How could Horus possibly 'neutralise Plalanx'?

[Kol Saresk]

"Examined clinically, the battle breaks down into into these five distinct actions, although these are obscured by the sheer size of the Chaos horde of which some part or other was continually in action for the duration of the battle. The five stages are as follows:"

 

It then goes on to list the stages as

 

1.)Planetfall

2.)The Advance to the Palace

3.)Defence of the Outer Wall

4.)The White Scars Attack!

5.)The Inner Palace

 

But by your logic, not only were the Word Bearers and Night Lords not there, the orbital battle never happened, for some reason Horus would think that none of his allies were on the way to Terra, Sigismund's battle of Champions never happened, Marduk doesn't recall being PO'ed that he was stuck at Calth while the rest of his Legion was at Terra, Talos doesn't recall the Tenth Company being at Terra and that the Siege of Terra IA article lists every single little detail that happened in the Siege of Terra down to the eyewitness accounts that it says were unbelievable due to the trauma suffered by the witnesses. Does that sum it up?

[Vesper]

 

the orbital battle never happened

There was an orbital battle ? Where ? You know where the fleets enventually clashed ? Was it at the borders of the system or right above Terra ? Maybe in another system weeks before the siege. We know nothing about it, so it actually never happened at this point in time, yes.

 

 

 

Horus would think that none of his allies were on the way to Terra

Or he just thought that the WB couldn't arrive in time, or that they wouldn't be enough, or something along those lines. Because if the 9 traitor legions were there, tell me why Horus would've feared the arrival of the DA and the SW.

 

 

Sigismund's battle of Champions never happened

That's nothing meaningful, that is for sure. We're talking about a battle that is incredibly huge. Sigismund doing stuff is ridiculously out of context. I'm sure there's a lot other loyalists and traitors that went on breathtaking killing spree during that perticular battle. But who cares ?

 

 

 

Marduk doesn't recall being PO'ed that he was stuck at Calth while the rest of his Legion was at Terra, Talos doesn't recall the Tenth Company being at Terra and that the Siege of Terra

Oh, meaningless parts of legions, like squads or even companies sure could've ended on Terra. But once again, just like with Sigismund, if that wasn't the case nobody would've missed them, because who cares about one or a hundred astartes when you have several thousands of them in every corner.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah, and here I thought your argument was that the IA article listed everything, not that it covered generalities and left holes in what exactly happened at Terra. :)

[Vesper]

And I respect your belief that the presence of some legions is nothing more than a detail not worthy of a single line.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

 

Sigismund's battle of Champions never happened

That's nothing meaningful, that is for sure. We're talking about a battle that is incredibly huge. Sigismund doing stuff is ridiculously out of context. I'm sure there's a lot other loyalists and traitors that went on breathtaking killing spree during that perticular battle. But who cares ?

 

 

This might be me being biased but, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Sigismund kill both Khârn and Lucius during the battle? Considering these two are some of the most dangerous traitor marines in 41m it's a fairly impressive achievement. Yes Loken gave both of them a kicking but after the Emperors Champion both of them needed direct intervention from the gods to live again.

[Vesper]

I wasn't aware of that. But according to the fact that both of them are alive, I doubt they were actually killed.

And Lucius isn't really dangerous, as pretty much everyone and his mother has defeated him with relative ease.

But yet, I haven't read any detailed report about Sigismund killing those guys. And even if he did (unlikely when you read about Khârn on Terra), that changed nothing at all to the battle (hence why it's meaningless).

[Olis]

This might be me being biased but, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Sigismund kill both Khârn and Lucius during the battle? 

 

Where did you see this? What's the source? I'm only asking because, last I knew about this, it was still firmly in fan speculation territory. :huh:

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I realise since as it's still being written so all of this is in flux. As much of a mug as he was/is Lucius is still a superlative swordsman as far as I can remember only Loken and Tavitz ever managed to beat him in a fight. If I remember the stories correctly Slannesh enjoys Lucius' last moments that much he revives him letting him become 'the Eternal' and Khârn is carried dead back to the stormbirds by his brothers and somehow he starts to breathe again.

