++2014 Community IA Creation Project++ COMPLETE!

[Legate Bene Barek]

Hey all. I think when it comes to deciding how or why the Marines fell is the most important aspect here. After all these are Astartes, they just dont fall to Choas on a drop of a dime. I dont want us to rush the how or why just to get moving (unless we are willing to go back a bit later to fix it). This is what is going to make or break the story.

 

Having said that I now offer an idea. First off I question why the 21st founding? Cause its cursed...to easy an explanation as to why these Marines are cursed (just cause of the founding). How about the 23rd founding sometime around 500M37. The Lords of Terra, after the Abyssal Crusade (in which 30 Marine chapters were judged by Saint Basilicus, who sends them all on a crusade into the Eye of Terror to retake worlds lost to the birth of the Dark Prince---Damn good reason to create a new founding, just lost 30 Chapters) ordain the 23rd founding. There is no Canon based information that I have found regarding this founding, ie. how many chapters or how the chapters were created or who they came from--so it would be easy to implant ours. If from this founding we could include the Taninim Crusade (617M37+) as thier first combat engagement.

 

Second, we adress why they chose to convert to choas rather than suffer with the Imperium. This is by far the toughest choice. No Astartes as a whole is going to just walk up to a Choas God and ask for membership. Remember the Space Wolves (Sons of Fenris) as a whole hate to the core at least the Thousand sons. So, Does it start with the Chapter Master...to easy I think. Maybe with the First Cpt. who may eventually become the CM? Or even better what if it starts with the the Chapter as a whole believing that (like the Templars and thier Champion to some degree) Russ returns in the body of a random chosen brother who leads them to war (Russ said he would return from wherever in time of great need--wolftime). Of course the Space Wolves would not like it and niether would many, if any, other chapters---wont be OK with someone saying they are the reincarnation of a primarch...which would begin to seperate the new Chapter from all others (very important)...maybe even forcing a fight or two with other Chapters. And maybe Chaos is at work there...being not Russ but a Choas lord taking control of said Marine and ect.. This Marine (beleived to be Russ) now in command...maybe acts like old Russ, fighting other Chapters, maybe this reincarnation begins to spin tales of how Russ (He) was really on the side of Horus (which if you read the history, could be true?) maybe even sparking the old flame of hatred for the Dark Angels? If the Marines of this new Chapter believed the reincarnation of Russ to be legit then basically anything he said would be law. And slowly the taint would occur (because in doesnt happen overnight with Astartes). So we could build a backstory of military history, maybe a few battles here and there. A couple scrapes with other chapters or the dreaded Inquisition maybe. The more they are seperated from the Imperium the easier it would be for the taint to occur.

 

Lastly, I was thinking, if we are going to go with a curse of some sort. Go with one more becoming of Russ, quick temper (blind rage of sorts) that kills all thier senses unitl under control, something along those lines if need be. Also why would the Lords of Terra found a Chapter after what happened to the Wolf Brothers...easy enough. The one great flaw of the Imperium is that they have short memories. "What was a problem thousands of years ago (millenium really) could be blamed on numerous problems or short-sightedness, or general lack of ability from those in the past...surely we have become better, those of us here can succeed where others have failed" (would seem to fit the Adeptus Mechanicum to a 'T' really)!

 

 

 

 

Just my two pence on the whole thing.

[Conn Eremon]

1. Cursed Founding because this is the Founding in which 'changes' were made to gene-seed, as far as we are aware. This makes it the perfect Founding for a Chapter where the 'Wulfen' aspect of the Canis Helix is "fixed."

 

2. I think we have the fall occurring initially within the Apothecarion. They are the ones struggling to save their brothers from the side-effects of the gene-seed 'correction.' They are the ones who are failing. They are the ones who, as their failures build, begin seeking aid from any quarter. The ones who find a cure worse than the disease.

 

3. As for the curse, I'm rather fond of it. It's fitting with the idea of attempts being made to fix the Space Wolf gene-seed, rather than exaggerating the errors. I'd advocate against a change, if we are going down the "One Final Product" route. If we do end up branching out to different ideas, I'd be cool with that. I'd also be cool if we kept going with a loyalist Chapter based off of a Native American home world. 

