++2014 Community IA Creation Project++ COMPLETE!

[Firepower]

I hadn't thought that far ahead, though it's a damn important question. In the most extremely desperate of possibilities, they may need to get their hands on some unmoddified Space Wolves gene-seed....

I can think of only two places that would have that. Mars or Fenris. Which one the Sons go for would explain a lot about them.

Not necessarily. You can find gene seed stocks on Mars and Fenris. You can find gene-seed samples in Space Wolves...well, dead Space Wolves.

Of course that would need no small amount of desperation, an 'at all costs' attitude (amusingly a trait in the Wolves themselves) by the highest ranks of the Chapter, and quite possibly a few leaders that are already having the first inklings of treacherous thoughts. And of course it would have to be done without the Wolves getting wise, or else that would pretty much be the end of it there an then.

Is the vision by a psycher really necessary though? It seems the Chapter's leadership could recognize the need for a decision on an obvious threat the their survival and continued service without being told by a clairvoyant deus ex machina.

[Conn Eremon]

The vision isn't necessary, no. It was just something mentioned in the thread that is easily connected with other points without really harming any other points. Since this is a communal effort, that was good enough reason for me to bring it back up and include it.

 

That said, I'd rather the Sons don't act as scavengers in that regard. At least not unless they're rejected by Mars or Fenris. Gene-seed stocks would be the best thing for what the Apothecaries are attempting and they would definitely try that avenue first. Scavenging the dead would definitely be the act of utter desperation. You don't get that desperate unless there are absolutely no other alternatives, right? 

 

You mentioned that some of the leaders might have treacherous thoughts by then. Are we going that route? Are the Sons going to be already close to the edge, regardless of their biological issues? For me, I'd prefer it to be something unexpected, their fall. That the Chapter be a truly loyal Chapter like any other. That the fall comes because it is the only avenue they can see in which they can avoid madness and destruction.

[Octavulg]

In other words, lose the wulfen while keeping the wolf-like senses. That's the intent, though obviously it'd be far too over the top to have them succeed at it.

Why?

The Cursed Founding comes with genetic instability, general misfortune and the terror of the masses. Everyone ends up sucking.

Fixing geneseed flaws feels tricky at best. Doing so in already-extant Marines seems like the sort of thing that would be impossible. I mean, the organs are in and having an effect. Tinkering with that would be really, really tricky.

A Marine wasting away who finds every sensation to be agony seems like the sort of thing that will drive someone to Slaanesh no matter how hard they try. Plus, then you get skeletal giants crazed with supernatural Chaos hunger who twitch when a pin drops.

[Firepower]

Octavulg, on 29 Mar 2013 - 14:43, said:

Plus, then you get skeletal giants crazed with supernatural Chaos hunger who twitch when a pin drops.

I like this, but just pressing the little green button in the corner seemed insufficient.

The main issue I had, to reiterate, was with the heightened senses = drug-addict like rush to Slaanesh plot. That's always the go-to route with him. But if every bit of their existence slowly degrades into inconceivable pain, old Slaany could easily work his way in just as well, without requiring a significantly more circuitous plot.

The next question would be a matter of how the turn to Slaanesh progresses. In fits and starts, in one fell swoop via some Deal with the Devil ultimatum/offer, in insidious whispers by Him/Her into the ears of the leadership or Chapter as a whole?

[Conn Eremon]

Why?

 

The Cursed Founding comes with genetic instability, general misfortune and the terror of the masses. Everyone ends up sucking.

 

Fixing geneseed flaws feels tricky at best. Doing so in already-extant Marines seems like the sort of thing that would be impossible. I mean, the organs are in and having an effect. Tinkering with that would be really, really tricky.

 

Uhm. Why? Because it's the Cursed Founding, so there wouldn't not be experimentations, right?

