Baal Predator vs Standard Predator

[Unbreakable]

I have noticed a lot of BA players on this forum highly recommending the use of Baal Predators, I was wondering if they would be better suited over the the standard predator.

 

In my army I generally take two auto cannon with lascannon sponson predators.  The rest of my 1500 point list is usually something like this.

 

Librarian

 

Sang Preist

 

2x 10 man jump assault squads

 

5man scout sniper squad

 

Plasma honor guard or DC bolter squad in drop pod

 

Storm Raven

 

Would it be worth swapping out the longer range preds for some baals and see how they play?

[Chaplain Admetus]

Much like the inclusion of practically any unit in any army, it depends on the rest of your force rather than just slapping together a compendium of what are generally considered 'the best' units when taken individually. With your list, I would retain the heavy preds as you're severely lacking in anti-armour capabilities (this does depend a little bit on your assault squad gear; if they have melta then the problem is lessened). With Baals instead you'd hose infantry but be pretty weak to armour, as you're now relying on lucky rending from the assault cannons or plasma-ing things on a weaker armour facing, meaning the honour guard aren't doing their actual job. Auto-las predators are awesome at transport-popping and reasonable at medium armour (anything up to AV13), leaving your assault squads free to take on the remnants, whereas Baal predators are better for ripping through infantry and solid for low-armour transports, but I wouldn't put much faith in cutting through anything stronger than AV11, above which you start needing 6s on that assault cannon. They're used for very different things and going from what you say you use, I'd say that the long range predators add some much needed punch to your army, but by all means give the Baal a try - if you do though, make sure you have enough anti-armour otherwise you could find yourself in trouble against mechanised forces.

[Unbreakable]

Both my assault squads have 2 meltas, sarges are just equipped with storm shields and bolt pistols to soak up challenges and protect the preist and librarian with axes.

 

Dropping the las preds would indeed decrease my anti tank a fair amount, would just leave the storm raven and 4 melta guns. I could always drop out the honor guard / death company and run something like 2 baals and 1 Pred or 2 baals and a devastator squad?

 

I actually own the 2 baals but have rarely used them so am trying to think of some way of fitting them into a 1500 point list. 

[Brother Maikel]

Here's a look at the math.

 

Assault Cannon: 4x S6 AP4 Rending Twin-linked BS4 shots
4 * (.67+(.33*.67)) = 3.56 hits

 

AV         10     11    12    13    14

Glance   .59   .59      0   .19   .19

Pen     1.18   .59   .59   .39   .19

 

Dual Lascannons: 2x S9 AP2 BS4 shots

2 * .67 = 1.34 hits

 

AV         10    11    12    13    14

Glance   .22   .22   .22   .22   .22

Pen     1.11   .89   .67   .44   .22

 

 

As you can see there isn't much difference, mathematically speaking, between the Baal's turret and the AutoLas Pred's sponsons.  Add in the fact that there's a decent chance you won't be able to get line of sight from both lascannon sponsons plus you can outflank the Baals which is pretty likely to result in rear or flank shots, rather than front armour, and you're probably coming out just fine in terms of real anti-tank capabilities.  The real tradeoff, as I see it, is whether you're willing to trade 24" of range, +1 to the damage table, and a FA slot for scout, outflank, better performance vs infantry, and a HS slot.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Oh, and never outflank a Baal just because you can... I keep doing that and it keeps biting me in the posterior....

[Unbreakable]

Thanks for the math, they are surprising closer then I had thought. Of course the auto cannon can also be useful at taking out low armour transports. Think i'll run a couple of Baals and see how it goes, unfortunately I haven't found a way of running the 4 preds  in a 1500 list without dropping the storm raven and I can't imagine a single auto las pred being all that effective. Maybe some devs or attack bikes might fill the role better.

[tomjoad]

I think I've just been rolling Big Guns missions more than average lately, but it's been making me think that having either a Dev squad or a regular Predator would be good. My only HS choice is usually a Stormraven, but taking a Devastator squad (as I'll be doing in my game tonight) would give me a scoring unit to camp my homefield objective in 1/6th of missions (that have been more like half of my missions the past few weeks).

[Ushtarador]

I can't imagine a single auto las pred being all that effective

 

I'm not so sure about that. The autolas-pred has a very narrow optimal role (killing vehicles with AV<13). Against heavy vehicles, the autocannon is useless and multimelta-attackbikes do a much better job, and against everything else the baal is better, so you run out of good targets quite quickly even with a single pred.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Slightly off-topic, I've been having decent success in my last two games with a lascannon/missile launcher dreadnought. Optimal role is taking down mid-light vehicles, but having that extra frag missile template as well as something that can wade in and kick teeth if it really needs to has been fairly useful. Added to the fact that it looks pretty innocuous, but is more than capable of being a thorn in the side of most armies.

[knife&fork]

Being able to outrange just about all good anti AV fire (that isn't mounted on a flyer) is what pushes me towards the auot-las predator. It synergies well with my pods as the opponent has to send something way back on the board (away from the rest of my force) if he wants to deal with the predators. 

