++2014 Community IA Creation Project++ COMPLETE!

[Marquise]

No objections here - as this is a community project I'll go with what the majority agree with.

[Octavulg]

I still deeply despise the metabolism-based Curse idea. Can tolerate it if it's not some variation of "slavering monsters", but not a huge fan even then.

[Firepower]

"Deeply despise" is a bit strong doncha think?

I still like the metabolism idea, but the Black Ragey end result is a lousy idea. The other option I put forward on page 2 is sort of meh, but not as bad.

But I think there is a lot of potential there for a relatively simple premise. The issue doesn't have to be so literal as making the marines really hungry:

1- The marines's organs, possibly specific ones, could burn out without regular injections administered by limited supplies in their armor. Chemical treatments are a constant factor in any Astartes' life to keep things running as they should, so this isn't very far out there. Again, this can lead to forced limitations on deployment times. It could also have some fun, specific effect on the marine if the organ burned out by the metabolic overtaxing was something particularly tender or important. The Oolitic Kidney getting eaten up/damaged by the overburning metabolism would case all sorts of issues, given its role in keeping all the other organs working and its role as a..well, kidney.

2- Instead of damaging organs, the heightened metabolism may eat up muscle tissue. It can be kept almost entirely in check with regular injections, but the degeneration is never entirely stopped, and grows stronger with age. So ever so slowly, the marines wither away. A bit too much like the Nurgley Blood Angels fro mteh Dornian Heresy though, I think.

[Marquise]

Let me kick this out there and see where it goes:

 

Tampering with the Canis Helix results in the stabilizing of the Wulfen aspect but only if the marines partake of "sanctifed flesh" on regular basis, which becomes a nescessary Chapter Rite. The "sanctified flesh" must be prepared by the Apothecaries and the Rite would obviously be performed/overseen by the Chaplains. Without this the marines start exhibiting the Wulfen aspect.

 

The curse could be a two-fold problem. The first problem would be that prolonged deployment would deny the Rite being performed regularly OR combat loss of the Apothecary and/or the Chaplain would curtail the Rite for periods of time. The curse itself would be the second problem: eventually it becomes evident that the marines need higher and higher quantities of the "sanctified flesh" during the Rite but the Wulfen aspect still becomes more pronounced in each subsequent generation as the tampering degrades and the true nature of the Canis Helix asserts itself with a fury.

 

This of course would result in some "slavering monsters" over time which the Chapter could deal with in a number of ways. The two that come to mind are: 1) The monsters get put down. 2) the monsters could be used as shock troopers and the slain are either burned on the field where they fall or are removed from the field to cover their exsistance.

 

I think this would work for either a loyalist or renegade Chapter.

[Octavulg]

I like wasting away more than the other options (lots of fun with Vikings not wanting to die in bed). I'd still like something wolfy-without-monstery most of all, though.

[Firepower]

Yeah, degeneration into flesh eating monsters has been done...like, a lot. There is even a chapter called the Flesh Eaters

Is sticking with the Viking theme a good idea though? That seems to be more of a Fenris influence on the Wolves origin than something inherent in the gene-seed. Or are the Wolves to be aware of the Chapter's creation and assist in its development?

I think limiting the nature of the curse to wolf-centric phenomenon is going to hamstring the whole shebang though. The Wulfen already pretty much cover that. It's sort of why I push the metabolism issue- trying to remove the potential for savage flesh hungry monsters from teh Wolf gene-seed results in ironic insatiable hunger that withers the marines into ineffective husks or results in inevitable organ failure/instability.

[Octavulg]

Well, what's wolfy besides being werewolves? There's the pack mentality, the senses, the environment tolerance, the howling (please no), territoriality...

[Firepower]

There's the pack mentality

Hive mentality maybe?

the senses

Slaanesh. Not much better than rage=Khorne in my opinion.

the environment tolerance

Huh?

territoriality...

They pee on every planet they come across. Mine! Mine mine mine! Woof!

[Octavulg]

Hive mentality maybe?

Could do something like that, maybe.

Slaanesh. Not much better than rage=Khorne in my opinion.

Not as obvious, not done nearly as often, doesn't lead to everything being painted red. Infinitely better.

Huh?

