramarines adopting Tyrannic War Vets and other blatantly non-Codex adherent units. There's a difference between these two kinds of change, and that's what I wanted to illustrate. You and I may ultimately disagree on which of these two changes Sammael represents, and that's fine - but understand the difference there isn't as irrelevant as you may think.

[Anabis_Xero]

I wont say much because I really like the codex personaly, could it use tweaks here or there sure but I really like the dex tons of different builts, everythings cheaper, and new fluffy units that are fun to use and look at.  My only thihng is i with people would stop complaining about the blade of caliban, maybe if you where just getting a PW for the points but your not so you cant look at the upgrade as just a sword your getting statictical upgrades, a power weapon at +1 str, an invunerable save, and charecter status. Well worth the points in my oppinion espicaly considering in the command squad youll ofter have an IC of some form attached so if you need something at int. value to swing in a challenge there you go.

 

That being said i do with our chappys where available in the elite slots, I really wanted to run a list with a commander (sammy, beliel, azrial or generic) with a libby and chaplin in a unit with command squad, just feels fun and fluffy to me but o well I guess thats whgat 2k pts and double force org is for.

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@Vash113

 

I completely missed your response, so I'll address. The list of questions and issues that I posted are really the just the beginning. You're explaination of why company masters can't take bikes makes sense, and I'm alright with that explaination. However, your explaination for things like the Blades of Reason and the Blade of Caliban, if true, is just infuriating and shows an attitude of apathy and laziness on the side of the developers. I find that more hurtful than anything both to my love of the game and hobby as well as my wallet.

 

@Anabis_Xero

 

I too have enjoyed tinkering around with different builds in the codex. I'm actually going to be playing my 5th game using the codex tomorrow, and each time I have completely redone my list. I'm sorry thought but the Blade of Caliban and by extention the champion upgrade is a glaring issue exspecially when we compaire it to the Deathwing champion. We will follow your lead and look at the big picture. A champion upgrade for a regular command squad is 15 points. The same points for a power weapon that could be what ever I want. As you pointed out, I get +1 str and Unwieldy, a 5++ invul, the ability to accept and issue challenges, and a 4+ Look Out, Sir.  Taking him up against a MEQ sergeant I will be going last, which means I have to sit and take all the attacks that are coming at me. If said sergeant is armed with a power sword, I must rely on my 5++ invul save and if that fails I have the 4+ Look Out, Sir, which would kill one of the 4 other models around the champion. Losing a single model in a 5 man squad causes the squad to take a major hit in its overall combat effiecency. Now, I'm not a math person, but the more times I have to roll to save my self the better the chance of me dying or one of the squad memebers dying.

[march10k]

 

Complaining about fluff changes

Except that they haven't bothered to change the fluff...they've just handed out new toys in violation of the fluff, without bothering to change existing fluff or write additional fluff to explain how "no air power outside the navy" doesn't really mean what we think it means. Big difference! And Sammy getting a jetbike was NOT problematic. It didn't contradict or violate any fluff. There was no fluff along the lines of "and the grand master of the raven wing doesn't own a jetbike."

 

/edit/

 

And the definition of 'gunship' is NOT "anything that flies that can shoot!" That's about as valid as defining 'girlfriend' as "any female with whom you have a non-hostile relationship."

[Master Avoghai]

Pensacola : I regret you don't react to the previous post I've made on page 1 because I would have greatly appreciate your feedback.

 

I've replied to your further questions here

 

 

 

How would making the Blade of Caliban on par with a regular power sword unbalance the codex?

 

Again : the Blade of Caliban is 5 pts. The main problem is the combat shield

 

How would making the Blade of Caliban on par with a regular power sword unbalance the codex?

 

How would allowing a company master to take a bike unbalance the codex?

 

 

As other said : it's more a problem of justification. The codex states that masters are recruited in the DW. Sure, some of them should have known the ranks of the RW before (and maybe they are the future MoRW), but as the codex organisation states, all the bikes are in the RW. The other ones are training in the 8th support company. The  codex are supposed to help you building a battle company. At the very least, a reserve company of tactical marines. But following the org chart system you cannot represent the 8th company (assault marines, speeders and bikes), so what's the point of taking a Master of bike?

 

Actually I return the question : Do you really think that the lack of such option is making the codex "unperfect"?

 

The answer is maybe : why bothering with such an useless option and take the risk to introduce a loophole? I think I would have done the same.

 

Why are Servitors a seperate unit and not a Techmarine wargear options? Would make them a wargear option unbalance the codex?