[Marshall Bretton]

well given Khârn and lucius both exist in 40k i rather doubt that, he may have beaten them though i suppose, although i think Khârn would fight to the death at least

 

 

we do need to remember how big an impact tiny events can have on a battle, even on this scale

 

sigsmund kills a captain, that captain never makes it to his unit for an assault, that assault goes ahead without him and fails because his replacement isn't as good and can't react to the situation, the assault failing means that a wall is not taken and the main assault fails. the traitor forces in that section are devastated and take 80% casualties, these casualties mean that another assault is delayed because it takes more time to muster enough forces for it. as a result the palace is not taken by the time Horus hears the other loyalists are on their way and has to make his gamble with the emperor

 

small actions like that can have a big impact

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Where did you see this? What's the source? I'm only asking because, last I knew about this, it was still firmly in fan speculation territory.

In all honestly brother I don't remember it may have been fan speculation which has got mixed in with the 'facts' in my head. Considering he was charged with hunting down and slaying the enemies champions it seems likely that at least one of those two warriors would be a target. Also, as I heard it, Kharns section in the Butchers Nails where it says he counted both Sigismund and Amit as brothers and when it came to slaying them at the Imperial Palace he would regret those two the most was a direct hint about a fight between him and Sigismund.

[Vesper]

I realise since as it's still being written so all of this is in flux. As much of a mug as he was/is Lucius is still a superlative swordsman as far as I can remember only Loken and Tavitz ever managed to beat him in a fight. If I remember the stories correctly Slannesh enjoys Lucius' last moments that much he revives him letting him become 'the Eternal' and Khârn is carried dead back to the stormbirds by his brothers and somehow he starts to breathe again.

The "death" of Lucius was at the hand of another Emperor Children Lord Commander (Cyrus, IIRC). That was after the Heresy and was is first defeat. [HEAVY HH SERIES RETCON INBOUND]

Since the HH series Loken, Tavitz and the RG guy defeated him (with relative ease, as I said), the last one even "killed him". So no, he's clearly a crap when it comes to fighting.

 

 

 

we do need to remember how big an impact tiny events can have on a battle, even on this scale

sigsmund kills a captain, that captain never makes it to his unit for

an assault, that assault goes ahead without him and fails because his

replacement isn't as good and can't react to the situation, the assault

failing means that a wall is not taken and the main assault fails. the

traitor forces in that section are devastated and take 80% casualties,

these casualties mean that another assault is delayed because it takes

more time to muster enough forces for it. as a result the palace is not

taken by the time Horus hears the other loyalists are on their way and

has to make his gamble with the emperor

small actions like that can have a big impact

Not when you have titans, spaceships and entire legions shooting at you.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

Sigismund's battle of Champions never happened

That's nothing meaningful, that is for sure. We're talking about a battle that is incredibly huge. Sigismund doing stuff is ridiculously out of context. I'm sure there's a lot other loyalists and traitors that went on breathtaking killing spree during that perticular battle. But who cares ?

This might be me being biased but, unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Sigismund kill both Khârn and Lucius during the battle? Considering these two are some of the most dangerous traitor marines in 41m it's a fairly impressive achievement. Yes Loken gave both of them a kicking but after the Emperors Champion both of them needed direct intervention from the gods to live again.

At the moment, it is supposition. What is known is that he donned black armor, was called the Emperor's Champion and went single combat with every single champion of the horde that answered and he never lost. It is unknown if Khârn was part of that number. Lucius, I don't recall anything saying he did die at Terra, but at the same time nothing says he didn't. Meaning that just in the case of the Word Bearers and Night Lords, no one can say or the other about it except that he was there.