 

Sorry my response is all contrary to yours, I don't mean to sound like I'm just shooting your ideas down.

 

@Olisredan:

I also prefer the latter, just because it ups the irony of it all. They do find a cure, and it does cure them of what ails them. But now that they are caught in the thrall of Slaanesh, the cure becomes a case of sensory deprivation.

 

But perhaps not so far that a Marine dying from a nuclear explosion feels only a light breeze. More like the sights, sounds, tactile sensations all feel . . . muted and dulled. Nothing is as alive as they once were. It's like going from a modern day expensive home theatre to watching black and white videos on a projector. Even though I would be perfectly cool with that, myself.

[Olis]

First off I question why the 21st founding? Cause its cursed...to easy an explanation as to why these Marines are cursed (just cause of the founding). How about the 23rd founding sometime around 500M37. The Lords of Terra, after the Abyssal Crusade (in which 30 Marine chapters were judged by Saint Basilicus, who sends them all on a crusade into the Eye of Terror to retake worlds lost to the birth of the Dark Prince---Damn good reason to create a new founding, just lost 30 Chapters) ordain the 23rd founding. There is no Canon based information that I have found regarding this founding, ie. how many chapters or how the chapters were created or who they came from--so it would be easy to implant ours. If from this founding we could include the Taninim Crusade (617M37+) as thier first combat engagement.

 

The point to this project was to provide the community an example of a chapter that deals with the taboos of chapter creation: A Space Wolf successor and a Dark or Cursed Founding origin. Unfortunately no other founding will suffice due to the nature of the project. That said, I'd recommend holding onto your suggestion for a later date - a different IA could very well use a suggestion like that.

 

Now then, as for how they fall. I think the majority of the discussion up until now has been linked to their mutation/curse, which seems fitting, I think. At the moment I think this course is more compelling than a False Prophet/Russ Reincarnation angle. 

 

Cormac 

I'm glad you agree with me in terms of the 'numbness' that the chapter is seeking to dispel or overcome - at the very start it'd be like someone turning the TV up because their hearing is going.

[Legate Bene Barek]

Cormac, no worries. Thats why we brainstorm.

Olisredan and Cormac, a dark curse chapter doesnt have to be on the cursed founding. And both you guys...still need to take into consideration the fall more. Just because you have bad geneseed doesnt mean you just sign up with chaos. The base theme might be the bad geneseed...but why chaos...just because they offer a cure, no thank you say all space marines. The taint of chaos is a subtle act. Sometimes taking thousands of years to come to fruit. No Marine would go to Chaos just for a cure to something that is dealt with by the parent chapter. They would first seek advice from the SW, then the AMech, then pretty much anyone willing to help in the imperium...hell even xenos tech before ever thinking about chaos. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Nope. So lets flesh out how Chaos gets its hands inside our SM hearts. If you can tell me you honestly beleive a chapter would jump ship for a cure alone...then, well i would have little to offer. Lol

Even if my ideas thus far are not flipping switches. Thats cool. I do however think its got to be more than just a curse. Many chapters after being driven away from the imperium have remained loyal, even with curses. So what makes our chapter different?

[Olis]

Olisredan and Cormac, a dark curse chapter doesnt have to be on the cursed founding.

 

The founding and the allegiance was decided waaay back on page one. It's a course that has been set already.

 

 

And both you guys...still need to take into consideration the fall more. Just because you have bad geneseed doesnt mean you just sign up with chaos. The base theme might be the bad geneseed...but why chaos...just because they offer a cure,

 

I think the details are still being hammered out but, as you stated: 

 

 

They would first seek advice from the SW, then the AMech, then pretty much anyone willing to help in the imperium...

 

Indeed they would. I believe I quoted Gripharius in my round-up post (#172) saying exactly that (minus the SW bit).

 

 

Is the juice worth the squeeze? Nope. So lets flesh out how Chaos gets its hands inside our SM hearts.