Wolves tolerate a variety of environments and climates well, at least generally. Of course, power armor accomplishes that pretty well itself.

They pee on every planet they come across. Mine! Mine mine mine! Woof!

I dunno what you'd do with it, it's just an option.

One other possibility occurs: hybridization with coyotes. Coyotes have smaller, less stable packs, are weaker, dig bigger dens, are more cunning but less intelligent. If wolves are hunters, coyotes are raiders. So we have a chapter that's more coyote-like than wolf-like.

[Firepower]

I just think the senses-Slaanesh bit is equally simplistic to the anger-Khorne link. It's not done as often, but it's every bit as simplistic.

I like the idea of the pack mentality thing. That could be worth exploring. Perhaps it could be something similar to the issue with faith/loyalty being bred into Lorgar's sons, except more splintered. As in, there's a natural inclination to follow, but they 'choose' their leaders based on pack like infighting, pecking order establishment, and brow beating. Sounds a bit Orky, actually, but the premise is still worth a bit of pondering.

The coyote analogy makes it sound like they are actually wolves crossbreeding with actual coyotes I think that might be pushing the theme a bit far.

[Octavulg]

I just think the senses-Slaanesh bit is equally simplistic to the anger-Khorne link. It's not done as often, but it's every bit as simplistic.

Simple is not necessarily bad.

The coyote analogy makes it sound like they are actually wolves crossbreeding with actual coyotes biggrin.png I think that might be pushing the theme a bit far.

In a shocking twist, talking about the animals sounds like talking about the animals. More that an actual chapter could be more Coyote-y and less Wolf-y. Not sure exactly how to justify it as a curse - could just argue that it's an attempt to weaken the pack bonds of the wolves while maintaining other aspects.

[Firepower]

I just think the senses-Slaanesh bit is equally simplistic to the anger-Khorne link. It's not done as often, but it's every bit as simplistic.

Simple is not necessarily bad.

True enough, but I personally I feel it would be like reading an Emperor's Children 2.0 story. Simple is fine, but I prefer simple and inspired

In a shocking twist, talking about the animals sounds like talking about the animals. More that an actual chapter could be more Coyote-y and less Wolf-y. Not sure exactly how to justify it as a curse - could just argue that it's an attempt to weaken the pack bonds of the wolves while maintaining other aspects.

If we were going to go that route, I would suggest jackals rather than coyotes. Much more independent, the sharpest senses in the canine world, and all around unpleasant little buggers.

I have coyotes around here, and I hate them. No coyotes!

But to address the foundation of the point, is a pack-mentality really much of an issue/feature with the Wolves? It always seemed to me to be more of a theme-y way to organize the chapter rather than an actual psychological disposition.

Are we not gonna explore the pee-on-every-world angle?

[Octavulg]

The corruption of the Emperor's Children takes about two lines in their IA!

The line between wolf-men who are in packs and wolf-men who are just organized in them would seem to be pretty fine to me. In any case, the effect need not be genetic so long as the cause is.

[Ecritter]

Not involved but I'll through this out there .. Hyenas.

[Firepower]

Hmm..thought:

 

Metabolism screw-up results in the withering effect on muscle tissue.  The elders would normally be the ruling/leading class of the Chapter, the strongest and wisest that give the Chapter purpose and keep everyone in line.  As they either commit honorable suicide or degrade into waifs, the leadership of the Chapter disintegrates, and the pack mentality latent within the Wolves gene-seed begins to appear.  The strongest of the younger, rasher Marines attract followers, and the Chapter splinters into territorial/competitive packs.

 

Whether this eventually turns to them becoming broken warbands of renegades, or simply tears the Chapter apart from the inside unto destruction, or is potentially relieved/held together by some saving grace is up in the air.

 

So a flaw that arises from tampering with the gene-seed results in revealing an unrecognized and unanticipated flaw within the original gene-seed.

[Marquise]

To what extant would the withering go? I keep picturing the marines with either the physique of Golem from Lord of the Rings or withering away to the point of basically being animated skeletons shrink-wrapped in skin.

[Firepower]

Pretty much, yeah. Like practically mummified-looking before the body just gives out altogether.

[Firepower]

-pokes the thread to check for signs of life-

[Marquise]

Sorry, I've been doing some reading while mauling/mulling things over.