[SamaNagol]

DA tri-las Preds got way cheaper at 140pts. May be worth allying one of those in if you are running a list with a Librarian and Tactical marines in already

[redhorse]

I my self have little experince with any predator other than the Baal. I usually supplement my anti armor with devastators or multi-melta attack bikes(sometimes both). I'm rarely let down by the baal, the amount of dakka it kicks out is awesome. Sometimes it will pop a tank. The best instance I can think of was a time I held it in reserve, outflanked and managed to destroy a Vindicator by hitting its side armor. On another note, I have found the Baal to be great at targeting flying monstrous creatures due to the sheer amount of shots it can dish out. 

So I say, one Baal and one other predator would go great with your list! Just use it well, I often try to use it to soften up a squad before sending in another unit to asualt said squad. 

Red Horse

[knife&fork]

DA tri-las Preds got way cheaper at 140pts. May be worth allying one of those in if you are running a list with a Librarian and Tactical marines in already

 

It's not fast, that's huge in my book and one of the best reasons to take BA preds.

[Unbreakable]

Being able to move 12" and still shoot 2 lascannons at full BS is great. Iv had good success using a pair to take out maulerfiends and the like early in the game before they do any damage. Although thinking about it now when the preds do survive till late game they end up much less affective as im targeting infantry. Baals could have much more impact in the closing turns providing they survive. I'll try some games with 2 baals and one of each pred to see how they perform.

 

Out of intrest knife&fork, what are you using in your pods?

[SamaNagol]

Personally I would take Vindicators before HS Predators.

 

But they are all tools for a job, and if you synergise those tools then you will have a good list

[knife&fork]

Being able to move 12" and still shoot 2 lascannons at full BS is great. Iv had good success using a pair to take out maulerfiends and the like early in the game before they do any damage. Although thinking about it now when the preds do survive till late game they end up much less affective as im targeting infantry. Baals could have much more impact in the closing turns providing they survive. I'll try some games with 2 baals and one of each pred to see how they perform.

 

Out of intrest knife&fork, what are you using in your pods?

 

It varies, but there's always 3 frag cannon dreads and a 10 man DC in there somewhere. 

 

Late game there's always something to do for the preds. They can take snap shots on enemy flyers, shoot any remaining AV or force cover saves / LOS! rolls on characters. 

[Drunken Angel]

Agree with Knife and Fork fast is very very good in 6th.  Dont ignore the last an final role of a shot up Baal it has AV13 front armour can move 18 inches and can ram stuff well enough to blow it up 18" = 6 +3+1 = 10 thats only needing 3's to pen most AV 12 armour

[Khorneeq]

Drunken Angel

You cannot perform a tank shock and move flat out in a single turn.

I loved tank shocking with fast vechicles but now it's so much harder with all this new restrictions

[JamesI]

Personally I would take Vindicators before HS Predators.

 

But they are all tools for a job, and if you synergise those tools then you will have a good list

I agree here.  Vindicators for Heavy and Baals for fast.  I don't use normal preds much, prefer the # of shots from Baals.

[Israfel]

The Baals are prone to take more role in our armies if the Deamon Codex becomes popular, the lesser deamons are more numerous but also more squishy against torrent.

[knife&fork]

I'm not so sure about that. Anything that forces a lot of saves is going to be good but the short range of the Baal makes me think that the points would be better spent on squadrons of dual HB speeders.

[tomjoad]

HB are much less killy, as well as being less versatile. Consider that a TLAC is averaging over 3 hits/turn and that these hits are wounding on a 2 in nearly all instances. A pair of HB will average 4 hits, but wound on a 3, and have no value against vehicles or high toughness models and MCs. We obviously sholdn't be counting on the rends to save us, but it is a real advantage that a HB does not share.

 

Also, bolter fire will wreck a speeder, while plasma guns can barely scratch a predator. Well worth the points in my estimation.

[knife&fork]

To make the most of a Baal it must get within 24" of it's target with a 6" move. The speeders on the other hand only need 36" with a 12" move. That's quite a difference in mobility and what can keep them out of the 24" dangerzone. It also makes trading scout (and outflank) for DS less of an issue. Not to mention skimmers can pretty much ignore any terrain that would slow down or block the predator.

 

Speeders aren't exactly tough but at least they've got the built in jink that gets even better when night fight is in effect. 

 

When it comes to the ability to force a lot of saves (or glances on weak AV) you get more shots for your points with speeders. HBs might not be as multipurpose as ACs but on the right platform they definitely have a role to fill. 

[Jolemai]

Agree with Knife and Fork fast is very very good in 6th.  Dont ignore the last an final role of a shot up Baal it has AV13 front armour can move 18 inches and can ram stuff well enough to blow it up 18" = 6 +3+1 = 10 thats only needing 3's to pen most AV 12 armour

Fast vehicle, so why only 18"?

Drunken Angel

You cannot perform a tank shock and move flat out in a single turn.

Why not?

[Khorneeq]

Jolemai

Rulebook on pg.85 answers Your question