 

I concur. Those apothecaries that are searching for a cure wouldn't just fall for a honey pot or a poisoned chalice - the corruption would likely be far more subtle and would likely take a while to take root in the chapter (and that's ignoring the possibility of third party interference). 

 

 

Even if my ideas thus far are not flipping switches. Thats cool. I do however think its got to be more than just a curse. Many chapters after being driven away from the imperium have remained loyal, even with curses. So what makes our chapter different?

 

Having read the Badab books from cover to cover, I quite like the idea of the chapter being driven away by the Imperium. And although there have been cases where chapters that have suffered directly because of the Imperium have remained loyal, there are undoubtedly others that have not. 

[Legate Bene Barek]

Think about fellas...other chapters have curses and are loyal...even severe ones which cost them imperium support stayed loyal...even ones hunted for thier curse stayed loyal...so why not ours? Most chapters have embraced the curse..even going as far to say blessed by the Emperor. ..so why not ours.

If the apothocaries were tinkering...why didnt the chapter master just slapp them around?

Why is our chapter so eager to get rid of the curse and hop into bed with chaos? It cant be simply the curse.

You see what im saying....?

[Legate Bene Barek]

Sorry posted at the sametime....lol

[Olis]

Sorry posted at the sametime....lol

 

Ah, I was about to reply, but if that post was linked to the previous one, then I'll refrain from adding yet another reply. ^_^

[Legate Bene Barek]

Ok, so far, apothocaries did it...nobody stopped them. The imperium pushed them away...which is why they in part chose chaos. Chaos offers a cure...the chaptrr BELIEVES them and bobs your uncle. Is that what we have so far?

 

Ok, so far, apothocaries did it...nobody stopped them. The imperium pushed them away...which is why they in part chose chaos. Chaos offers a cure...the chaptrr BELIEVES them and bobs your uncle. Is that what we have so far?

[Conn Eremon]

Because ours is a curse that kills. That prevents us from doing our jobs. That makes the act of living unbearable even for one of our strength of will.

 

The successful attempt at fixing Space Wolf gene-seed has created an end-product that is basically useless.

 

And yes, the fall will be expanded on. We know attempts to find a cure is where their fall originates, but it hasn't been expanded upon. Not because there's nothing there, but because we are still in the progress of creating it.

[Legate Bene Barek]

But to die in the Emperors name is sublime!

 

Sorry if im being an arse. Not trying.

 

It just seems you guys are to eager to go to chaos. Astartes are not so eager.

 

Curses kill...lots of othrr chapters...so WHY would we be different.

I agree ( of course) with turning to chaos...but why did we? Thats what im working on now...lets flesh it out now. Just saying apothocaries did it, well that sucks. Lets put ourselves in the booys of these astartes and ask WHY...or what would it take to forsake EVERYTHING we believe in and EVERYONE we trusted.

You say the curse prevents them from doing thier job....umm what would going to chaos be...yep not doing thier job.

I think we should start at what it would take to go chaos and then the how and why may present itself.

[Legate Bene Barek]

Like... because the imperium has pushed us away ( due to the curse) we become outcasts...not recieving any help from anyone. Maybe even hunted ( like the rest) so we arent getting vehicles..not getting anyone trained by mars to do upkeep on what few vehicles we have. Having to steal our recruits from different planets...having to fight retreating battles against our brother marines....maybe we turn to xenos tec..maybe not. (All the while loyal) But at some point when we have become so few and so damaged. Thats when chaos pokes its little head out. Maybe at first and second trys we resist...we are after all astartes. Maybe it takes the death of our chapter master from the (insert anything imperium here) to push us to the edge (but not over yet) . Maybe we start rebuilding using whatever it takes...even rogue traders. (All the while chaos whispers). Maybe we start working with planetary gov. Who want to be independant from the imperium and so we protect them they supply us. Maybe from there we erase all trace of the imperium...still somewhat loyal....at least not chaos yet. Maybe a faction (apothos) have come up with a cure they believe will allow us to return to the imperium folds...(of course it wont cause the imperium doesnt work that way...but we are desperate) maybe we try it....whatever it is. Maybe this cure (taint) is what slowly breaks down our resistance to chaos...maybe even something to do with psykers eh?