 

The withering aspect of a high metabolism works for me. If we continue with this, I would agree with Jackals being used - more specifically the Black-backed Jackal (Canis mesomelas) as they are the most lightly built and agressive of the species and are known to attack prey many times their weight. They also have more quarrelsome intrapack relationships (this could be interperted as inside the Squad itself, rivalry between in a Company, and/or between Companies).

 

I can also agree with the Chapter devolving into a greater pack mentality with the younger marines as the officers and leaders, especially at the Company and Pack levels. The Chapter Master position could be determined by a more agressive "alpha dog" challenge system.

 

To incorporate the whole vikings not wanting to die in bed thing into this, the Chapter "advancement" could be organized like this: Scouts, Tactical, Devastator, Assualt (which would consist of the older marines who would be leaner and probably meaner).

 

Are we still leaning towards Sons of Sköll as the Chapter name? I'm just wondering because it would still fit by changing Sköll from a wolf to a jackal.

[Firepower]

I really like the name, but it sort of hinges upon whether or not we decide to incorporate the Viking theme along with the wolf/canine theme. It is a very cool name and the idea behind it is awesome. But I think the Viking theme is specifically a result of Fenrisian culture, and it would be very strange for that to go into the successor along with the genetic idiosyncrasies. So at this stage, I would vote against it.

I think if things really devolve into a feralistic pack mentality, that alone should be the 'culture,' with only a hint of a preexisting cultural theme. If the Chapter was made to create a more controlled or orderly version of the Wolves, it definitely wouldn't be along Viking themes. More likely it would be created with something akin to a more rigid military and cultural structure, akin to what you would see from typical Ultramarine or Fist successors. If the Chapter was allowed to maintain the wild nature of its predecessor (which begs the question as to the motivation behind its creation) then something more wild -akin to but not necessarily Viking- themes would be best.

There may be a middle ground there, but I haven't thought of it yet.

The idea of the successors being Vikings as well is making me itch at the moment though.

Your idea of Chapter progression brings up an interesting thought. Perhaps as the Marines got older and weaker, they get wilder and more aggressive to compensate. Whether this is to try and maintain alpha dog status or earn an honorable death is up for debate.

As for the name, on second thought, it doesn't necessarily depend on the Chapter having a Viking theme. It may be something like a christening or parting gift from their predecessors, a label by Viking themed predecessors on their successors with an as yet undefined identity of their own...

Also, I appreciate that people are thinking and mulling and plotting and scheming and pondering and such before they suggest things. My own style is to just brain-dump, come back a few hours later, and see what still sounds good. Rinse, repeat :D

[Conn Eremon]

You know, you could combine the two ideas into one. The Sons of Sköll are created from tweaked Space Wolf gene-seed, the tweaking being done with the intention of neutralizing or limiting the effects of the Canis Helix. Though initially showing promise, over time this has started to show a deeper impact upon the Chapter. First is the hunger. The Sons of Sköll have a heightened metabolism, beyond that of normal Marines. As the Sons age, they grow more emaciated (though I'd limit how emaciated, they should still look like over-hulked giants) and find it harder and harder to satisfy this basic need. Rising along with their metabolism is their senses. Colors become more vivid, shapes are sharper, sounds more vibrant and louder. Their senses of smell can all but overwhelm their hungered souls.

 

It'd be a great set up for a fall to Slaanesh. Not only can they be promised that their new found loyalties will enable them to enjoy their heightened senses, rather than be tortured by them, but that they can be released from their rigid code of honor in order to finally satisfy themselves.

 

I do agree that a Black Rage inspired cannibalism is over the top and I'm not a fan of it. But upping the metabolism and giving them the additional pressure of basic hunger, coupled with their overly heightened senses, can combine to make something more detailed and interesting than choosing one or the other.

[Firepower]

Hrmmm. Perhaps they do turn to Slaanesh from sensory overload, but not a plethora of heightened sights, sounds, colors, and such. Maybe they just become unable to focus on anything but the pain of their bodies consuming themselves.

After that, perhaps they find a cure. Perhaps the Apothecaries fix things. After feeling brutal pain their entire lives, they may find the sudden lack of such an extreme sensation to be a very uncomfortable void. Enter Slaanesh.