 

Obviously tinkering with the genetic tissue that makes Marines what they are is tricky, and it would seem to be impossible in that day and age, but the whole point of the Cursed Founding, as far as I'm aware, is that they tried it anyways. I know that Lexicanum isn't the end-all, be all of sources, but it seems to validate my premise:

 

 

 

The focus of the Twenty First Founding was perfecting and removing deficiencies in flawed geneseed

 

 

If the Sons are a Space Wolves successor of the Cursed Founding, then they were founded with the purpose of fixing Space Wolf gene-seed. I was just throwing it out there that their specific intent when it came to the Sons was to remove the threat of the Wulfen while keeping the advantages of heightened senses, but only because that would seem like an obvious thing they'd want to do. Keep the good, remove the bad. Since the Twenty First Founding is called the Cursed for a reason, they would obviously fail in some manner or the other, which we have already illustrated with the idea of metabolism, over-stimulation or both being their curse.

 

Well, okay, re-reading what I quoted from Lexicanum, it does say 'focus.' So there is the possibility of a Cursed Founding Chapter that wasn't experimented upon, as it doesn't outright say 'all of them.'

[Octavulg]

Obviously tinkering with the genetic tissue that makes Marines what they are is tricky, and it would seem to be impossible in that day and age, but the whole point of the Cursed Founding, as far as I'm aware, is that they tried it anyways. I know that Lexicanum isn't the end-all, be all of sources, but it seems to validate my premise:

There's a difference between messing with the geneseed then implanting it and messing with the geneseed in extant Marines (which seems to be what you're suggesting for the Ad Mech to do in order to 'save' the chapter).

 

Having a Curse is fine. The Ad Mech fixing that Curse in Marines already suffering from it doesn't seem workable.

 

As to what the Cursed Founding is about:

 

From C:UM, p 13: "Every surviving Chapter of the [Cursed] founding is affected by spontaneous mutation of the its gene-seed. ... Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic ideosyncracies, mutations which strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival.

 

Lexicanum is likely wrong - the Cursed Founding was about making better Space Marines (how does bursting into flames solve anything?). This may have included fixing flawed geneseed, but it was the largest founding since the Second - it had plenty of room to do other things as well.

[Firepower]

Is it possible to end up being a puppet of Slaanesh without enjoying enthrallment?

I was just thinking there might be a group that never come to enjoy the pain of their ravaged bodies and supercharged senses (further enhanced against their will by Slaanesh's influence), who go to desperate measures to shut out the stimuli; sewing their eyes shut, cauterizing their ears shut, dosing themselves up with the strongest sedatives they can find to no effect. Their brothers toss them into the battlefield, and they go mad trying to destroy everything around them, just to make the noise and lights and shocks of the battlefield go away...

[Octavulg]

The one consistent upside of Chaos is that you enjoy the process of losing your humanity.

[Firepower]

Until you decide it's not so cool. Then your god(s) turn you into spawn as punishment. But yeah, just wanted to know if that was the only exception :)

[Marquise]

This is awesome, I step away to do some more reading & thinking, and we get new blood!

 

Heightened senses: I like the idea but think they would be an advantage initially, as it would make them better hunters/warriors. The heightened senses wouldn't be a flaw until the metabolism/withering starts - it would start with the Sons feeling the higher body temp usually associated with a greater metabolism, then seeing/hearing/smelling their bodies burn up and wither; taste would be effected through smell (picture taking a whiff of bleach and then eating shortly after - I know don't like it). From that point on the metabolism and heightened senses sync together and both get worse and worse as the Sons get older, making the older marines leaner, meaner and quicker to irritate (my mental picture is of those news segments where a young guy goes to rob a store but is thwarted by the WWII vet beating on him - only now the WWII vet is worse in the beating because his migraine won't go away). It would explain further the squad progression I mentioned before.