 

Anyways you get what im saying. All this over the course of a millenia or so.

[Wade Garrett]

Or this Chapter could be like that Company of Black Dragons that splits into a Tzeenchtian warband and a Khornate one in about two weeks in Death of Antagonis.

[Conn Eremon]

You mistake us then. We are not eager for this chapter to join Chaos. It was decided earlier in the thread by the majority that what we wanted to build would end up as a renegade force that falls to Chaos. I myself was an advocate for a loyalist Chapter, but as this is a community-built Chapter, we go with the majority.

 

As for the fall itself, we are not saying "Apothecaries did it." We just haven't gotten to it yet. All we know so far is that it begins with the search for a cure. We don't yet know the journey or the conclusion of that this starts. Because we haven't gotten to it yet, but we will. How it ends up, we don't know. Maybe it does end in the Apothecarion. Maybe it ends with the Inquisition, either a Puritan hunting us or a Radical illuminating us. Maybe it has something to do with the purges of Cursed Founding Chapters the Lamenters allude to but don't elaborate on. Maybe it's from somewhere else within the Chapter, or recruitment world, or a particular battle. Maybe it's something brought into the Chapter from its inception, a diabolical plot that fully intended that the Sons fall. And maybe the Sons fight it, maybe they give in to it, maybe they run from it, hide from it.

 

We don't know yet because we have only just begun creating them.

 

So let's not complain that the skeleton isn't meaty enough, let's add some meat to what is only currently a bare bones idea.

[Legate Bene Barek]

But Wade the black dragons are in whole, loyalists. Even up to (and after antagonis) third war of armageddon.

[Legate Bene Barek]

But Cormac perhaps thats the confusion....i am trying to come up with the meat....i know they are going chaos (end result) now lets start adding the meat...what are we waiting for. So for adding meat....i ask again how did they go to chaos? Lets start from the beginning and try and figure how a loyalist chapter goes rogue then chaos.

 

Thats what ive been about fron the begining. We have to keep it moving....the story.

[Conn Eremon]

If so, then forgive me fore responding irrationally. It seemed to me like you were attempting to advocate change on things we're trying to lock down.

 

If not, my bad. Carry on.

[Legate Bene Barek]

Noooo...im just fleshing out how and why we arrive at ...where we are.

[Malthe]

Current cliff notes:

• Name: Sons of Sköll
• Heraldry: Black Jackal salient on a yellow(?) background
• Founding: 21st (Cursed) Founding
• Training Cadre: White Consuls(?)
• Theme: Viking/huntsmen
• Homeworld: None. Fleet based.
• Culture: Pre-degeneration; Codex standard. Post-degeneration; Pack mentality based upon 'alpha' status (younger and stronger is better)
• Affiliation: Traitoris Extremis (Slaanesh)
• Gene Curse resulting from tampering with gene seed/Canis Helix;

As for the actual effects, we can either go with:

OPTION A

The Hungry, Hungry Wolves

Pros: Skin calcification, heightened agression

Cons: Loss of acute senses, heightened metabolism (acute hunger and wasting away)

Or:

OPTION B

I can hear purple!

Pros: Heightened senses

Cons: Heightened metabolism (acute hunger and wasting away)

Bearing in mind most of the discussion up to now leans more towards option B whereas most of the initial/early thoughts point to option A.

Selected musings:

I have a mental image of after-battle feasts aboard the strike cruiser in orbit or at the fortress monastery. Come to think of it... if they had a high metabolism, they'd want to feast quite often...

