Thoughts on the Deathwing Knights

[Tiger9gamer]

So since the codex dropped, I pretty much used the DWK for every game I played so far. I have to say, they are really hard to put down! in the games i played, they only got completely wiped out by Three Daemon princes  and fateweaver, and an lots and lots of splinter rifles. 6 leman russ's are the only other thing that came close. Besides bad rolling, I'd say these guys have the stuff to stay around. 

 

I also love how they act as a body guard unit for my HQ, making him also T5. Although I know a prescience libby can do the same re-rolling thing, I love putting an interrogator chaplain in with them, giving him The Mace of redemption and crozius. He can help balance the scales against power armor and gives a nice buff to everyone in the squad.

 

The only main problems to me is that the Shield wall can be broken apart after taking so many wounds and bad positioning, and they can’t sweep the guys they chase.

 

what are your experiences?

[Brom MKIV]

I've had some mixed experiences. They are situationally better than assault terminators but still die just as easy/hard sometimes. T5 makes them far more resilient to small arms fire though and their s10 is pretty useful, hell even their mauls are sweet if you play armour 4+ armies like I do (nids crons orks). I don't use an attached IC though so you likely get more millage.

 

I'll say this, I prefer them outside of my deathwing army. Their basically more than 5 terminators in terms of survivability and threat potential, for less than the cost of 5 assault termies which is exactly what I want a single unit of..in my ravenwing.

 

I'll add I haven't had the wall broken yet except by losing too many models. I now think HoW attacks were meant to encourage enemies to charge them and it does along with not wanting them to get +1 att too. sweeping isn't an issue I think matters that much.

[GlauG]

I've had some mixed experiences. They are situationally better than assault terminators but still die just as easy/hard sometimes. T5 makes them far more resilient to small arms fire though and their s10 is pretty useful, hell even their mauls are sweet if you play armour 4+ armies like I do (nids crons orks). I don't use an attached IC though so you likely get more millage.

 

I'll say this, I prefer them outside of my deathwing army. Their basically more than 5 terminators in terms of survivability and threat potential, for less than the cost of 5 assault termies which is exactly what I want a single unit of..in my ravenwing.

 

 

I've only used them in one game so far, but this is exactly what I am thinking...  They make an excellent anvil alongside Ravenwing Knights, and indeed a VERY resilient fire magnet, especially if you manage to keep them within 12" of the Standard of Fortitude.  If you go for a Turn 2 DWA, you can drop them right in the face of the enemy within 6" of a Ravenwing Teleport Homer of some flavour.  Also, Maces combined with the Toughness debuff from Rad Grenades is lovely for denying FNP on other Marines and ID for characters, if that is an issue for you normally.  I have a RW Command Squad to carry my Standard of Fortitude, and unless I am certain they will survive, I don't risk them in CC, freeing them up to plink a grenade for the DWK instead.

[elphilo]

I really like them. I think their look and fluff are awesome. The only thing that I dislike about them is that in a competitive environment they are kind of meh. I want to run them in a tournament list but then I start looking at the Ravenwing Black Knights and I have to bring those over the Deathwing Knights. I haven't played against MEQ with DWK, but on paper the RW Black Knights seem far superior. 

 

I really want to play with these guys more but the more I make lists the more they become some of the first things I cut. I guess I need to just suck it up and play with them more, but so far there are better things in the codex to take. Which is really unfortunate :(

[Brother dean]

... and fluff are awesome.

And it is nice to see some "Circles within circles" get reflected in the rules in that the "knights" know more than the line DW/RW.

 

I havent used mine yet as I dont have them painted yet but it is good to hear that they actually work on the table.

[Tiger9gamer]

Well, I think it's one of those things that look worse on paper than in the game. Although my favorite video game critic said "Paper is a flimsy thing. It's not that strong and can go see through if you rub grease on it", seeing it in game is really fun to watch!

[AngelVeto]

As someone who has taken at least 5 knights in every game since the codex I can attest to their high level of awesome-sauce. I'm in a tournament tomorrow and am packing a unit of 7, for both extra murder and for longer period of t5. First game I played they were charged by two soul grinders, the great unclean one, and a squad of blood letters. So naturally I activated my "suck on this" mode. At the end of the combat all that was left was the great unclean one, and he had taken 2-3 wounds. Next game was against daemons as well and smite saw a blood thirsted and a daemon prince fall. When I played the tau I didn't even bother smiting, as it seemed a bit overkill and the three fire warrior teams they mauled... Sorry, "maced" :) was saving the smite for his shas o or whatever but they never even made it, as his command squad fell to the torrent of fire two full strength RAS pumped out with the SoD nearby.