After that the old sadist would certainly have fun reawakening the higher senses locked away in their bodies when the Canis Helix was watered down.

Or perhaps the Chapter is so haunted by the pain and disgrace of the withering that they decide to fix things, but fail. Maybe they reawaken the Helix themselves in an attempt to make the pain seem trivial, or just to spitefully reverse the original re-engineering of the gene-seed in its entirety.

To be wracked with pain and then throw heightened perception on top would be equivalent to catapulting yourself into Slaanesh's bedroom during happy hour.

[Conn Eremon]

To clarify the idea I was making, perhaps the intent of the tampering of the Space Wolf gene-seed is to remove the Canis Helix's flaws, while keeping its virtues. In other words, lose the wulfen while keeping the wolf-like senses. That's the intent, though obviously it'd be far too over the top to have them succeed at it. The heightened metabolism could be a byproduct, issued on by the larger amount of energy the tweaked Astartes physiology would burn in a shorter period of time. It'd be the first known flaw. The second known flaw is that this doesn't exactly stabilize. It doesn't balance out. As the Marines age, their senses heighten even further and their bodies burn even more energy in lockstep with the senses.

 

I do like the idea that this error is fixexd, and it's the absence of what was once torturous but is now unbearably gone that leads to their downfall, rather than the curse itself. However, how would they cure it? By returning to the canis helix's original processes? It'd fit with any Rune Priest's vision of the Sons diverting too far from the ideals of Russ, as a catalyst that inspires the apothecaries to work toward such a goal.

[Firepower]

As the Marines age, their senses heighten even further and their bodies burn even more energy in lockstep with the senses.

Ohh, a gradual increase of the senses..hm. If the senses became too sharp, that too would become a debilitating source of pain (a pin-drop-sounds-like-a-gunshot sort of thing). They would be forced to choose between allowing every brother to slowly age into worthlessness or tampering with the gene-seed to cure the Chapter...

Actually, if the gradual increase in sensitivity results in an unpleasant, horribly painful sort of consequence prior to Slaanesh's appearance, I wouldn't have the same issue I originally did with it, and I think it would make the metabolism issue almost redundant. I'd be pretty cozy with using the increased senses approach all on its own if it was 1) unpleasant and 2) something they ran away from rather than indulged in.

Let it be the absence of the sensory overload that sends them running to the one power that can fill the void again.

However, how would they cure it?

I hadn't thought that far ahead, though it's a damn important question. In the most extremely desperate of possibilities, they may need to get their hands on some unmoddified Space Wolves gene-seed....

It'd fit with any Rune Priest's vision of the Sons diverting too far from the ideals of Russ, as a catalyst that inspires the apothecaries to work toward such a goal.

I don't understand this sentence. Can you reprhase?

[Conn Eremon]

Let it be the absence of the sensory overload that sends them running to the one power that can fill the void again.

Precisely. Something different from the typical "I like it. MORE!" Slaaneshi convert. The Chapter is literally shell-shocked. They've gone through a lifetime of madness in the form of light and sound, followed by their sudden absence. The whole Chapter is that soldier stumbling from where the bomb knocked him, his sergeant's screamed orders coming through garbled and muted. Well, not the whole Chapter. The oldest ones, sure.

I hadn't thought that far ahead, though it's a damn important question. In the most extremely desperate of possibilities, they may need to get their hands on some unmoddified Space Wolves gene-seed....

I can think of only two places that would have that. Mars or Fenris. Which one the Sons go for would explain a lot about them.

It'd fit with any Rune Priest's vision of the Sons diverting too far from the ideals of Russ, as a catalyst that inspires the apothecaries to work toward such a goal.

I don't understand this sentence. Can you reprhase?

Step 1: The curse's weight upon the Chapter begins to become unbearable, a tipping point is right around the corner.

Step 2: Enter the Rune Priest and his vision that was mentioned earlier in the thread as the tipping point.

Step 3: With the Chapter's approval, the Apothecaries begin working to find a release from the curse.

Step 4: Enter Mars and/or Fenris, Apothecaries are successful.

Step 5: Chapter becomes listless as they discover how quiet and colourless existence is.

Step 6: Enter temptation and fall.