>

As the marine ages the quicker the metabolism becoming eventually turning into a kind of wasting sickness and turning a marine into a bed ridden wreck doomed to die not fulufilling his duty[...] they would like to die a death worthy of rememberance and are more prone to taking chances on the field of battle knowning what is in store for them as they age,

To clarify the idea I was making, perhaps the intent of the tampering of the Space Wolf gene-seed is to remove the Canis Helix's flaws, while keeping its virtues. In other words, lose the wulfen while keeping the wolf-like senses. That's the intent, though obviously it'd be far too over the top to have them succeed at it. The heightened metabolism could be a byproduct, issued on by the larger amount of energy the tweaked Astartes physiology would burn in a shorter period of time. It'd be the first known flaw. The second known flaw is that this doesn't exactly stabilize. It doesn't balance out. As the Marines age, their senses heighten even further and their bodies burn even more energy in lockstep with the senses.

Plus, then you get skeletal giants crazed with supernatural Chaos hunger who twitch when a pin drops.

We have a Cursed Founding and a Space Wolf successor, which in itself is pretty odd. We have metabolic overdrive that makes the marines burn away into husks. We have senses that grow so strong as to find a drop of rain agonizing. We have the Chapter breaking down into packs when the eldest become too pained and weak to guide them.

Naturally, the Chapter begins seeking out a solution. They go to the AdMech, who begins dissecting them, and wants to put bionics in their brains or some other suitably mechanical fix. The Inquisition gets interested and becomes "concerned" about the signs of increasing madness among the Chapter. The other Astartes distance themselves, refusing to go into battle with the Cursed Chapter. And so forth.

In short, all normal, Imperial avenues start to close off to them, and they are forced to seek other solutions as they grow more and more desperate. The AdMech and the Inquisition start hounding them[...] Their crusade to find a cure while eluding the Inquisition becomes a desperate flight from Imperial authorities...

Then, at the brink of complete collapse, the sensory overload increasing across the Chapter at a daily rate, the Inquisition at their throats, all Imperial doors shut... That's when salvation presents itself. The true source of the salvation doesn't matter -- Chaos Undivided, the ubiquitous Ruinous Powers, an unnamed demon-lord -- whatever, ambiguity might be good here. Regardless, some harbinger of salvation appears to them at this moment of absolute crisis, maybe even in the guise of Russ himself, and offers them relief from all their suffering as long as they swear fealty to him/it, or do something else that essentially damns the Chapter to Chaos eternally. With no other alternative, they do.

Then the ironic twist: the cure is worse than the curse. The salvation is a reduction of their senses to less than normal human standards. Their eyesight is terrible, their hearing worse, their sense of smell completely gone. They have trouble holding things because they can't feel them in their hands, etc. But the worst part is: they can no longer hunt. The Wulfen may be gone from them, but the underlying lupine nature of the SW gene-seed cannot be denied. At their core, they are hunters, predators, wolves.

Think of all the examples of those interred in Dreadnoughts and how they loathe the loss of sensation that being interred brings. Even non-SW Dreadnoughts lament their inability to feel the blood of their enemies splashing on them, the scent of burning flesh, etc. Imagine how much worse a loss of sensation would be for a SW, a hunter of the wild, used to having their nostrils filled with the fear of their enemies, tasting their terror in the air, etc.

The Chapter finds now that only in service to the Ruinous Powers are they able to recapture a hint of their beloved hunt, their lost sensations. This need not be a sensation-for-sensation's-sake Slaanesh thing. Perhaps they even retain some degree of loyalty to the Emperor in their hearts, but the need to hunt, the need to re-experience the feeling of being a predator, being a wolf, always overcomes that loyalty.

There are any number of ways it can go, depending on who or what you have behind the "cure" and to who or what they swear fealty. You could have different packs that are used and manipulated in different ways. Some packs might try to remain loyal, but always end up devolving to Chaos for the thrill of the hunt. Other packs might turn whole-heatedly to the Ruinous Powers, their hatred of the Imperium for making them what they are and turning its back on them overwhelming. Some packs could turn to Slaanesh, seeking sensation, but others might find the thrill of the hunt strongest in seeking blood for the Blood God.

Once they have sold their souls for the cure, then all bets are off and anything is on the table.