 

Loyalty: If the Sons fall to Slaanesh, I would prefer it to be because of a whispered promise that never gets fulfilled rather than enjoyment of the heightened senses. I'm thinking something like this:

The Apothecaries seek to undo the flaws of the Chapter's gene-seed but fail in every attempt to do so. With each failed attempt, Slaanesh (having devised a twisted and perverse plan) whispers that it can cure the flaws, promising the "pleasures of a normal exsistance". Slaanesh never really intends to keep the whispered promise as it is all a lie intended to bring about the fall of the Chapter and keep them enthralled. There are a couple of ironies off the fall: 1) not only do they remain lean and mean but they become even more physically corrupt as Slaanesh "blesses" the Sons with mutations and 2) the pack mentality becomes stronger and more divisive: some Sons come to enjoy the flaws and others do as Firepower suggested (sew eyes shut, etc because they don't enjoy the flaws).

[Conn Eremon]

 

Obviously tinkering with the genetic tissue that makes Marines what they are is tricky, and it would seem to be impossible in that day and age, but the whole point of the Cursed Founding, as far as I'm aware, is that they tried it anyways. I know that Lexicanum isn't the end-all, be all of sources, but it seems to validate my premise:

There's a difference between messing with the geneseed then implanting it and messing with the geneseed in extant Marines (which seems to be what you're suggesting for the Ad Mech to do in order to 'save' the chapter).

 

Having a Curse is fine. The Ad Mech fixing that Curse in Marines already suffering from it doesn't seem workable.

 

As to what the Cursed Founding is about:

 

From C:UM, p 13: "Every surviving Chapter of the [Cursed] founding is affected by spontaneous mutation of the its gene-seed. ... Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic ideosyncracies, mutations which strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival.

 

Lexicanum is likely wrong - the Cursed Founding was about making better Space Marines (how does bursting into flames solve anything?). This may have included fixing flawed geneseed, but it was the largest founding since the Second - it had plenty of room to do other things as well.

 

Aha. There's the confusion. No, that's not what I was suggesting. Yeah, the Ad Mech would be involved prior to the Chapter's official Founding, tinkering with the gene-seed that'll be used for it, but certainly not afterwards. It was mentioned by someone else that Chapter Apothecaries would be involved in curing it the side-effects of what the Ad Mech did long ago.

 

As for the Cursed Founding, making better Space Marines is the same thing as experimenting with them. You're introducing new changes to the base template in the attempt to improve upon it. Which, technically could be done outside of genetics as well. Changes to conditioning and recruitment stock could also work. And then things like bursting into flames were the unintended side effects, the curses, that appeared after the actual experimentation. Well, I assume after. I don't see any Ad Mech looking at a test subject bursting into flames and going 'Brilliant!'

 

Marquise: But wouldn't Octavulg's point still remain valid, that by joining Slaanesh you're kind of just going to enjoy it anyways? I like the idea, and I could see how it'd be like that in the very beginning, when those closest to the brink can't wait for Slaanesh to go through with its promise, but eventually they'll come to love it as a true Slaaneshi would, right? 

 

Well. Slaanesh is all about experiences. Its followers are all about increasing their experiences every time they get bored with what they have, culminating eventually with some pretty messed up freaks with some crazy urges. What if the experience the Sons are thriving for is that of silence? And those Marines that most desire it could mutilate themselves to have something of it? I can see a Marine standing in a crowd of shocked, still and silent mortals, looking like a heroin addict who just got his first fix in far too long, only to explode into a rage when a small child lets loose a sob, killing everyone.

[Firepower]

Bliss in silence, an experience that they crave more than life itself, but can never reach. Even if all around them goes quiet, even with the hum of their armor gone and powered down, they cannot stop their own heartbeats from pounding in their ears like a jackhammer, or their own breaths from clawing at their ears, or the ceaseless hollowing burn of their withered flesh, and so they go mad, clawing and ripping and blasting apart anything in reach, before turning on themselves in a self destructive frenzy. Each raging outburst is worse than the last- when they cannot find the ecstasy of silence, they find what succor they can in slaughter and pain....

Or, you know, they do as most Slaaneshi cronies do, and come to find pleasure in the agony of their existence and the stimulation of their once tormentingly sensitive and now infuriatingly desensitized perception. Either one works for me.