 

@Vesper: You actually proved my point the moment you admitted the IA article of the Siege has holes in it. No one can say one way or the other on the numbers of either Legion. All is known is that they were there. The numbers can't be spoken of until the Siege is written out, whether it be by Black Library or Forgeworld. Any assumption until then is just that, an assumption.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

My bad Lucius front he first falls to another Lord commander post heresy as for Khârn;

 

'When the battle ended with the loyalist forces victorious, Khârn lay dead upon a mound of corpses at the walls of the Inner Palace. His fellow World Eaters carried his corpse away with them as they fought their way back to their ships. Once on board they discovered that by some dark miracle, he still lived. Whether Khorne himself breathed life back into the berserker's body or whether the relentless clamour of battle revived his blood-lusting spirit remains a mystery, but since the Heresy Khârn has survived the bloodiest battles to the current age and never came so close to death again.' From Lexicanum which is apparently citing a page in the 4th edition of the Chaos Codex.

[Vesper]

 

@Vesper: You actually proved my point the moment you admitted the IA

article of the Siege has holes in it. No one can say one way or the

other on the numbers of either Legion. All is known is that they were

there. The numbers can't be spoken of until the Siege is written out,

whether it be by Black Library or Forgeworld. Any assumption until then

is just that, an assumption.

The IA about the siege shows us what happened. It's purpose isn't to tell the story of every single marine with a bolter. Even the HH series will not. So it will have holes too.

The IA is all about the meaningful moves of the battle those of the legions. We have, for example, the Emperor Children attacking the humans of Terra. And can you tell me what the Night Lords were doing if they were there.

Nope. Because : they weren't there or they weren't at full legion strengh (which would explain why the IA does not bother mentionning they were there). But if all traitor legions were at Terra, quaking with fear thinking about the arrival of the DA and the SW, then that would be supremely ridiculous. But hey, it's the HH series, everything could happen (especially ridiculous things).

[Kol Saresk]

And that's an assumption. Everything points to the Word Bearers being there, but they aren't mentioned either. The Iron Warriors attack a fortress-monastery of the Imperial Fists, but nothing is made of that battle so I assume its a draw. The Custodes aren't mentioned in the Siege so I guess they weren't there since the daemonic incursion underneath the Palace wasn't mentioned either.

But we do know they were there. Just as we know Sevatar and the First company were at Terra along with the Tenth Company. How many more or how many less, cannot be guessed.

Same as the Word Bearers. We know that every Word Bearer that followed Lorgar was at Terra. But not how much of the Legion. We know that at least individuals of the Sons of Horus participated even though the Legion was kept at a reserve but how many individuals is unknown. The IA article does not mention an orbital battle but it does mention Dorn using the Sky Fortress to teleport to one of the space ports.

But see, that's the thing. We are covering generalities, not specifics. The Blood Angels are only mentioned when they retreat further into the Palace and Sanguinius holds off the World Eaters while fighting Kha'banda. So did they do nothing the rest of the Siege? Or did they just not do anything worth mentioning? Or perhaps their losses at Signus Prime were so devastating that the Legion wasn't worth mentioning until that happened?

EDIT: Oh, and they were fighting the Blood Angels before the retreat into the Inner Palace.

Of course, it might have been that both Legions were oh so apparently understrength that they weren't worth mentioning.

[Vesper]

And the IW were scattered in every corner of the galaxy by then. Yet, Perturabo and the IW are in the IA.

You try to prove NL and WB were at the siege since forever and you try to prove you point with Black Library heavy retcon stuff. In the IA, they clearly weren't there. The only way to make Black Library's stuff believable (read "not silly") is to consider their retcon is more about tiny parts of said legions that weren't worth noticing in the IA, which purpose is all about the general depiction of the battle.

 

 

 

 

Or maybe all traitor legions were on terra and were afraid of the DA and the SW. Then Uriel Ventris launched a daunting attack on the Vengeful Spirit, killing Abaddon with his bare hands. Lucius kills himself with his own sword, but Slaanesh brings him back to life because that made him laugh.

Finally, after hours of a terrible duel, Horus and the Emperor can't take the upper hand on each other. Roboute Guilliman, bored to death, throws the emperor out of the way and kills Horus (and Sanguinius who was watching) with his unstoppable might. The end.

 

EDIT : actually, not the end. The emperor, proud of Guilliman, tells him that he is his spiritual liege. But then, Guilliman suckerpunch the emperor and says : "No. YOU are my spiritual liege".