 

 

As a Thousand Sons player who used to play with the v3.5 chaos codex (and the books of gods inside), I had to play with apprentice that were recruited as wargear. And Yes I can garantee you that such way to play (considering model with CC,CT, S,T,W etc as a wargear rather than real model) is really a pain as it introduces lots of loopholes in the game, (loss of fearlessness, majoritary T and save, etc etc etc). GW removed that and I'm sure they don't want to come back that way. And so don't I.

 

 

Why does Asmodai not have a ranged attack? Would making the Blades of Reason not a Specialist Weapon unbalance the codex?

 

 Asmodai is an issue since v3 : they kept the old model's wargear though it was useless (since crozius and Psword had both the same effect), and now it could have a use (choosing between S6AP4 or S4AP3), they removed the model and create this ugly thing.... Actually, more than the profile of the blades of reason. It's more the reasonning of model creation I would like to understand..

 

Sad to see that Games Days will probably disappear this years and we wouldn't have the opportunity to have a chat with the conceptors any more. :(

[Brother Immolator]

march10k is hitting nails

Ill throw my 2cents for whatever its worth.

I agree with march10k in everything, but thats 40k and GW. We love to hate them for that.

On the opening post I have to say this: The warlord traits are exactly what you would expect from an unforgiven character. Yes the named ones all have the hunt (except the RW master) but it plays to their fluff. They are both brooding figures that concearn themselves with it. One in the inner circle and the other on the field/interrogating.

Also if Az had eternal they might as well have given him a rule that preventet him from dying ever. Has anyone fielded they guy? Short of grey knight thunder hammers he cant die. He has a 2+ armor FNP6 and a 4++ and 4W and we want and eternal warrior to boot?

If something instakills him, deserves a medal.

Stobz after surviving the destruction of NZ in 21 december wants his cake and eat it too

M8y I am afraid that if we want to have the absolute perfection in tabletop/fluff/models we must change our game. And even then we wont be 100% happy me thinks. BTW The plasmastorm speeder has grown on me somehow. Yes its fuggly but...I dont know. They must have a choir of psykers medling with our thoughts somewhere.

On a side note what the heck is with the knight master pose? Is belial training them in the "I surrender" pose?

[PensacolaWarhammer]

@Master Avogal

:) I missed your first post because it made too much sense, was well written, and logical. With that, let us go through your points and look at them.

• The Blade of Caliban - In the Ravenwing Command Squad, it is only 5 points, but in the regular Command Squad, it is 15 points. There are a few theories that people have suggested GW was attempting for this piece of wargear. As one poster put it, it may have been GW's way of making the weapon special without really thinking about, which I find lazy and insulting. Your suggestion of the shield being 4++ is another suggestion that woulld have taken the sting out of an Unwieldy sword.
• Named Characters - While I understand and accept the "scouts kept away from Deathwing goals" feel of the codex, I think this feel could have been kept while also allowing players to explore the lower ranks of the Dark Angels. Basically, I would have allowed players, like me, to create a narrative and more complete Dark Angels character with the inclusion of other named characters. I don't even pretend to know what their rules would be.
• Company Vets with Jump Packs - Your point I have very little problem with. I understand that Jump Packs are the realm of the Blood Angels. That's why they get Assault Marines for Troops and almost all their units can be equiped with a Jump Pack. I was looking at it more from a narrative point. Allowing company vets to have jump packs was a way of show they were taking the steps or participating in the final rites of joining the Ravenwing. Second, the fluff for the company vets says they are a group made of vet sergeants from the company or other companies. I guess the vet squad from the 10th company doesn't have jump packs? However, it was your editorial note that I think is most important to point out, and one that I agree with completely. That is why I would like to see an all terminator army or all bike army stay exclusive to the Dark Angels.
• Ravenwing Command Squad - This point was perfect, and I love it. I'm fielding a Ravenwing Command Squad today because of what you said. Looking at the two closer, I can't really say much. All three command squad are the minimual number, but the Ravenwing command squad is 6 points cheaper. Personally, I would like the option to add guys for all three command squads.
• Regular Chaplains as elites - I would argue that we do or could have many chaplains. Any time I've read something or seen a picture about Dark Angels there's a chaplain somewhere. I think GW was thinking of going this way since the regular chaplain is not a memeber of the Inner Circule.
• Deathwing Knights - I suggested the weapons options as a counter point to the reduction of points. If I can't get Deathwing Knights cheaper can I at least get some weapon options. It is the price difference that is problematic. It's hard to argue taking Deathwing Knights when for just 10 more points I can get Str 8 AP 2 all the time with the same armor save and invul. Put that on top of that what you pointed out, Deathwing squads can hold objective and have a Cyclone missile, the argument becomes harder.
• Vet sergeants with special wargear - For me, it's a hard sale to pay 10 points to get +1 to leadership and +1 to attack. That's one extra attack that is more than likely going to a model with 1 wound. A regular sergeant is just as effective at killing a 1 wound model and 10 points cheaper. Toss in Grimm Resolve and the +1 leadership is equally a non-issue. Now, if I were able to get an Auspex, Combat Sheild, or Infravisior, for example, when I purchased a vet sergeant, then it might cause me to pause for a moment and really think about it.
• Fliers - There are numorus threads going about how poor fliers are vs how good they are. Personally, I like fliers. I want to use fliers, and I like the Nephilum. It's the Dark Talon that has me stumped. I personally haven't tried the Dark Talon yet, so I can't say much. However, it's weapons payload leads something to be desired. As for all armies having 1 fighter and 1 transport, I just think that makes sense particularly for space marines. All our tanks are a rhino, transport, with guns shoved inside.
• Land Speeder Vengence - Your points for improving it I think are spot on. For a 140 points, I'm getting a Land Speeder Typhoon with plasma cannons, which is how I would model. If you could re-roll Gets Hot because of interal cooling and made it AV 11, I could understand the larger model, and be more inclined to buy it.
• Apothicaries - I agree that the Apothicaries replacing their weapon has me scratching my head. I can understand losing the power fist for the Deathwing apothicaries, but losing a weapon for the power armor apothicaries?
• Company Master on bike - I really have no problem with this, and as you pointed out, it does fit the fluff. I mainly would like it in order to create my own Master of the Ravenwing and narrative that went with. You're right though. This issue doesn't make the codex "unperfect".
• Servitors - I've never actually played with servitors or techmarines for that matter. However, how techmarines are presented in this codex I'm actually leaning towards taking them. I cursious as to what loop holes that would open up though as I really can't think of them. Then again, I can honestly say may brain doesn't think in terms of cheese, at least I'd like to think it doesn't.
• Asmodai - I would love to talk to the developers about him. As you point out, now there would be a good reason to choose between the two, but at least let us keep the option of have two close combat weapons. And for pitty sakes give the man a gun! It's on the model!