As for the curing by Apothecaries, the problem I see (and I think Octa is pointing out) is that operating and modifying a gene-seed already implanted in a Marine wouldn't make much sense, especially compared to tinkering with gene-seed waiting for implantation. By doing the latter, they would see pretty quickly in the next generation that the experiment went wrong.

[Octavulg]

As for the Cursed Founding, making better Space Marines is the same thing as experimenting with them.

I didn't say they didn't experiment, I said it wasn't about fixing flawed geneseed...

 

I wouldn't rule out most of the curses being intended effects. The Ad Mech are...weird.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm not sure that anyone mentioned tweaking gene-seed already implanted. Or at least, I didn't. Or I don't think I did. Well, if I did, or implied something along the lines, I didn't mean to. What I thought I was saying was that 'gene-seed was being tweaked.' The gene-seed I was referring to I didn't really think about where it was at the time it was being worked on, but would certainly make more sense to be stored gene-seed not yet implanted than gene-seed already implanted. Maybe it was my mention of test subjects. I meant that to mean subjects who have been implanted with already tweaked gene-seed to see what the effects would be.

[Marquise]

Sorry folks, I might not have carried through with my thought.

 

Octa's point was valid and I didn't mean to come across as I was saying otherwise; I was merely trying to concieve a better storyline than "we have heightened senses and have become addicted to them so we are automatically Slaaneshi".

 

With the divisive pack mentality I was thinking that the fall would create two factions:

"Faction A" would be those Sons who come to thoroughly enjoy their heightened senses and wouldn't want Slaanesh to fufill the promise. This faction would probably lean towards being Noise Marines and Veterans.

"Faction B" would be those that still thoroughly hate their heightened senses and would sew eyes shut, burn ears off, etc in the attempt to evade or lessen the heightened senses (a losing battle of course because they would still experience what is happening bodily). They would hold out hope that Slaanesh fulfills the promise and would endulge in self mutilation or other experiences (like the ones mentioned by Cormac and Firepower) which may not be directly linked to the heightened senses. The tactical, assault and devastor (or CSM equivilents) would be comprised mainly of this faction.

 

The marines of each faction would look at the opposite faction with disgust and/or an elitist attitude, which only furthers the disiveness and pack mentality.

 

IMHO, this all avoids the creation of a complete Chapter of Noise Marines, which would happen if every marine fully embraced their heightened senses.

[Octavulg]

The thing is, expecting ascetism from the god of pleasure seems kind of illogical.

[Firepower]

Is he the god of pleasure, or the god of sensation and excess? Pleasure is the lure, but sensation is the fuel. By which I mean that Slaanesh feeds on any extreme stimulation, be it pain or pleasure or fear or what have you, but the way he urges on the rank and file followers is by granting pleasure for any extreme sensation.

With this proposal of tormented rather than indulgent marines, it becomes a catch twenty two. The sensation the marines strive for would be a singular moment of zero sensation, which, if it were even achievable (it's not), would itself bring a sensation of the most exquisite bliss- the lure for Slaanesh to dangle in front of the Chapter.

Who doesn't love a good C-22?

[Marquise]

Pleasure is one aspect of Slaanesh; other aspects include greed, lust, excess, perfection, hedoinism and pain.

 

Ascetism (the abstinence from various worldy pleasures) wasn't applied to Slaanesh the god. Nor do I think it was applied to the marines, as the ones that loath their heightened senses aren't abstaning (the self-imposed restraint from indulging in bodily activities that are widely experienced as giving pleasure) from the heightened senses as they don't give pleasure to these marines. Firepower caught on to the intent of these marines: striving for the unachievable singular moment of zero sensation - I just picture them indulging, as well, in other excessive pursuits that are more pleasing to them.

 

This type of divisiveness can be applied to the withering of the body: some marines come to enjoy the state, while others still loath it and seek the unachievable perfection of body.

[Octavulg]

And expecting Slaanesh to facilitate a removal of sensation seems very, very illogical. It is, as a rule, a bad idea for Marines to act in a completely illogical fashion.