And then the emperor is put on the golden throne.

[depthcharge12]

Slightly off topic to the already off topic discussion....

 

Don't you guys think that the amount of ships present in orbit plus aforementioned starfort(s) and kingships might have cause some tidal changes (whatever is left on terra at this point) or weather issues due to the large mass of said ships?

[Olis]

Slightly off topic to the already off topic discussion....

 

Don't you guys think that the amount of ships present in orbit plus aforementioned starfort(s) and kingships might have cause some tidal changes (whatever is left on terra at this point) or weather issues due to the large mass of said ships?

 

Don't forget the orbital plates above Terra, too. ^_^

 

And no, they wouldn't. Why? Because by the time the Emperor had ascended to power on Terra, there are no oceans. Boiled away from previous wars and such, iirc.

[Octavulg]

As I pointed out before, Vesper, IA: WB mentions the Word Bearers being present at the Siege with Lorgar.

 

Since the DA and SW would have been fresh forces attacking them from orbit, I'd be a bit worried about their arrival, too.

[Vesper]

As I pointed out before, Vesper, IA: WB mentions the Word Bearers being present at the Siege with Lorgar.

 

Since the DA and SW would have been fresh forces attacking them from orbit, I'd be a bit worried about their arrival, too.

Why ?

9 legions' fleets against 2. It's only a matter of seconds.

[Wade Garrett]

Nine Legions that have already purged a significant portion of their strength by slaughtering those members who refused to turn, plus the various mishaps they've undergone along the way (The Emperor's Children and Iron Warriors took casualties during their little jaunt to the Eye of Terror in Angel Exterminatus, the Night Lords took a shellacking from the Dark Angels in the Thramas Crusade, the Thousand Sons got mauled on Prospero, the Word Bearers had significant numbers diverted to Calth, and so on).

[Octavulg]

Nine that have been beaten up by the Imperial Fleet and Terra's surface defenses. 

[Wade Garrett]

Jumping back to the original thread topic for a second, but during the Siege, doesn't the Dark Mechanicum take control of Mars? If they have the Forge World of Forge Worlds AND it's orbital defense grid, that might explain how the Warmaster's crew was able to sail past the Imperial Fleet and Phalanx and hit Terra directly.

[Kol Saresk]

Last I heard, Mars was still in a state of civil war and a lot of their technical systems had been taken out by the scrapcode IIRC.

 

Vesper, Actually I've only been doing it for the past week or so. Hardly forever. O_o

 

And as I recall, the original source for the Word Bearers not being at Terra was the Collected Visions, a Black Library publication. And both IA articles said they were on their way. That was a GW publication. Now, later BL publications are saying they were there. Since the fluff encompasses GW, BL and FW publications, meaning they come together and the inconsistencies are written out. There is no inconsistency between the Legions heading towards Terra at an earlier period in the Heresy and then being at Terra in the culmination of the Heresy.

 

The fluff points to the Siege of Terra being so wearing on the Traitors that two reinforcement Legions were enough to drive Horus to action. So which is worse, eight Legions(the Alpha Legion's IA said they weren't there) that were worn down, or, six Legions with two enemy Legions that were "fresh" coming to Terra but Horus conveniently forgets that he also had two Legions on the way and acts his endgame?

[Vesper]

 

Vesper, Actually I've only been doing it for the past week or so. Hardly forever. O_o

That is not what I meant. Forget it.

 

 

Nine Legions that have already purged a significant portion of their

strength by slaughtering those members who refused to turn, plus the

various mishaps they've undergone along the way (The Emperor's Children

and Iron Warriors took casualties during their little jaunt to the Eye

of Terror in Angel Exterminatus, the Night Lords took a shellacking from

the Dark Angels in the Thramas Crusade, the Thousand Sons got mauled on

Prospero, the Word Bearers had significant numbers diverted to Calth,

and so on).

 

The fleets of two mauled legions meet the fleets of nine mauled legions.

A matter of seconds.