 

Tl;dr :

Knights are awesome. Use them.

[Tiger9gamer]

Well, I just had an eye-opener this match against a gunline Vanilla marine list. a bit of bad luck saw their land raider bombed and stuck in a crater... they are really awesome, but they can't take 1500+ points of gunfire directed on them X-X

[Brother dean]

What did the rest of your army do?  What else did you take?

 

 

Sometimes you need to roll the hard six and you cant.  Sometimes it just goes bad.

[Tiger9gamer]

Well, took a mechinized list located here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270816-1850-mechinized-green-wing-2nd-try-at-my-favorite-list/

 

 

will write something there, as this thread is for the DWK

[shabbadoo]

I would rather that the unit had big honkin' swords with the same rules, excepting cuncussive which would be replaced with something more appropriate for swords.  Instead of swords we got maces and hammers.

 

Guess who is getting the swords (and who should have got maces and hammers instead). :/

 

As to the unit's effectiveness, DW Knights are effective enough for their points, but not overlay effective (they are after all completely one-dimensional).  Many people have whined about the supposed cheese of this unit, but it can be dealt with.  Eventually they will figure out how.  Even when they do, it is still a tough unit, but don't leave this unit unsupported, or it will be ground down into dust.  For a Deathwing force, I do not prefer to Deepstrike DW Knights, but instead deploy them in a Land Raider with Belial, which will move Flat Out out into position on Turn 1.  That deathstar is accompanied by another deployed Land Raider full of mostly close combat DW Terminators.  In addition to that, reserve forces include a Drop Pod with a locator beacon that transports a Venerable DW Dreadnought armed with a multi-melta, power fist and heavy flamer (for a little up close and personal "shake and bake" action), and two shooty Deathwing Terminator units which will DWA on Turn 2, using either the Drop Pod's locator beacon or Belial to no scatter Deepstrike into a good position for a Vengeance Strike, and subsequent  Assault on the following turn.  That is a pretty simple, but effective strategy.

[Phoebus]

shabbadoo,

 

I agree it would have been nicer for the sword theme to have come through in the Codex and the official miniatures, but is there anything preventing anyone from modeling the Deathwing Knights with swords and saying they count as their standard weaponry?

[Anabis_Xero]

shabbadoo,

 

I agree it would have been nicer for the sword theme to have come through in the Codex and the official miniatures, but is there anything preventing anyone from modeling the Deathwing Knights with swords and saying they count as their standard weaponry?

 

I wouldent have a problem with it, just make sure your opponent knows that thier Knights.  Only issue I see is some super picky TO but if you dont play in tournaments it souldent be an issue.

[Tiger9gamer]

I guess you could, but the maces seem brutal, which fits them :P

 

And yes, it's true. they take 1500pts of gunline firepower about as good as any other Terminator X-X

[Greenstuffjunkie]

My list at the moment has two units of knights, two LRC's, belail and three units of termies, iv'e been told to consider swapping one unit of knights for another scoring unit of termies and i agree but am not sure about switching them for assault termies...

 

I had a shooty unit containing belail in mind. Any thoughts and ideas?

 

...loving the drop pod locator beacon idea but I think if your going for pure deathwing that's the only way of getting more teleport homers and locator beacons on the board, is this right?. Been thinking about it a fair bit before i commit to buying the reat of my list, even been toying with the idea of taking sammeal and a few small units of bikes, Such a shame we can't take land speeder storms... 24" Scout move then a 1st turn deathwing assault pretty much anywhere on the board would be great.

[Brom MKIV]

You cant scout 24" anymore sadly, pretty much killed LS storms. Anyway ravenwing units provide an 18" + models width which is still pretty good.

 

I would not swap DWKs for normal assault termies unless you only play against meq. Tactical DW is the better choice due to vengeful strike, unless they are riding in a land raider in which case you may want to stick with the knights instead.

 

Your correct on the locator beacon, although in which case id be tempted to drop in a dread or two.

 

Thing is I dont think DW needs as many scoring units honestly. The army is aggressive as hell and designed to attack. Between belials ability to slay opposing warlords + hunt, linebreaker and first blood and their ability to deny opposing vps of the same, deathwing starts out ahead. In addition placement of objectives in your opponents side and in proximity to each other means 3 troops choices can be sufficient.