[Upstartes]

The reason a Company Master needs to be able to take a bike is that not everyone using the Codex intends to play Dark Angels. Some intend to play a successor chapter. Those chapters should have options for biking masters that aren't Sammael. In my mind, fluff is the reason that the codeex NEEDS a bike-capable master. Not DA fluff, but successor fluff. That's where the army list falls down in several ways, I think. The list should have had more successor HQ options, like the Blood Angels book does. At least one successor named character. It's not a huge thing, but it's a thing.

[Azoriel]

The reason a Company Master needs to be able to take a bike is that not everyone using the Codex intends to play Dark Angels. Some intend to play a successor chapter. Those chapters should have options for biking masters that aren't Sammael. In my mind, fluff is the reason that the codeex NEEDS a bike-capable master. Not DA fluff, but successor fluff. That's where the army list falls down in several ways, I think. The list should have had more successor HQ options, like the Blood Angels book does. At least one successor named character. It's not a huge thing, but it's a thing.

 

Looking at the trend of things, I'm suspecting the reason they denied us a Company Master on bike was to avoid HQs with artificer armor and T5.  (I would've at least liked the option to field a Company Master on bike with normal power armor though.  =(  Jetbikes are cool and all, but so is having alternatives.)

[Tiger9gamer]

 

The reason a Company Master needs to be able to take a bike is that not everyone using the Codex intends to play Dark Angels. Some intend to play a successor chapter. Those chapters should have options for biking masters that aren't Sammael. In my mind, fluff is the reason that the codeex NEEDS a bike-capable master. Not DA fluff, but successor fluff. That's where the army list falls down in several ways, I think. The list should have had more successor HQ options, like the Blood Angels book does. At least one successor named character. It's not a huge thing, but it's a thing.

 

Looking at the trend of things, I'm suspecting the reason they denied us a Company Master on bike was to avoid HQs with artificer armor and T5.  (I would've at least liked the option to field a Company Master on bike with normal power armor though.  =(  Jetbikes are cool and all, but so is having alternatives.)

If that was true, why can my Terminator chaplain be in wall of shields? O.o

[Azoriel]

 

If that was true, why can my Terminator chaplain be in wall of shields? O.o

 

Hm...  An excellent point.  However, the one guy with artificer armor on a bike has a very notable advantage in mobility over 6 termies trying to move in formation.  (One is very good at running people down who lose combat...  The other doesn't even have the option to do so.)  Plus paying for just an artificer armor and a bike is a lot cheaper than paying for a squad of DW knights.

 

(More food for thought: a techmarine is already in artificer armor and can be mounted on a bike.  Perhaps that's simply because you can't give a techmarine stats like a company master has...  Or because the theory I posited earlier is simply incorrect.)