Frost Axes

[Marshall Bretton]

Firstly apologies if this has come up before but i tried the search and couldn't find anything on it (im still getting the hang of this site so there probably is a topic somewhere)

 

are frost axes as pointless as they seem now?

 

for example wolf guard you can pay x points for a power weapon, so you can have an axe that is +2 str and ap 2 but i1

or for an extra 10 points you can have a frost axe which according to the faq gives you +2 str, ap2 and i1

 

it just seems to me that the frost axe is now a completely pointless piece of wargear, it is exactly the same as a power axe, only more expensive

 

is there something i am missing here?

 

Thanks

[Vash113]

A normal Power Axe is only +1 Strength. The Frost Axe is +2. The advantage is however very minor, the extra 1 point of strength, for the cost, is not going to be useful very often and for the same points a Power Fist is pretty unambiguously better.

 

Ultimately the problem is IMO that Axes are now "unwieldy" which makes no sense to me. If Unwieldy was more like the Bulky special rule I think it would work better, where there are multiple levels. Unwieldy is a -1 to Initiative, Very Unwieldy a -2 to Initiative and Extremely Unwieldy always strikes at Initiative 1. Thus Power Fists, Chainfists and Thunder Hammers could be Extremely Unwieldy while Axes could simply be Unwieldy or Very Unwieldy.

 

Striking at I1 with the same AP and cost but less strength does indeed make the Frost Axe kinda pointless. Power Axes and Force Axes still have some aplicability however as they have AP2 but at generally a lower cost than Power Fists, Chainfists or Thunder Hammers.

[dswanick]

are frost axes as pointless as they seem now?

 

is there something i am missing here?

Alone a Frost Axe is significantly inferior to a Power Fist and not worth the 10pt savings. A Frost Axe paired with a Pistol for the +1A on a low A model is almost as effective as a Power Fist against most models, and less expensive.

for example wolf guard you can pay x points for a power weapon, so you can have an axe that is +2 str and ap 2 but i1

or for an extra 10 points you can have a frost axe which according to the faq gives you +2 str, ap2 and i1

 

it just seems to me that the frost axe is now a completely pointless piece of wargear, it is exactly the same as a power axe, only more expensive

Not exactly. A normal Power Axe is +1S/AP2/Unwieldy while a Frost Axe is +2S/AP2/Unwieldy.

[Marshall Bretton]

ah my bad there, im being stupid with what a power axe does it seems.

 

still though, for usually 10 points it does seem pretty rubbish

[Anaraion]

A normal Power Axe is only +1 Strength. The Frost Axe is +2. The advantage is however very minor, the extra 1 point of strength, for the cost, is not going to be useful very often and for the same points a Power Fist is pretty unambiguously better.

 

Ultimately the problem is IMO that Axes are now "unwieldy" which makes no sense to me. If Unwieldy was more like the Bulky special rule I think it would work better, where there are multiple levels. Unwieldy is a -1 to Initiative, Very Unwieldy a -2 to Initiative and Extremely Unwieldy always strikes at Initiative 1. Thus Power Fists, Chainfists and Thunder Hammers could be Extremely Unwieldy while Axes could simply be Unwieldy or Very Unwieldy.

 

Striking at I1 with the same AP and cost but less strength does indeed make the Frost Axe kinda pointless. Power Axes and Force Axes still have some aplicability however as they have AP2 but at generally a lower cost than Power Fists, Chainfists or Thunder Hammers.

 

Brilliant.  It is so simple.  It is so common sense. 

 

I wish I had thought of it and I certainly wish GW had thought of it.

[Marshall Bretton]

i do quite like that idea actually, it makes sense as well, something like an axe does swing slower compared to a sword, but definitely faster than things like hammers, it would work really well as well i think.

 

so when we do eventually get a new dex what do we think the frost weapons will do? personally i think given that our chapter kind of specialise with axes that there should at least be less of an initiative punishment for using them

[montegue]

It's a bit frustrating because I want to model with axes but use Frost Blades to strike on initiative. My opponents will probably be fine with it, but RAW I have to call them Axes and swing last. I also can't model for warhammers because they would be considered power mauls, and I don't want that. So, I just swing last. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Wait, if the frost Axe is only -1 initiative, why is it such a bad weapon? I an understand it not being worth it if it was striking at i1 like the powerfist... but for some higher initiative models you could certainly get away with minus 1 initiative.. right? 

[jester262]

It strikes at init 1

[Grimtooth]

Power axes on Grey Hunters with a bolt pistol are pretty gravy.  Basically a hidden ap2 weapon wounding on a 2+ unless taken out by an IC with precision shot.  Frost axes are pretty ho-hum not with unweildy, but if I was low on points for powerfists, I could see me using them paired with a bolt pistol on WG.

[Ghostwolfalpha]

I find frost axes to be a waste, while power axes have their use. I like using axes on my wolves, but I keep them on my troops and a WG here and there. If an IC is going at I1, give them a fist. I like swords on WG personally, fluffwise it makes sense that leaders have swords and regular rank and file get axes. Swords have always been a status weapon.

 

While I feel a Frost blade on the right model can be great, the axe never seems worth the points.

[skeletoro]

Frost axes tend not to be worth it. They might be worth it on wolf guard terminators (if you could swap out the storm bolter for it) or on grey hunters (if they were able to take them) but you can't do either.