There are Cursed Founding Marines who aren't afflicted by the Chapter curse in the same way - they're basically normal, but also quite unstable. They could be the ones to sell out to Chaos, when the rest of the Chapter is reduced to catatonic maniacs who scream when a pin drops. Seeing their friends, their mentors, etc, all suffering - and then Slaanesh shows up and promises to make their friends happy again, or Nurgle promises to take their pain away...

Provided we can nail down what we've got atm, then we can expand on areas we haven't yet touched. Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

I think what we got here is pretty damn meaty!

I also think Griph's summery is pretty spot on for how the chapter could have plausibly fallen:

Broken by misfortune, forsaken by those who were supposed to be their saviors, hunted by who they thought to be their friends, on the edge of dying - not in glorious combat with hated enemies, but a disgusting, dishonorable, lousy, pathetic death - a failure.

Then they catch a glimpse of light, a dash of hope… It says it founded their bloodline, it says it walked with the Emperor, it says the Great Wolf is about to return and it says it needs their help - it needs them to fight.

It might not be Russ, but still… Maybe they can be warriors again. Maybe they can once more hunt the enemies of Mankind.

Maybe they can even be heroes?

Sure it's a risk, sure it might not work, it might even make matters worse - but what else are they going to do? They have everything to win. What have they got to lose?

I like it <3

But then again, I'm still picturing them like gaunt, pink, power armoured, wolfish, skeleton versions of Captain Barbossa from Pirates of the Caribbean… I like that too <3

[Sanguine_Knight]

why does the cursed chapter never get to get rid of the curse without turning to Chaos. That to me is a much greater curse. Plus it seems a little cliché that they turn because that's what everyone likes to hear about. What's wrong with maybe finding an artifact or series of artifacts that help them cleanse the curse and they can remain loyal to The Emperor if not the Imperium. If they are declared renegade maybe its because said artifacts were coveted by the Mechanicum or Inquisition and there is resulting mayhem so they go the way of The Soul Drinkers minus the mutations. Just seems like everyone is in love with Chaos. Being a traitor is the easy way out. loyalty is a much better attribute to have since it is rarer and harder to maintain. I am new to this so my thinking may be flawed. Also I know my input comes very late but I just found this thread and find it interesting. I will say that the Slaanesh route is good because there is not enough out there dealing with him\her. I'm mainly observing but wanted to throw that out there.

[Olis]

Well, as a community project, the affiliation of the chapter was decided by means of discussion and consensus. As of the most current cliff-notes, the chapter has fallen, and now we're discussing the whys and wherefores of this situation. :) 

[Sanguine_Knight]

Has another thread started in that regard or is this the proper one? Plus I hope that you start your multi choice story up again. I was enjoying it.

[Olis]

Has another thread started in that regard or is this the proper one?

This one is the proper one, however, I will field the issue here and now to those that are reading: Does the currently involved Liber community wish to start up a new Liber thread to discuss the ins and outs of the Sons of Sköll and their downfall?

Plus I hope that you start your multi choice story up again. I was enjoying it.

I appreciate the kind words, brother. Perhaps I might, sometime in the new year...

[Conn Eremon]

Unless we want the Sons to be separated from this thread, such as for the purpose of perhaps hitting on another of many DIY faux pas, I don't see any reason why it cannot continue here.

[Sanguine_Knight]

Excellent! I think that the existing reasons for their fall are good. Also the appearance of a supposed savior is very Tzeentch like. Something that sends them over the edge even though they think they are doing what's right. The more they try to fix the problem the closer they get to damnation. My favorite angle is Slaanesh. I like the thought of them being able to howl through a Chaos powered voxcaster implanted in their throat or mutated into their mouths. Of course you would have the ubiquitous injection rigs dosing them with various stims and intoxicants.Hunting packs devoted to The Blood God are almost a necessity. I know Papa Nurgle would take away their pain but I don't see these guys sacrificing their wolf like attributes to become bloated pus filled slugs. The Wasting could result in a high number of Possessed Marines as daemonic intrusion would certainly "cure" their ailments. Just some thoughts.