[Firepower]

I'm still quite confident that it can work, and work well.

But at this point, I think I'll just pocket that idea for a personal IA some time in the future.

We already have a lot going on here, and it's important not to get too carried away with 'Oh this would be awesome!' features.

We have a Cursed Founding and a Space Wolf successor, which in itself is pretty odd. We have metabolic overdrive that makes the marines burn away into husks. We have senses that grow so strong as to find a drop of rain agonizing. We have the Chapter breaking down into packs when the eldest become too pained and weak to guide them. We either have a miraculous cure that leaves them hollow and longing, or a desperately pained plea for relief, either of which leads to Slaanesh. Speaking of which, we should go back to discussing that last sentence.

But yeah, there's already a lot going on here. Best to focus on what we already have (or kinda have) and start hammering out an outline.

On that last subject, I propose a blending. They turn to Slaanesh (how is up for discussion). Slaanesh says 'Sure, I'll help with that. No more pain. Promise.' And so he deadens their senses. It is then that they feel the void, and the longing, and turn to their supposed savior in a plea for the bliss of sensation once more. And so Slaanesh pours it on, his devilishly circuitous plan complete, and he has himself a new chapter of debaucherous loonies.

[Conn Eremon]

So Slaanesh grants them the silence they crave, only to have the sudden loss deadening the world to them so thoroughly that they quickly begin to crave its return. That does seem like an all too easy band of Noise Marines like what Marquise mentioned. I'd like it if we could come up with a means that doesn't transition them so fully into that bracket. Personally, I still like the idea that they're seeking to decrease the power of their senses and I feel that it can fit with a Slaaneshi faction, the absence of sensation still being a form of sensation. If that's out, I'd still like us to go with something more than a craving for their heightened senses.

[Marquise]

Although I like the idea, I think I'm going to shy away from ideas about the chapter going to Slaanesh because I foresee repeat posts of the current problem.

 

I don't see a miraculous cure being too workable. Any attempt the apothecaries make in this direction are doomed to failure; the chapter, for good or bad, is stuck with the gene-seed it was created from/with. The other problem I see with is that if the chapter succeeded they would attract too much attention (good and bad) for achieving what others have attempted and failed at.

 

I like Cormac's herione addict imagery from a previous post. I think that is workable without going to Slaanaesh.

 

Just a few thoughts before I jump off to play with cookie-cutters.

[Firepower]

I can see a small compromise: drugs. If the Chapter turns to (likely extreme) sedatives to try and deaden their senses and pain, that puts them in the market for Slaanesh, and results in a "chasing the dragon" sort of spiral. In all likelihood, the focus changes from sedatives to narcotics, to 'cope' with the heightened senses rather than numb them.

Octa's not wrong in that the rule of thumb with all cultists of Slaanesh is that they come to associate any extreme sensations with pleasure, and each time they need more. So the standard for Slaanesh is already very much of a drug addiction story. It doesn't mean every marine that goes this way becomes a Noise Marine, but it does mean that they seek out sensation, rather than the lack of it.

The difference for this current idea would be an association of pleasure with numbness rather than sensation, which is both good and bad for Slaanesh. Ecstatic rapture is something Slaanesh is all about, but having it come from a singular source rather than an insatiable need for new, wilder experiences is very not-normal and counter to Slaanesh's nature.

But then, a spiteful god can have interesting results. Generally when worshipers turn their backs on their deities, they are punished in awful ways. Let's say some, but certainly not all of the Marines do not wholly accept Slaanesh's gifts, unable or unwilling to find pleasure in their agony. If they did gouge out their eyes, burn their ears and noses shut, and pump themselves full of sedatives, a vengeful Slaanesh would quite possibly just pour on the pain, mutating them with new eyes, unbearably sensitive flesh, and the like, which they may or may not mutilate as well.