[Grimtooth]

I wonder if it wouldn't be bad in a group of PA WG either?

 

I mean we like a power axe in our GH packs because it kind of makes for a hidden ap2 weapon in the crowd.  Well a frost axe in a WG pack would be a hidden ap2 str2 weapon in the crowd because they are only characters when leading packs.  Again, only in the instant that you are looking to save some points and whatnot.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

@Ramses - Frost Axes in all cases are the same cost as power fists.  So I don't really see how they would be saving you an points.  The only bonus of the frost axe over the power fist is you can pair it with a pistol to get an extra attack.  A power fist you have to pair with another expensive "Specialist Weapon" to get another attack.

[Marshall Bretton]

i think in wolf guard they are cheaper than a fist, but not by much

[Russ Brother 92]

i think in wolf guard they are cheaper than a fist, but not by much

 

Sadly not - considering most people (myself included) run WG in TDA they cost the same - at which point it's much better to either not spend more points (and have a Storm Bolter) or spend a few points to have a challenger (Fist and Claw) - although even in Power Armour, Fist and both Frost Axe/Sword are all the same (quite hefty) price tag which is a shame - so it would be nice (however unlikely) that they do something like allowing Frost Weapons only -1 Initiative, after all these are meant to be rare, exceptionally well crafted weapons made by only the greatest of Iron Priests - so a suitable disadvantage (you're striking slower than a regular sword/cc weapon) but due to the craftsmanship (and skill required to wield one) you're faster than an untrained warrior with an axe or power fist...

[SamaNagol]

They should just strike at +1S Ap2 swinging at normal Ini for the same points as a Fist

 

Hardly game breaking given Sammael, Khârn and Axe of Blind Fury

[Dam13n]

The problem with that comparison is that Sammael and Khârn are special characters with unique wargear and the Axe of Blind Fury is a unique daemon weapon (1 per army), only available to HQs.

 

Frost Axes aren't unique, therefore you can have (potentially) lots of them. To have them as +1S Ap2 striking at Initiative would be IMHO somewhat broken. It would also make the frost blade entirely pointless.

 

If they adjusted the points costs, that might resolve the issue. ie Frost Weapon 20pts, Power Fist 25pts, Thunder Hammer 30pts. That might give a slightly stronger case for the Frost Weapon when compared to the Power Fist.

[Wispy]

I just count my frost axes as swords. Works for me.

 

 

I wish the axes were competitive options, though.

[SamaNagol]

I'm back to point out the 20pt MASTER CRAFTED AP2 S+1 weapons in the Daemons book :)

 

Or the 10pt version that strikes at user S. That anyone can get. lol

[Russ Brother 92]

I'm back to point out the 20pt MASTER CRAFTED AP2 S+1 weapons in the Daemons book

Or the 10pt version that strikes at user S. That anyone can get. lol

The only problem with this is that they're daemons - now it'll depend on local meta how badly this affects games, but in my area I'm lucky enough to know only 1 guy who plays daemons - so something like this isn't a problem - and whilst YES one army shouldn't be UBERPOWERFULWEARETHEBEST etc. it will regularly be this way - look at what happened when C:GKs was released, or then when our own codex was etc. etc.

Back OT - I just think we should have levels of instability, so a Frost Axe due to it's exceptional craftsmanship, and the fact that only the Elite can utilise them would be far more stable compared to a regular power axe - so Power Axe I1 AP3 and everyone can use VS Frost Axe I2 AP2 and only Elite/HQ can use... this gives a good degree of difficulty etc. to use either, still makes you far slower than swords/staves and regular boots/fists but faster than either an untrained warrior or a hulking hammer/fist.

[Squark]

Daemons are a bit of a glass cannon at the moment, so I don't think a weapon like that is too big a deal.

[MeatGrinder]

Axes are just poor at the moment. For +1S, the loss in I is just too much. I really dont think they are worth the points when compared to fists. Especially on TDA, where you don't get the extra attack, its worth investing in a fist. I dont even bother with them in GH squads, best to save the points and just go with the mark.

[skeletoro]

It's not the +1 str you're doing it for, it's for the ap2. Even on a TDA WG, it's more damage per point spent than a fist. Against infantry that is.

 

Edit: hang on meat grinder, were you talking about frost axes? I assumed power axes in my response, as grey hunters cannot take frost weapons.

[MeatGrinder]

It's not the +1 str you're doing it for, it's for the ap2. Even on a TDA WG, it's more damage per point spent than a fist. Against infantry that is.

 

Edit: hang on meat grinder, were you talking about frost axes? I assumed power axes in my response, as grey hunters cannot take frost weapons.

 

I was actually referring to axes in general, frost axes suffer the same drawbacks as power axes.

 

How do you calculate damage per point? On TDA WG frost axes cost the same as a fist anyway and yu're comparing s8 to s6, as both strike last at ap2. For the power axe, is +3S equivalent to 10 points? I think thats a hell of a bargain. 10 points to turn wounding on 3s into 2s, with instant death for MEQs and the ability to damage AV 12.

 

However, if youre in power armour, I do think the axes still work well, as you get the extra attack, however as most of our WG are in TDA, and MotW is just better, you'll probably never take the axe in GH squads unless you have tons of points floating around.