[Cactus]

 

 

 

Thing is I dont think DW needs as many scoring units honestly. The army is aggressive as hell and designed to attack. Between belials ability to slay opposing warlords + hunt, linebreaker and first blood and their ability to deny opposing vps of the same, deathwing starts out ahead. In addition placement of objectives in your opponents side and in proximity to each other means 3 troops choices can be sufficient.

 

You make a good point Brom. The trick of course is to apply that offensive force in the right place. I look forward to trying it out when my Knights and land raider crusader hit the tabletop.

[Brother Immolator]

Had a  few games yesterday 1 vs nilla marines one vs necrons and one vs Chaos.

 

I used the list I posted on Phoebius thread a while back  but I replaced the libby with a term chaplan and a 6 man deathwing knight squad.

 

The marine player was fileding Calgar and an honour guard. The charge was so one sided it was not even fun. And he charged ME. I deepstruck them with the interrogator in the midle giving them all shield lock (remember that he too has inner circle so he too benifits from the T increase).

 

I laughed at four plasma cannon shots and a hail of bolter fire and a couple las cannons. What 3++ cant save T6 will. I lost only one of them due to double ones. Then proceeded to charge them. I activated the maces just because there was no other high profile target at his back lines. They were trying to engage my gunline with a tank blitz of their own and stoped dead in their tracks by my las cannons then the banner ensured I was taking out entire squds, but thats another story. After the rerolls I instagibed everything:D and the axes in the honour guard didnt even manage to swing. T6 WS 5 and rerolls allong the maces are GOLDEN. Then proceeded to murder his devs, turn three he conceeded.

It was a fan list game though not a competitive one.

 

Against necrons I need not even activate their maces since he was fielding warriors and barges, the thing is again T6 is mitigating the hail of fire and I can only Imagine what would happen if they are accompanied by a FNP command squad.

 

Third game was the most interresting. Again I deepstruck against a line of oblitorators support with a 5 man terminator squad in reserves this time around. Only having known that he might try to use combi meltas against my armor I waited and deepstruck turn two near them to take them out since I dont have anything remotely close to CC in this list.So by turn three he had blown two razors and he opted to charge the knights and take his chances since they would charge him if he didnt. He fired the squads two combi plasmas which did jack and then proceded to be maced to death by activating said maces in one turn. His swords did jack and the two axes didnt even swing. By turn six he footslogged a couple of zerker squads (a bit battered because I had blew their transports and hit and runned my RWs two times by now), and took a charge in the face of the knights, killing 3 or 5 of the zerkers and loosing 2 knights to bad rolling. It was bound to happen with all those dice.

 

Overall the unit has a specialised role: To be used as a warlord shield and take out strategically important targets. Whether those are objective holders, Hard hitters or Be used into a counter attack scenario. I can only Imagine the murder they will unleash if they charge from a crusader.

Certainly far from Invurnerable but the increases in stats and stormshields will see them through. Also the mace is far from useless vs power armor. I forgot to use the rule vs the zerkers. What it loses in armor penetration it compensates with pure WS.

[Wraithwing]

How are you making them T6?

 

Might be missing something here...

 

Cheers, 

 

WW

[elphilo]

Overall the unit has a specialised role: To be used as a warlord shield and take out strategically important targets. Whether those are objective holders, Hard hitters or Be used into a counter attack scenario. I can only Imagine the murder they will unleash if they charge from a crusader.

Certainly far from Invurnerable but the increases in stats and stormshields will see them through. Also the mace is far from useless vs power armor. I forgot to use the rule vs the zerkers. What it loses in armor penetration it compensates with pure WS.

This is what I realized after playing a quick 2 turn game on Saturday (we started our 40k game late and had a Pathfinder game on the same day) that this is the point of the Knights. They are that scary unit that you want in your army. After getting a 10 man Terminator squad totally wiped out because I treated them like Deathwing Knights, I will not be making that mistake again. I will always take a unit of Knights.

Oh and Wriathwing is right, they only get to T5. Though it could of been a typo

[Brom MKIV]

Ya T6 might be why they did so well since they are actually T5. That said a plan i have which I havent used yet is to join both my bike ICs to the squad against alpha strike armies and reserve pretty much the rest of my army. Once the unit loses 3 models majority toughness kicks in and the unit will be T6 with 2+/3++ and an eternal warrior character to boot.

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah five sorry guys typo I used it right in the game dont worry. We were cross checking codices the whole time since I am the only DA player in the group and they arent that familiar yet.

Brom MKIV , only the regular chaplain and techmarine from our special chars have not innercircle rule so everything else you join on the unit will benefit as long as you keep em in formation.