A key note though is that actual rejection of Slaanesh once he's in their heads is very unlikely, and would pretty much definitely not be a Chapter-wide phenomenon. For the 'asceticism' (not a good word for this I think) to be a plausible Chapter-wide theme, Slaanesh would have to be getting off on it. Constantly bestowing the self destructive sedative addicts with more sensitive organs would be the ideal route: he gets to feed off the sensations of their self mutilation, their pain, and the pleasure they feel when trying to escape it.

I still think the Catch Twenty Two can work, and I'd be glad to go ahead and write up a mini-draft or a mini-fluff piece to show it. It is, by definition, logical, and depends entirely on the logic being a paradoxical but sound 'trap' for the victim.  But it also has to be written well enough that there is no logical way out, and no real chance to avoid falling into the trap to start with, which is the real challenge of a catch twenty two.

But also, as I said previously, it's not generally a good idea to make a Chapter unique in every single aspect. We already have a lot of stuff that is very unorthodox. The more you pile on, the more an IA will push away from plausibility or cohesion with the setting (what most folks call "breaking lore"). I genuinely like making unorthodox fluff and seeing what rules I can bend into something new, but you have to draw the line somewhere and know when to hold back.

Aside from that warning note on my part, which is somewhat contradicted by my interest in the topic at hand, it seems like Octavulg is currently the only one against the idea.

[Conn Eremon]

I'll admit, my lack of interest in Slaanesh and the Noise Marines might have colored what I said about it earlier. I agree we shouldn't try to make the Sons too much a special snowflake, as that inevitably ends up terribly, though I would prefer to keep them from just being basic Noise Marines. But hey, communal effort and all, I'll bow to the majority's decision.

 

Marquise mentioned tossing Slaanesh out the window for now, and exploring additional options. I'm all for that, if for nothing else to explore multiple scenarios to make the initial concepts work.

 

The idea of utilizing drugs to limiting effects is, I think, superior to the idea of Apothecaries somehow stumbling upon a cure, not the least of which because of the severe unlikelihood of the latter.

 

However, I am still intrigued with the idea of exploring the catch-22.

 

So really, I'm up for exploring any of the avenues recently suggested. Yep, I'm helpful.

[Firepower]

Assuming that Slaanesh, or the attention of any Chaos god, does not actually have to be deliberately invited, but rather weedles its way into vulnerable minds, here is a framework for the catch-22.

 

Marines' agony grows.

 

Marines use sedatives.

 

Marines now in pain, and beginning to abuse drugs.  

 

Wild swings in the sensations from extreme to numb, and the effects of pain and drugs weakens the minds of the Marines and invites Slaanesh's attention.

 

Slaanesh subtly influences the inherent gradual ramping up of sensitivity of the Marines.  Does not reveal his influence.

 

Marines resort to even stronger drugs.  

 

Swings between bliss of relief and agonizing sensitivity grow much wider as both drugs and their condition increase in severity.

 

Slaanesh begins to truly expose himself, whispering promises of relief.  

 

Some may accept at the drop of a hat, but likely few.  Potentially killed by the other packs as the Chapter becomes aware of their exposure to corruption.

 

Marines do all they can to avoid the pain that Slaanesh craves, using far too much sedative far too often.

 

Bliss of sedation only feeds Slaanesh: sensation in any form, even pleasure derived from numbing, is fuel.  Marines don't realize this.

 

Trap complete.  The only two options now are to surrender to Slaanesh and embrace the pain, or use increasingly stronger drugs and doses, which itself is just a slower decline towards damnation.

 

For extra giggles, Slaanesh grants his gifts (extra sensitive mutations) to those fighting his influence with drugs, making it all the harder to block the pain, and forcing them to desperate acts of self mutilation: also fuel for Slaanesh.

 

End result, everyone eventually falls, in one way or another.  Those that surrender are Noise Marine-ish, in that they embrace any and all extreme sensations.  Those that refuse eventually drug themselves into madness and total, complete numbness.  The latter play the role of the tormented drug addict: they can no longer feel anything, no matter how hard they try.  Their depraved attempts feed Slaanesh via their victims, even if they feel nothing themselves.